[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Amazing how quickly expectations turn. The Irish boys on here were very sanguine about this tournament until last game, and most learned English posters were fearing the Dublin fixture a long way off. I don't know that much has changed - Ireland have PLENTY to play for. It certainly didn't hold them back in 2009(?). What a chance to get on the lions game. There's VERY few Irish guys likely to start with no chance of touring. Toner? Earls? Even Ringrose has a chance to get on the plane. Only on one occasion has an away side this tournament if you forget about Italy. I think it's 50/50.

 

[welshoptimist]

Amazing how quickly expectations turn. The Irish boys on here were very sanguine about this tournament until last game, and most learned English posters were fearing the Dublin fixture a long way off. I don't know that much has changed - Ireland have PLENTY to play for. It certainly didn't hold them back in 2009(?). What a chance to get on the lions game. There's VERY few Irish guys likely to start with no chance of touring. Toner? Earls? Even Ringrose has a chance to get on the plane. Only on one occasion has an away side this tournament if you forget about Italy. I think it's 50/50.

yeah this will be a slog fest , think the forwards are going to rip lumps out of each other, should be fun

 

[munstermuffin]

Sco beat Ire by 5, we beat Sco by 40. Let's make some allowance for playing away so Eng by 30.

As there's nothing at stake for Ireland their mindset might have a big bearing. I'll be fairly confident if we don't let them get away in the first half.

This is one where the performance doesn't matter and the result is all. 0 - 3 will be fine. Could be a behind the sofa job.

Against England there is always something at stake. .

On it I don't know is it Cheltenham or its been a rubbish 6Nations for us or simply that majority of fans have become a bit disillusioned that I've met. But it just seems there isn't a huge buzz for game. Maybe that'll change as it gets closer. Think obviously Lions will be a bit of a focus and Euro QFs. Equally QFs could see guys slip 1 eye on that. Hard to tell maybe the low key is good

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

From a player psychology point of view I wonder where Injuries come into this. Ultimately despite what I said there's nothing to win or lose in terms of the tournament, and if you've already done enough to make the lions, the biggest risk is injury. I wonder how that will make players respond, who desperately want to make the lions. You have to feel for any player who gets injured at this point.

 

[munstermuffin]

From a player psychology point of view I wonder where Injuries come into this. Ultimately despite what I said there's nothing to win or lose in terms of the tournament, and if you've already done enough to make the lions, the biggest risk is injury. I wonder how that will make players respond, who desperately want to make the lions. You have to feel for any player who gets injured at this point.

I think that'd kick in when in a club game that you know you won't mean alot. Like being fair except Murray there is noone really nailed on to tour or be a starter. For example Farrell may know he's certain to tour but not yo get near test team. Equally guys like Itoje or any of backrowers may be able to nail a test spot but equally play themselves off plane. That's how fine marguns are

 

[Scotty]

I'm going to get quite drunk ahead of time and record the match to watch properly afterwards. My nerves are shot just thinking about this one.

Start Billy, Watson, bench Daly (he's amazing but I loathe the lack of bench cover - especially after what happened to Scotland), I'd even start Care to boot Youngs in the britches and pray that it kept him in form for more than one match by bringing him on after HT (mostly joking)

Yeh i get you its alwats a heavy one especially with the big game last haha year or 2 agot i spent from midday in the pub, had to watch it the next day again cos i remembered non but the end score haha.

If you start billy you start mako cos they play well together. Teo 12/ 13 cover watson 11 14 15 cover so daly starting isnt the worst thinking about it plus he has earned the start spot, i want watson to earn it back plus lack of game time means daly is a better choice. Watson/nowell hands down best wingers in AP.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think that'd kick in when in a club game that you know you won't mean alot. Like being fair except Murray there is noone really nailed on to tour or be a starter. For example Farrell may know he's certain to tour but not yo get near test team. Equally guys like Itoje or any of backrowers may be able to nail a test spot but equally play themselves off plane. That's how fine marguns are

Murray isn't a certain starter for me . He is certain for the plane though . Same as Itoje . Even if he has an absolute stinker he will be on the plane ..... even though I'd rather he wasn't and was captain for our (more important imo) tour in Argentina

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yeh i get you its alwats a heavy one especially with the big game last haha year or 2 agot i spent from midday in the pub, had to watch it the next day again cos i remembered non but the end score haha.

If you start billy you start mako cos they play well together. Teo 12/ 13 cover watson 11 14 15 cover so daly starting isnt the worst thinking about it plus he has earned the start spot, i want watson to earn it back plus lack of game time means daly is a better choice. Watson/nowell hands down best wingers in AP.

