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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: France vs Wales (18/03/2017)

Some serious fallout possible if France are found guilty of manufacturing Antonio's 'injury'. The obvious precedent of coach + doctor + player clearly deceiving the officials would be 'bloodgate', which resulted in some hefty bans for all concerned. There was more premeditation involved there (the buying of blood capsules well in advance of the game etc.). The HIA is there to safeguard the players, if it's been used solely as a way of making a tactical substitution then that puts doubt in the whole process, and undermines player safety moving forwards.

My gut feeling is that this was the case. Nothing looked right about the process:

- no obvious collision for Antonio to suffer a head knock.
- member of French coaching staff illegally speaks to the doctor.
- Slimani warming up on the touchline well before Antonio coming off.
- Antonio answering Barnes that he was fine after first appearing a little unwilling to answer.
- Doctor initially a little cagey in answering Barnes' questions.
- No HIA carried out on the pitch, which is protocol.
- Antonio trudging off down the tunnel alone, where was the doctor now?
- Antonio appearing to hold his stomach.
- Noves unable to give an answer as to what was wrong with Antonio in post match.

This could prove costly for anyone involved from the French management (Noves must have known?), the doctor and Antonio himself.

Altogether a right farce.

It was truly farcical - I mean it's as though they weren't even bothered to pretend It was legit. Sometimes in sport you have to stop yourself and ask whether it's really a proportionate reaction and it really is not worth the win if the fallout is as big as it could be. I hope nothing sticks to Noves because he's a good coach doing exactly what France need right now.

If you're being devils advocate you might highlight that uncontested scrum have been manipulated for a good deal of time and not much fuss has been made about it but still..
 
This game was a culmination of everything wrong as Wayne Barnes as a ref. Quite easily the worst referee in the history of the game in my opinion.

The Wayne Barnes show, pedantic & pompous, his interpretations of the rules bring the game into disrepute. This highlighted all his short comings as an official. I really hope he hangs the whistle up soon. I'm beyond fatigued of seeing that mug of his.
 
As NZder I appreciate you never really had to watch Steve Walsh at his absolute worst. But Barnes has never dropped his levels of sheer one-sided interepretation of the laws.

Barnes didn't have a good game especially with the deliberate knock ons but no worse than every other ref has ever had. Nigel Owens made some apalling decisions when we toured yourselves.
 
As NZder I appreciate you never really had to watch Steve Walsh at his absolute worst. But Barnes has never dropped his levels of sheer one-sided interepretation of the laws.

Barnes didn't have a good game especially with the deliberate knock ons but no worse than every other ref has ever had. Nigel Owens made some apalling decisions when we toured yourselves.

I have two issues with Barmes. I think, at international level, he tends to go into a game with ideas of what teams are going to do. Ireland will illegally slow the ball down, France will be cynical etc... I've seen it quite a bit where he's gone out with a pre-emptive view that a team will do something and he kills them for it, Walsh was the same. He also hasn't a clue how to use yellow cards, its either for something he sees as very cynical or for three rapid fire penalties inbthe opposition 22, nothing else, Wales deserved at least two more yellows in their last two matches but managed to escape because they managed to put a little bit of time between penalties.

Other than that he can be frustratingly strict but I'm not going to criticise someone for enforcing the laws. I'd give him 8/10 for the game in Cardiff and 4/10 for France, he tends to be closer to 8's most of the time.
 
The difference is Walsh at his very worst (and I'll say just before his retirement he was a fine ref) would be seeing things that weren't happening.

I don't like to moan about past games (especially game we didn't serverve to win regardless) but in the 2013 Wales game I'll never get over the image of Walsh accusing Youngs of moving from his mark. Youngs being completely bemused (I mean genuinely other than typical front row bemusement) trying his damnest by setting up on the mark before crouch and then being told off by Walsh for being cheeky.
Walsh had got it so far into his head that England cheat at scrums that it was clear he was going to penalise England regardless of what was happening.

I think most refs go into a game with some level of bias of what they are looking for from certain team at least with Barnes it's usually the right call (he had a really poor game Saturday).
 
As NZder I appreciate you never really had to watch Steve Walsh at his absolute worst. But Barnes has never dropped his levels of sheer one-sided interepretation of the laws.

Barnes didn't have a good game especially with the deliberate knock ons but no worse than every other ref has ever had. Nigel Owens made some apalling decisions when we toured yourselves.

As an NZer I most certainly did have to endure Walsh at his worst. He was absolutely terrible. But not nearly as bad as Barnes.

Unlike yourself, I don't have a hard time admitting when a compatriot is quite obviously crap.
 
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Walsh had got it so far into his head that England cheat at scrums that it was clear he was going to penalise England regardless of what was happening.

Don't worry, Barnes returned the favour with the All Blacks, he thought all of our players were cheats and Richie McCaw was the devil himself.

:lol:

Some of these are amazing, Walsh at his very best as well!

 
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McCaw is lucky he got away with as much as he did. Great player, but he got away with a lot which is really an attribution towards his ability.
 
I wasn't trying to be rude. It's just that Richie McCaw discussions can often turn sour & would go wildly off topic.

Sorry, I'm just used to sports fans considering saying their favourite player sometimes got away with breaking rules is the same as saying they got away with a heinous crime.
 
I think most refs go into a game with some level of bias of what they are looking for from certain team at least with Barnes it's usually the right call (he had a really poor game Saturday).

