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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: Wales v Ireland (11/02/2017)

It's hard to call. The glories of winning back-to-back 6ns in 14/15, first win over NZ, first win in SA + a nice win over Australia after vs 2 bad 6N, a pretty disappointing world cup. I would say his credit will is totally dependent on next year's 6N, at which point it may be too late to change coach seeing as the WC would be the year after, though that didn't stop Cheika from reaching the final...

I dunno. Oddly enough I'm not that gutted about this result. Of course it's disappointing, but I always thought this would be our hardest fixture and as soon as we lost to Scotland I felt we'd lost it. It was a fair match and I'm genuinely happy to see Wales play well again, it must mean so much to the players and fans. I saw one older Welsh fan at the end with some teary eyes, touched me a bit. The power of sport. They've gotten a lot of stick lately but as Schmidt likes to say often himself, rugby is a game of fine margins and their losses to England and Scotland were by no means indicators that they had become a ****e team. Definitely not where they used to be but still a quality side. I think it's part of the reason why this result doesn't sting as much - I feel Ireland and Wales are in a pretty similar position, main difference being Ireland have introduced a few more caps. Both teams are still great sides who lack consistency.

All in all, a good match. It was a good match for the 6N as a tournament. It was nice to see Marmion up the tempo when he came on - Schmidt should be more willing to use him. Similarly, I think it may be time to start swapping out of some of the old reliables. It may be a tough pill to swallow but Best is past his prime IMO, and SOB is not the beast he used to be. I'm in favour for experimenting with POM and VDF some more.

I agree with this for the most part. 5 months ago we looked like the best the NH had to offer and now we are middle of the road, losing Payne and Trimble is the difference. We were a great side playing high percentage rugby but we, like everyone apart from England and NZ, don't have the depth to play like we want all the time. Its clear that their is a change in the way Schmidt is coaching this side, he's coaching it for guys like Sweetnam and Byrne to come on to the wongs in place of the in form but consistently average Earls and Zebo who is a disaster due to his inconsistency, his mistake is making the change in tactic without the change of player. SOB, Best, RK and Ryan are on their last legs in green jerseys and their absence will suit the style even further. We'll change significantly in the next 12 months like we did the last and if we keep peaking in autumn time we'll have little to complain about in 2019. Inaccuracies are killing us right now, they won't last, we'll win next week too.

Well done Wales!
 
As a neutral England supporter, I can only say that Ireland got their butt kicked severely today. Whether they can recover in time after we stuff the Jocks is a different issue. Excellent game though. Enjoyed watching it. I would have given Stander the MoM but heh, it never goes to the losing side.
 
I still think Schmidt is a cracking coach but the last 15 months have really cast a new light on who might the balance of power of the coaching staff when he was at Clermont with Cotter. Cotter has been exemplary in blooding and integrating new talent, bringing the average age of the squad down ane adjusting play style to changes in rules.

As recently as last June I'd never have entertained the thought that Cotter was maybe the senior coach on merit.
 
If Henshaw entered that maul behind Rory Best Ireland would have gone on to win the game.
The timing of the disallowed try, and the change in the swing of the pendulum of momentum took the game away from Ireland.
What was Sexton doing in the bin for 10 minutes leaving his team rudderless.??
Better to have conceded the try.
 
Surely you mean you 'think' Ireland would have gone on to win? No? You couldn't possibly 'know' unless you have a crystal ball!

You say that but! The game was lost with that JD clearance kick in the last 5 minutes. You wouldn't be able to say without that monumental mess up, had Wales gone on to win that the best team lost surely? Sure there were chances and points not taken where there should have been - but even without those Wales were ahead with 5 minutes to go. That one kick did the damage. It lost them the game.

...
 
As a neutral England supporter, I can only say that Ireland got their butt kicked severely today. Whether they can recover in time after we stuff the Jocks is a different issue. Excellent game though. Enjoyed watching it. I would have given Stander the MoM but heh, it never goes to the losing side.

lol init!

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I don't get your point? Different game, different day, different vibe, different outcome - everything different. Was that Best non-try in the last 5 minutes? If it was then there is a similarity, but only that, a similarity.
 
If Henshaw entered that maul behind Rory Best Ireland would have gone on to win the game.
The timing of the disallowed try, and the change in the swing of the pendulum of momentum took the game away from Ireland.
What was Sexton doing in the bin for 10 minutes leaving his team rudderless.??
Better to have conceded the try.

Would of, could of, should of! Rugby is a game of fine margins , can't really dwell too much on that particular episode of the match , didn't affect the "overall" conclusion, 3 tries to nil proves that.
 
Well done Wales, I honestly didn't see that as the likely result before the game.
The biggest difference for me was George North. He was anonymous against Scotland, but turned up here and put in a massive amount of work defensively. Instead of his wing being a weak point for Ireland to target, it suddenly became a dead end. Fantastic to see him get his two tries too - showed great power for the first when I thought he was easily going to be stopped well before the line.
 