On your comment about the Vunipolas, is that true? I've seen it written a few times, and I could be wrong, but I can't remember a time when I've seen them play and they've particularly accommodated each other. They're 2 quality players, but this idea that they play particularly well when together isn't one that I've seen evidence of.

 

[munstermuffin]

Murray isn't a certain starter for me . He is certain for the plane though . Same as Itoje . Even if he has an absolute stinker he will be on the plane ..... even though I'd rather he wasn't and was captain for our (more important imo) tour in Argentina

I don't know. Just glancing it seemed Murray is nailed on as starter. And I've seen Itoje mentioned as been an unlucky 1 to miss out.
On 9 though I personally think it'll take alot to change Gatland having Murray at 9 and Webb at 21

 

[Scotty]

On your comment about the Vunipolas, is that true? I've seen it written a few times, and I could be wrong, but I can't remember a time when I've seen them play and they've particularly accommodated each other. They're 2 quality players, but this idea that they play particularly well when together isn't one that I've seen evidence of.

They have experienced together for sarries and england and they play well together. Ive noticed it when you have the power and ball carrying of billy and ball carrying and surprising handling of mako they complicate each other well. Spose i dont know if it is a direct compliment too each other but both on the pitch brings alot to the team IMO.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

They have experienced together for sarries and england and they play well together. Ive noticed it when you have the power and ball carrying of billy and ball carrying and surprising handling of mako they complicate each other well. Spose i dont know if it is a direct compliment too each other but both on the pitch brings alot to the team IMO.

Don't disagree that they both bring a lot to the team, but just don't think they play particularly well together, definitely not enough to warrant starting one just because the other is.

This isn't a counter argument, more just wondering out loud, but have the 2 of them actually played much rugby together? Billy only moved to Sarries in '13, Kruis has been there since '09. So surely, unless the 2 of them played together much growing up which is unlikely due to different age groups, Mako would actually have a better partnership with Kruis, or George, or Farrell, than he would with Billy. Just a thought.

 

[corny]

Against England there is always something at stake. .

I don't care for the 'stopping England' narrative tbh. I'd actually like to see a NH team hold the record. Not at our expense on Saturday obviously.

For us its about getting our performance level right and sorting out the obvious weaknesses exposed in by Wales. There should be a backlash but not because England might enjoy the day if they win.

If the players are relying on that sort of ****e to motivate them we're going backwards.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't care for the 'stopping England' narrative tbh. I'd actually like to see a NH team hold the record. Not at our expense on Saturday obviously.

For us its about getting our performance level right and sorting out the obvious weaknesses exposed in by Wales. There should be a backlash but not because England might enjoy the day if they win.

If the players are relying on that sort of ****e to motivate them we're going backwards.

I think just that. The players seem to be gone flat. Has Schmidts voice gone stale. I don't know like for Leinster lads 8 years or whatever is long time. My point was usually vs England it's a game that is hyped and fams excited but everything seems flat. Even media seem to be just going through motions.
I'm on record as saying for first time in long time I'm not too bothered. All I care is Munster lads return safely and fit. If England get record they deserve it. Some feat to do 2 Slams on back of RWC shambles. And I believe if they win Saturday they'll do 2 Calendar years unbeaten I feel.
I've become bit disillusioned with Ireland. Since August 2015 we had a poor world cup I feel and 2 poor 6 Nations. Yes we had 1 or 2 good wins sprinkled in bit overall it's been bad run. I'm just hoping come June it begins an upward curve

 

[NickBD]

I don't know. Just glancing it seemed Murray is nailed on as starter. And I've seen Itoje mentioned as been an unlucky 1 to miss out.
On 9 though I personally think it'll take alot to change Gatland having Murray at 9 and Webb at 21

I know it's not a Lions thread but I personally think Murray has to start with Sexton, team with 4 nations be nice to have some continuity. Plus I think he been the most consistent 9 over 12 months for me.

Itoje has to be one of the first names on team sheet for me, thought of him missing out is daft to me.

 

[munstermuffin]

I know it's not a Lions thread but I personally think Murray has to start with Sexton, team with 4 nations be nice to have some continuity. Plus I think he been the most consistent 9 over 12 months for me.

Itoje has to be one of the first names on team sheet for me, thought of him missing out is daft to me.

I won't derail here too much. On Itoje comment. I thought I seen he'd miss out by few. He's superb player and if he travels there'd be no complaints. My point is more there is a lot to focus guys.