Getting wildly off topic here, but I have a feeling that this sort of behaviour is actively encouraged. I remember reading an interview with a then up and coming Luke Pearce, he said that part of his preparation for a match was to watch videos of previous matches featuring sides he would be taking control of in order to know who and what to look out for. Shortly afterwards, I watched him give a straight card in a National 1 derby game after the sort of scuffle that at the time I felt warranted a talking to for both captains. I thought that part of the reason for the decision was a mindset to not bottle anything in what was for him at the time a big game, but I was left to wonder if the decision would have been different if it hadn't involved a player with a reputation for foul play. FWIW, the decision left my team playing 14 men for most of the game, so I don't have an axe to grind.

I hate this idea that referees need predetermination and the implication that they're not capable of making the correct decision based purely on what's in front of them.In certain legal realms, they'd be struck off for using this kind of decision process!

In international rugby, given the access that coaches have to referees, it's an area that needs to be watched carefully.

- - - Updated - - -

Some serious fallout possible if France are found guilty of manufacturing Antonio's 'injury'. The obvious precedent of coach + doctor + player clearly deceiving the officials would be 'bloodgate', which resulted in some hefty bans for all concerned. There was more premeditation involved there (the buying of blood capsules well in advance of the game etc.). The HIA is there to safeguard the players, if it's been used solely as a way of making a tactical substitution then that puts doubt in the whole process, and undermines player safety moving forwards.

My gut feeling is that this was the case. Nothing looked right about the process:

- no obvious collision for Antonio to suffer a head knock.
- member of French coaching staff illegally speaks to the doctor.
- Slimani warming up on the touchline well before Antonio coming off.
- Antonio answering Barnes that he was fine after first appearing a little unwilling to answer.
- Doctor initially a little cagey in answering Barnes' questions.
- No HIA carried out on the pitch, which is protocol.
- Antonio trudging off down the tunnel alone, where was the doctor now?
- Antonio appearing to hold his stomach.
- Noves unable to give an answer as to what was wrong with Antonio in post match.

This could prove costly for anyone involved from the French management (Noves must have known?), the doctor and Antonio himself.

Altogether a right farce.

Great post. All your points are relevant, a couple more I would add:

Was the other French prop warming up at the same time as Slimani? You could make a case that it's prudent to have them both ready if required (assuming he didn't go off injured), but this is shot down if not. Also, how long do you have to perform an HIA? If they went over time, then the French medical team need to demonstrate that he did indeed fail the test.

Here's a post I made about handling this on another forum:

Since the event, I've been pondering how this should be investigated. The best that I can come up with is that the French medical team should be asked to explain why they thought that Antonio had received a head injury. The cynic in me suspects that if this approach is taken, the medical team will cite something spotted by one of their eagle eyed staff which was inexplicably missed by the TV cameras. Hopefully he appears on one camera or another so the validity of this response can be tested.


I've been back and watched from the scrum around 76 minutes onward. Obviously Antonio isn't in shot all the time, but the ball is. During that time, by my count, he doesn't touch the ball or make a tackle. He is involved (by my count on one viewing) in one maul and five rucks. By the time he arrives at all six breakdowns, the ball is static, he makes little impact and there is no evidence of head trauma. In pseudo-legal terms, I would assert that either there was no reasonable cause to suspect head injury during this period or that the head injury occurred before this time period. If the latter is the case, there should be a case to answer as to why he was allowed to play on for so long before ordering an assessment. Going back further into the game could make the medics look more remiss, but given iPlayer and a smartphone, as my resources, it's all I was going to do.
 
Funnily enough, I thought Barnes refereed the extra time quite well. He obviously knew he was under pressure and a win by anybody would be very closely scrutinised. He followed the rules of the game to the letter, I believe.

Ironically, it was the first 80 minutes that I thought he was poor in, and that entire period has been largely forgotten.

Overall, I felt France were the better side, especially their forwards. We were lucky Halfpenny was a metronome as we didn't really deserve to be winning that game after 80 minutes.

A disappointing campaign for Wales. Tight margins. We beat Italy easily and the Scots beat us easily ..... but every other game could have gone the other way. We could have won against England and France, and the Irish could have won against us. The trick is to not be in tight games, and I think you have to take more risks to score more points. Good 6N overall for entertainment though and congratulations to England for being deserving winners.

I'm not one for criticising Howley, he has been a wonderful servant for Welsh rugby all his life and he is learning on the job. I'd like us to have a Welsh coach rather than an import, so building up his experience is better than just bringing in another antipodean at the expense of our own coaching development.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39488240

France's 81st-minute replacement of prop Uini Atonio by Rabah Slimani in their 20-18 Six Nations win against Wales is to be investigated further.Slimani had already been taken off but referee Wayne Barnes allowed him to return after France's team doctor said Atonio needed a head injury assessment.
Slimani's return coincided with a series of scrums on the Wales line, and France finally won in the 100th minute.
The tournament's Untoward Incident Review Group is to review the matter.
 
This game was a culmination of everything wrong as Wayne Barnes as a ref. Quite easily the worst referee in the history of the game in my opinion.

The Wayne Barnes show, pedantic & pompous, his interpretations of the rules bring the game into disrepute. This highlighted all his short comings as an official. I really hope he hangs the whistle up soon. I'm beyond fatigued of seeing that mug of his.

His performance in this game was so bad that they even put it in his Wiki page. But overall I think people tend to go over his performance with a stronger microscope because of the 2007 RWC quarterfinal in Cardiff.
 

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