As a neutral England supporter, I can only say that Ireland got their butt kicked severely today. Whether they can recover in time after we stuff the Jocks is a different issue. Excellent game though. Enjoyed watching it. I would have given Stander the MoM but heh, it never goes to the losing side.
Proving an unpredictable Six Nations . Let us all get behind Vern's Boys as we dismantle the Auld Enemy's somewhat arrogant chariot !
 
Excellent match to watch as a neutral. Wales deserved the win, but the score line flattered them somewhat with the late charge-down try.

I was surprised about lots of things TBH ...

Wales raised their game. They are a different beast in Cardiff and barring Halfpenny and Biggar who were comparatively poor, I thought almost every player stepped-up.

Ireland's execution was poor - even aside from the disallowed try, their failure to turn time in Wales' 22 in to points really cost them. I counted at least 4 lineouts 5m that Wales either stole or spoilt which is way below expectation for this Ireland side.

Barnes had an excellent game IMO. Didn't get a lot wrong from what I saw.
 
Still fuming a bit but well good article in independent.ie.
May be good that we are going poorly. States while the hype about Schmidt being best coach in world etc - the stats and results show he's clearly far from that. Points to how he was outsmarted by Howley and Cotter.

Now again I don't think Schmidt is a bad coach but he has to make he calls.
Alpha mentioned guys like Best Kearney Ryan and SOB.
Last night Kearney did well in air but poor otherwise. Fact Bowe was on bench really summed up there'd be no sub there.
Ryan. Was actually very good last night. Henderson played his best game at lock beside him so while I agree Ryan needs to go it's more for who.
Sean O'Brien was a good player but since injuries he's not same guy. Has been poor and how he was left on last night shows Schmidts weaknesses slightly.
Best has been poor so Scannell and Tracy need to be played. They've proven they can.
Like last night Schmidt gassed lads by not using bench and it cost us at least 1 scrum.
 
I'm a lot gloomier now that the booze has worn off and it's the next morning... ***** me that was disappointing. I absolutely hate seeing us get caught out wide, we just make it look so easy for them. There is a massive question mark against our defense. Against quality opposition who like to run (ie most good teams) we are just leaking too many tries.

Wales 3
Scotland 3
Australia 3
NZ - 3, 4
Argentina - 4

Does anyone other tier 1 team (not counting Italy) give away as many tries as we do? It's painful to watch. I remember when we hammered Wales 26-3... That was in in 2014, and also the last time we've beaten them in a 6N. I mean it's one thing if you have a loose defense but make up for it with an incisive attack like many SR sides or Scotland, but our leaky defense coupled with our woeful attack is just awful, really. My grandfather is more creative in attack than Ireland. The funny thing is Ireland capable of playing a good attacking game, NZ and Italy being two (polar) examples. It's hard for me to say we're a top 4 side after looking at like this. Our game plan can be very effective when it works but it's so reliant on every player having a great game. Not saying we need to start winning games playing averagely, but we clearly lack a plan B and any off the cuff magic. Best, Toner, Ryan, RK and maybe even SOB need to be phased out.

Best offered nothing last night. He's never seemed like a great captain to me (despite being a lovely fella) and IMO his form this and last 6N have not been great, especially this year. It's a real pity Cronin wasn't there.
Toner... if he wasn't so feckin' lanky he probably wouldn't be on the team. He is pretty crap at rucking and doesn't offer much apart from being decent-ish in the line-out.
RK - Actually had an ok game. Majestic under the high ball as always. However Ireland are crying out for a FB that can inject some pace and counter-attacking flair. I'm not in favour of TOH, not yet anyways, he still has a lot to prove. Nor Payne - great player of course but he is 31 and we need to start looking to the future.
SOB - Just not what he used to be. He hasn't been the same after that WC injury. It's unfortunate, he's been class for Ireland but he looked outright dumb sometimes last night. Heard him shouting a lot but not much playing...
Heaslip - had a poor game but TBH I think he's pretty consistent overall and one bad game does not a player make. I wouldn't be calling for his head just yet.

I would be in favour of starting POM and even giving him the captaincy (though I'm not expecting Joe to make such a drastic change next week). I really hope we see more VdF when he returns from injury too. Ah I'm gonna stop the analysis now, it's just bumming me out! Looks like not much has changed... Ireland - good team capable of great performances, over-hyped ta fvck and consistently fail to deliver at big matches. Meh, if we still convincingly beat England next week I will be happy. It would likely mean finishing second, which I would take, in addition to denying them their slam and record. But whatever happens next week, much like Wales for this week, things are going to have to change regardless. Oh, and yet again, I was totally befuddled as to why a kicks at goal were refused. It was the exact same ****e against France. For me, it's a total NO BRAINER in a match like this. Especially in a match like this ffs. Closed roof at the Millenium Stadium, in a tense match against a team who have a notoriously strong defense. I hope we drop the jig-acting and start taking the points on offer. It's infuriating to see us go for the corner only for it to fail miserably.

