[2016 Rugby Championship] Argentina v South Africa (27/08/2016)

[TRF_stormer2010]

We should start Jantjies but if he makes an early mistake pull him off as he is likely to be a liability for the rest of the game.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Think of it this way: If Steyn had/has to start, we will be assured of him fielding at least 4 out of 5 attempts at penalty goals within a 55m range. That's 12 points in the bag. If we had that kind of assurance last week we never would've been under pressure and in return to a certain extent have kept Argentina in the game. But we have to back Elton at pivot, because at the end of the day he passed the test and he is the best in the country at current.

In most of the close tests (such as last week), the halfbacks and more so the flyhalf can and should control the game (Naas) because at any given time during the match he can decide on his teams territory. Thank heavens for a player like Faf De Klerk who always takes the pressure off Jantjies, but this shouldn't be the case. I think Gavin Rich's latest article puts the nail on the head as he attributes Jantjies spell of mixed bags to his confidence. He falls off the wagon way too easy, whether it be a missed attempt at goal, missed tackle, or even a bad up-and-under hoist, he clearly succumbs to the pressure too easy.

I'm sure he felt a bit of the pendulum swinging his way when he heard Pollard being out for the whole year and furthermore when Pat didn't play much, so he knew he was a shoe in to wear the Bok 10 by just putting together a couple of consistent performances for the Lions which he did, but carrying that standard over to test level still prompts a question and you bet Morne Steyn is waiting to save the day with one of those long haulers.

It's one thing to say the game gets won up front, but if your flyhalf doesn't pitch then it won't work so much. This game is an even bigger test for Elton as his performance out of South Africa tends to drop and I really hope he can pull it together as we really have no other options at 10.

The bold part is what worries me. That was certainly the case during the Ireland series. But now AC has Goosen and Steyn to cover for Elton. And also, the squad that was originally announced, was just for the first 2 tests. For all we know, someone else could be called up next week. It seems like Elton cracks under pressure, and doesn't have the BMT we have seen from Pollard, Lambie and Morne Steyn.

If I was Argentina, and Australia and New Zealand for that matter, I'd target Elton, as the cracks are already showing.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Steyn and kriel on the bench have me hopeful that goosen and jantiles will be on a short leash.

It seems that the entire backline save Habana and Cumbrick are on their last legs with the coaching staff. The wings were better play makers than anyone else last week.

 

[Ludders93]

Salta = Altitude. Dry Pitch for running rugby. Yes a lot of the Bok players are used to 1200+ metres altitude, but the home team tend to benefit the most from extreme weather conditions and Argentina have played quite a few tests here. I remember in 2014 Argentina really should've beaten SA in Salta, and that SA side was probably better than this one.

Here's my tip. Bet on South Africa to be winning at half time, but Argentina to win at full time. The odds are really good, and I think it's quite likely. SA have a dominant scrum and pack now Ayerza's gone, and Goosen can kick penalties from 60 metres. But SA teams never travel well, and they'll tire in the second half, and Argentina's up-tempo running game can win them the game. SA did finish games well vs Ire + Arg, but that was at home. They tend to go backwards in 2nd halves away from home.

It's just a hunch I have, but the odds are so good on it at 10/1 that I feel to go for it.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I sincerely doubt altitude will benefit Argentina. We're talking 1000 mts asl give or take, and it's not as if our players are used to that. Lions' players (4/5?) should benefit more from altitude than any argentine player.

 

[Ludders93]

The Arg coach last week was complaining about a wet pitch not allowing Arg to play expansive rugby, so this week should suit them. I've heard Salta is like desert, different conditions to Highveld in SA, I'm no expert, but I fancy Argentina can run SA ragged over 80 minutes.

on another note, when does the Arg team get announced, it always seems to be 2 days after everyone else

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

the weather last week only helped the argies since south africa had a hard time catching the ball

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Dry, yes, absolutely. It's warm and dry but not that warm this time of the year. Actually, very warm during day, quite cold at night. We call it "high thermal amplitude" if you are interested in those things.
It's one of those places where you go out during the day on a shirt, sweatign your arse off, end up in a bar having beers and by the time you're done it's quite cold. It's quite common for people who visit to get a cold because of that.

Forecast for Sat is 16-26, cloudy. Pretty much perfect conditions.

And about the announcement, i agree, they consistently announce the teams +24hs later than anyone else.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I still have absolutely no idea of how this is going to go despite being broadly right with my guess last week (Boks by 7-10). This could be close or could be 14+ in either direction. I really see no indication of a game plan from the Boks, think their back line look a bit clueless (compared to their club form) and neither team seemed willing last week adjust and play to the conditions in the second half when the ball was like a bar of soap (although SA did at least break out a few up and unders). I don't know AC's pedigree but he is not filling me with confidence in his first few games.