On game it will be interesting to see how we cope with them running. England are great runners and get it wide where they've gas. We defend very narrow so may be issue there

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think just that. The players seem to be gone flat. Has Schmidts voice gone stale. I don't know like for Leinster lads 8 years or whatever is long time. My point was usually vs England it's a game that is hyped and fams excited but everything seems flat. Even media seem to be just going through motions.I'm on record as saying for first time in long time I'm not too bothered. All I care is Munster lads return safely and fit. If England get record they deserve it. Some feat to do 2 Slams on back of RWC shambles. And I believe if they win Saturday they'll do 2 Calendar years unbeaten I feel.I've become bit disillusioned with Ireland. Since August 2015 we had a poor world cup I feel and 2 poor 6 Nations. Yes we had 1 or 2 good wins sprinkled in bit overall it's been bad run. I'm just hoping come June it begins an upward curve

Top a RWC group, become the only side since England's World Cup winners to beat all Tri nations side in a year, lose only one home game to the best team in the world, hold 4th in the world rankings = "bad run" because we lost in Cardiff.

How do you defend Declan Kidney who apart from '09 and a win over Australia in '11 (losing a QF without any significant injuries) couldn't beat a SH side or win more than three six nations games, losing to worse Scottish and English sides and Italy, and call this a bad run and be disillusioned?

I don't care about the hype this week, we messed up a chance to be fighting for a slam with a **** first half in Edinburgh and two individual mistakes in Cardiff, that stings but we have a chance to end the two most impressive streaks international rugby has ever seen within 5 months of each other, if you're not pumped by Friday and still only care about Munster maybe you should adopt New Zealand as your national team because their the only ones who can live up to the stamdards you're setting.

Schmidt needs to take this team to a place where his own players stupidity doesn't lose him test matches because that's what has cost him this year and nothing else. Its a big step, maybe impossible, but it'll have to be met so he can make the step up from the best coach Ireland has ever had to... Well actually he only has more rugby history to make on this island!

 

[stormmaster1]

I don't think Murray is nailed on to start. I don't think there is a single nailed on starter- there is just too much competition and form is variable. Back in the autumn Youngs was playing well enough to make most test sides, but Murray had an extra edge- he was sublime. Neither have continued the same form- if either does they would start. I think Gatland will have competition for all 23 positions, he may have ideas about who is most likely starter, but form could affect it quite easily. (for me Murray, Billy V, George North adn CJ Stander are the only ones who would be guaranteed starters if not injured/in poor form)

 

[munstermuffin]

Top a RWC group, become the only side since England's World Cup winners to beat all Tri nations side in a year, lose only one home game to the best team in the world, hold 4th in the world rankings = "bad run" because we lost in Cardiff.

How do you defend Declan Kidney who apart from '09 and a win over Australia in '11 (losing a QF without any significant injuries) couldn't beat a SH side or win more than three six nations games, losing to worse Scottish and English sides and Italy, and call this a bad run and be disillusioned?

I don't care about the hype this week, we messed up a chance to be fighting for a slam with a **** first half in Edinburgh and two individual mistakes in Cardiff, that stings but we have a chance to end the two most impressive streaks international rugby has ever seen within 5 months of each other, if you're not pumped by Friday and still only care about Munster maybe you should adopt New Zealand as your national team because their the only ones who can live up to the stamdards you're setting.

Schmidt needs to take this team to a place where his own players stupidity doesn't lose him test matches because that's what has cost him this year and nothing else. Its a big step, maybe impossible, but it'll have to be met so he can make the step up from the best coach Ireland has ever had to... Well actually he only has more rugby history to make on this island!

Again it's all just opinion Alpha. I didn't make it a Kidney vs Schmidt thread. I rank Kidney high as I do Schmidt. Since World Cup I just think we've been poor. The win ratio and performances surely show that. Yes we topped pool but that just meant beating a poor French team. As I acknowledged we've had wins sprinkled in. You might not agree I just think it's been poor return.
On Kidney again I don't remeber defending him here. I agree he had poor finish too and pretty certain we I've said he deserved to go.
On end and it's been common. You seem to blame alot on players and stupidity. But it starts from top is my views. Yeah the players share some blame but well as I say selections like McFadden simply bring bit of heat on.

And on caring about Munster that comment. I've met some Leinster fans who are same. Just not excited for national team at moment. And from my own views what is there to be pumped on.
We are playing shocking
We are selecting and using bench awfully
We are looking average.