PS does anyone know how I can watch the BBC via Irish internet? Lord save me if I have to endure more RTE punditry from those 4 clowns. They are dreadful. Would love to see some POC.
 
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Surely you mean you 'think' Ireland would have gone on to win? No? You couldn't possibly 'know' unless you have a crystal ball!

Haha yeah like how Davies kick wasn't the sole reasons Wales lost or North being called in touch the year before the sole reason you were denied a clear win... Gotta love the hypocrisy.
 
Proving an unpredictable Six Nations . Let us all get behind Vern's Boys as we dismantle the Auld Enemy's somewhat arrogant chariot !

There's only been one team saying that they're confident of a victory this week and it ain't the 'arrogant' chariot. That said you're looking good and deserve to be favourites ;)
 
Still fuming a bit but well good article in independent.ie.
May be good that we are going poorly. States while the hype about Schmidt being best coach in world etc - the stats and results show he's clearly far from that. Points to how he was outsmarted by Howley and Cotter.

Now again I don't think Schmidt is a bad coach but he has to make he calls.
Alpha mentioned guys like Best Kearney Ryan and SOB.
Last night Kearney did well in air but poor otherwise. Fact Bowe was on bench really summed up there'd be no sub there.
Ryan. Was actually very good last night. Henderson played his best game at lock beside him so while I agree Ryan needs to go it's more for who.
Sean O'Brien was a good player but since injuries he's not same guy. Has been poor and how he was left on last night shows Schmidts weaknesses slightly.
Best has been poor so Scannell and Tracy need to be played. They've proven they can.
Like last night Schmidt gassed lads by not using bench and it cost us at least 1 scrum.

Looking at the headlines of the indo and through this write up it looks nothing more than tabloid trash, what a surprise!

The two losses can't be blamed on Schmidt, we had rwo set pieces on Scotland's 5m line where three points would have won the game, poor execution at the line out and off the back of the scrum cost us, the exact same happened yesterday except it was at least 4 set pieces and a try was needed, missed line outs, Henshaw's error, Earls' overrunning a training ground move are not coaching errors. There's not much Schmidt can do when his players can't keep their discipline when in sight of the tryline when they're executing the playbook perfectly elsewhere, there's not much he can do about attack when the defence is leaking tries with the strongest defenders but my guess is that if you looked at possession and territory stats in both the Wales and Scotland games we came out best, he wasn't outsmarted by Howley or Cotter, their players just gave more on the day and won due to our players severe lack of composure.

Ireland don't have the players to go a year without a bad result unless everything is perfect, its far from it right now, we're blooding a new centre and while he's been our best player this 6 nations his 11 and 15 aren't pulling their weight because one can't tackle and the other has the positional sense of a donkey, this needs changing but the players who will come in aren't there yet, Sweetnam and Payne were injured while Byrne's defensive errors are worse than Zebo's. Picking SOB shows no weakness either, the guy had good games against France and Italy and will likely do so again next week, Schmidt needs to go back to tinkering with his sides week to week, now that he has the information that his ball carrying back row doesn't work against sides attacking the breakdown, he shouldn't pick it but one match didn't show this. Jordi Murphy and SOB will be interchangeable for this in the future, with Murphy's ability to hit attacking rucks being second to none in terms of Irish backrows.

These losses wouldn't have been prevented by any other coach in the world and criticism of Schmidt is, for the most part, from people who want us to play like NZ even though we can't, a coach can't coach individual errors out of players he can only replace them, is anyone going to criticise him for not dropping Henshaw, Earls, Stander, Heaslip and Best next week because their individual errors cost us two games? No, because they're the best we have for the most part but some should and likely will be phased out in the next 12 months, if there's no change then get the knives out but if we win next week we'll likely go the rest of the year unbeaten and get to third in the world because as we are only NZ can beat us in Dublin with England potentially, but unlikely imo, to be on the cusp.

Depth is being built and Zebo and Earls are likely on the verge of becoming squad players while Best, RK and Ryan are on their way out, two years out from an RWC we're in a better position than the side we lost to yesterday and will have more caps and experience, we have three 10's in the country capable of cutting defences wide open but don't have the back three to take adavantage, when Sweetnam, Byrne, ROL and Kelleher are mature enough these attacking problems will go away and we'll be able to compete to our best in consecutive international windows. Individual errors by players, with the exception of Stander and Henshaw, who won't be starters at the next World Cup aren't reasons to criticise Schmidt. The picking of SOB isn't even a reason because both games lost were completely winnable with him. Our players are overhyped, Schmidt is the real deal and will help his players catch up.
 
Very good post. You should see some of the drivel on boards.ie/rugby. People calling for Joe's head and all other sorts of nonsense. Though I would disagree slightly on SOB. I would be in favour of VdF making more regular appearances when available.

Out of curiosity why do you think Stander and Henshaw won't start at the next WC?

For the record, I think this match along with Argentina at the WC and France at 2016 6N have been our worst games in the Schmidt era (I'm not really going to include that first Oz match). Oh, actually Italy at the WC was atrocious as well despite us winning. Can you imagine if POM hadn't made that try saving tackle? Imagine if Italy had won and we went on to get thrashed by NZ? Would Schmidt even be here!?
 
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Haha yeah like how Davies kick wasn't the sole reasons Wales lost or North being called in touch the year before the sole reason you were denied a clear win... Gotta love the hypocrisy.

No hypocrisy at all. A match can clearly be lost (or won) in the last few minutes, but not so in the first few minutes or middle minutes because the wrongs can be righted, mistakes overcome. And I've never commented on the North being called in touch from last year, so it shouldn't be included in a response to my comments to be fair.
 
I'm a lot gloomier now that the booze has worn off and it's the next morning... ***** me that was disappointing. I absolutely hate seeing us get caught out wide, we just make it look so easy for them. There is a massive question mark against our defense. Against quality opposition who like to run (ie most good teams) we are just leaking too many tries.

Wales 3
Scotland 3
Australia 3
NZ - 3, 4
Argentina - 4

Does anyone other tier 1 team (not counting Italy) give away as many tries as we do? It's painful to watch. I remember when we hammered Wales 26-3... That was in in 2014, and also the last time we've beaten them in a 6N. I mean it's one thing if you have a loose defense but make up for it with an incisive attack like many SR sides or Scotland, but our leaky defense coupled with our woeful attack is just awful, really. My grandfather is more creative in attack than Ireland. The funny thing is Ireland capable of playing a good attacking game, NZ and Italy being two (polar) examples. It's hard for me to say we're a top 4 side after looking at like this. Our game plan can be very effective when it works but it's so reliant on every player having a great game. Not saying we need to start winning games playing averagely, but we clearly lack a plan B and any off the cuff magic. Best, Toner, Ryan, RK and maybe even SOB need to be phased out.

Best offered nothing last night. He's never seemed like a great captain to me (despite being a lovely fella) and IMO his form this and last 6N have not been great, especially this year. It's a real pity Cronin wasn't there.
Toner... if he wasn't so feckin' lanky he probably wouldn't be on the team. He is pretty crap at rucking and doesn't offer much apart from being decent-ish in the line-out.
RK - Actually had an ok game. Majestic under the high ball as always. However Ireland are crying out for a FB that can inject some pace and counter-attacking flair. I'm not in favour of TOH, not yet anyways, he still has a lot to prove. Nor Payne - great player of course but he is 31 and we need to start looking to the future.
SOB - Just not what he used to be. He hasn't been the same after that WC injury. It's unfortunate, he's been class for Ireland but he looked outright dumb sometimes last night. Heard him shouting a lot but not much playing...
Heaslip - had a poor game but TBH I think he's pretty consistent overall and one bad game does not a player make. I wouldn't be calling for his head just yet.

I would be in favour of starting POM and even giving him the captaincy (though I'm not expecting Joe to make such a drastic change next week). I really hope we see more VdF when he returns from injury too. Ah I'm gonna stop the analysis now, it's just bumming me out! Looks like not much has changed... Ireland - good team capable of great performances, over-hyped ta fvck and consistently fail to deliver at big matches. Meh, if we still convincingly beat England next week I will be happy. It would likely mean finishing second, which I would take, in addition to denying them their slam and record. But whatever happens next week, much like Wales for this week, things are going to have to change regardless. Oh, and yet again, I was totally befuddled as to why a kicks at goal were refused. It was the exact same ****e against France. For me, it's a total NO BRAINER in a match like this. Especially in a match like this ffs. Closed roof at the Millenium Stadium, in a tense match against a team who have a notoriously strong defense. I hope we drop the jig-acting and start taking the points on offer. It's infuriating to see us go for the corner only for it to fail miserably.

PS does anyone know how I can watch the BBC via Irish internet? Lord save me if I have to endure more RTE punditry from those 4 clowns. They are dreadful. Would love to see some POC.

Good post. Re BBC I currently live in Paris and use Nord VPN with a UK IP address so I get BBC instead of the bizarre French commentary. Because it wouldn't be the six nations without Butler rubbing me up the wrong way...Nord VPN isn't free if you want to choose the server but I think there are free ones.
 
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