I'm not setting high standards as stats show if we are so attractive why is Schmidt's win record near enough same as Eddie O Sullivan, and take out NZ win Declan Kidney has as good a record vs SH team. And Schmidts average tries per game is less than other 2 considerably.
But my point isn't at Schmidt simply as I said for all the hype we actually aren't that great. Not that bad but we are bigging ourselves up and as I said there is no evidence to say any different.
We beat NZ. A great 1 off win but being honest if we played 10 times they'd probably win 9.
SA away it was their worst team in a long time. We won 1/3. Point is regardless of coach Ireland can produe 1 offs it's stringing together is issue. Since RWC we haven't.
And record for Schmidt vs England is not great

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Again it's all just opinion Alpha. I didn't make it a Kidney vs Schmidt thread. I rank Kidney high as I do Schmidt. Since World Cup I just think we've been poor. The win ratio and performances surely show that. Yes we topped pool but that just meant beating a poor French team. As I acknowledged we've had wins sprinkled in. You might not agree I just think it's been poor return.
On Kidney again I don't remeber defending him here. I agree he had poor finish too and pretty certain we I've said he deserved to go.
On end and it's been common. You seem to blame alot on players and stupidity. But it starts from top is my views. Yeah the players share some blame but well as I say selections like McFadden simply bring bit of heat on.

And on caring about Munster that comment. I've met some Leinster fans who are same. Just not excited for national team at moment. And from my own views what is there to be pumped on.
We are playing shocking
We are selecting and using bench awfully
We are looking average.

I'm not setting high standards as stats show if we are so attractive why is Schmidt's win record near enough same as Eddie O Sullivan, and take out NZ win Declan Kidney has as good a record vs SH team. And Schmidts average tries per game is less than other 2 considerably.
But my point isn't at Schmidt simply as I said for all the hype we actually aren't that great. Not that bad but we are bigging ourselves up and as I said there is no evidence to say any different.
We beat NZ. A great 1 off win but being honest if we played 10 times they'd probably win 9.
SA away it was their worst team in a long time. We won 1/3. Point is regardless of coach Ireland can produe 1 offs it's stringing together is issue. Since RWC we haven't.
And record for Schmidt vs England is not great

And I'd tear those Leinster fans a new one too.

Two sides have managed to streak results together, we've beaten one. Outside of that Ireland and Wales are the only sides with a better than 50% record in tier1 since the world cup. You've also just attempted to dimiss the two most historic test match wins in Irish history, easy to say they're one off wins but its not true, we beat SA in a one off test match AND we beat NZ in a one off test match AND we beat Australia in a one off test match, in this time we capped 15 debutants...

Performance starts from the top yes, Paddy Jackson costing two tries for not following the degensive system isn't the coaching staffs fault, Robbie Henshaw illegally entering a maul isn't either and Neither is CJ Stander or Keith Earls dropping 1st and second phase ball in the opponents 22. The only diffetence between now and Autumn is the form of players, its shown where the game plan needs changed but in no way calls the coach into question.

I'm finished with this now but a lot of perspective is needed in Irish rugby at the moment.

 

[munstermuffin]

And I'd tear those Leinster fans a new one too.

Two sides have managed to streak results together, we've beaten one. Outside of that Ireland and Wales are the only sides with a better than 50% record in tier1 since the world cup. You've also just attempted to dimiss the two most historic test match wins in Irish history, easy to say they're one off wins but its not true, we beat SA in a one off test match AND we beat NZ in a one off test match AND we beat Australia in a one off test match, in this time we capped 15 debutants...

Performance starts from the top yes, Paddy Jackson costing two tries for not following the degensive system isn't the coaching staffs fault, Robbie Henshaw illegally entering a maul isn't either and Neither is CJ Stander or Keith Earls dropping 1st and second phase ball in the opponents 22. The only diffetence between now and Autumn is the form of players, its shown where the game plan needs changed but in no way calls the coach into question.

I'm finished with this now but a lot of perspective is needed in Irish rugby at the moment.

Again it's only opinions. Again I acknowledged them but think there was hint of luck. You think differently and that's fair enough. You think we have been good since RWC I think we've been poor and played awful rugby.
On caps alot were enforced and I'm still not cinvinced on Schmidt's selections but again its a debatable issue.
Again you put alot on players I put alot more from top. Both fair.
If you look at stats I'm critical as we have 1 of worst try scoring rates vs Tier 1 teams in Schmidt's time. Average 1.59 tries a game. That is because his style is more keeping score ticking. But again while there is alot in support of Schmidt there is alot equally getting fed up of him. I'm in middle but that is just it. His record against 4 teams in tri nations and 6N teams excluding Italy is 54.54% I wouldn't consider that great. Not poor but not worthy of hype. With a less than 50% rate vs Eng Wales and NZ with 50% vs SA.
Again it's opinions and well just personally despite the win over NZ I think the last 2 years have been poor. Especially last 2 6Nations. And I think we are overhyping South African win. Like yes it was great to win over there but equally they're a poor team but you can only beat whats in front of you

You might disagree and I respect that. The fact is alot think like me and alot think like you.
And take on 50% record since RWC
We've played 16 won 8. Thats 50% win rate.
Take out Itay and Canada and it's played 13 won 5. That's 38.46%
Loose to England and it's 35.71%.