Factor in that the Pumas showed only brief flashes of their club side frailty and they'll have had another week of Hourcade's direction and I think I'll put them as favourites by 4-7. Let's say 32-26.

 

[Ludders93]

The first 4 games of AC's reign the Springboks have been absolutely rubbish. Bar a couple of inspiring late surges the general quality of play has been abysmal. It's weird how you can select so many Lions players playing sparkling club rugby, add in the best of the other franchises like Etzebeth and De Jager, and come out with such an average team.

I think AC needs to make a decision on philosophy. Does he want to play up-tempo like the Lions, or a more forward orientated traditional bok game. He's stuck between two at the moment and the team looks confused

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Argentina XV
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pumas team to face <a href="https://twitter.com/Springboks">@Springboks</a> next saturday in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Salta?src=hash">#Salta</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PersonalRugbyChampionship?src=hash">#PersonalRugbyChampionship</a><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ARGvRSA?src=hash">#ARGvRSA</a> <a href="https://t.co/DyrvBgetFe">pic.twitter.com/DyrvBgetFe</a></p>&mdash; UnionArgentinaRugby (@unionargentina) <a href="https://twitter.com/unionargentina/status/768861000745574400">August 25, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

@TRF_heineken

1. Tetaz 2. Creecy 3. Herrera 4. Alemanno 5. Lavanini 6. Matera 7. Leguizamon 8. Isa 9. Landajo 10. Sanchez 11. Montero 12. Hernandez 13. Orlando 14. Cordero 15. Tuculet

Subs: Montoya, Arregui, Pieretto, Petti, Ortega, Cubelli, Gonzalez Iglesias, Gonzalez Amorosino

- - - Updated - - -

Pfff, mole beat me to it. Disregard.

 

[Superalexmarket]

We can show best stadiums that Father Martearena of Salta. Lacking enough of infrastructure in my opinion.

 

[Ludders93]

What's happened to Ayerza. I remember last year he single handedly destroyed SA at scrum time in Durban, now without him, SA are decimating the Argie scrum. He's the world's best scrummager imo, for years he's given Leicester utter dominance.

I really think Argentina can win this. South Africa have always been rubbish travellers. Their record in Australia and NZ is comical. Even in Europe, they lost in Cardiff to the welsh, always seem to lose in Dublin, the one ground they've done well in recently is Twickenham, but that's mostly about English incompetence rather than Bok brilliance. In the 2nd half of away games especially, they literally seem to go backwards. I remember last summer in Australia, and on countless occasions in NZ, them just capitulating in second halves. If argentina can play with tempo, they should run in some tries as the Saffers tire and win this fairly comfortably

 

[Superalexmarket]

Don't you know the UAR rule for the national team? Only players in Super Rugby teams can play for the Pumas. So we lose Ayerza, Imhoff, Lobbe, etc...

 

[CarferFragen]

What's happened to Ayerza. I remember last year he single handedly destroyed SA at scrum time in Durban, now without him, SA are decimating the Argie scrum. He's the world's best scrummager imo, for years he's given Leicester utter dominance.

I really think Argentina can win this. South Africa have always been rubbish travellers. Their record in Australia and NZ is comical. Even in Europe, they lost in Cardiff to the welsh, always seem to lose in Dublin, the one ground they've done well in recently is Twickenham, but that's mostly about English incompetence rather than Bok brilliance. In the 2nd half of away games especially, they literally seem to go backwards. I remember last summer in Australia, and on countless occasions in NZ, them just capitulating in second halves. If argentina can play with tempo, they should run in some tries as the Saffers tire and win this fairly comfortably

Ayerza plays in Europe, ergo, is no longer "eligible" for the Pumas (idem Figallo, Galarza, Fernandez Lobbe, Bosch and Imhoff)

 

[WaterboySA]

I really think Argentina can win this. South Africa have always been rubbish travellers.

Put your money where your mouth is...go big, 10K against the boks, they are rubbish travelers! LOL

 

[GoTheNaki]

Don't you know the UAR rule for the national team? Only players in Super Rugby teams can play for the Pumas. So we lose Ayerza, Imhoff, Lobbe, etc...

That's broken considering they only have ONE team in Super Rugby. I guess they're happy with losing?

 

[TRF_heineken]

The first 4 games of AC's reign the Springboks have been absolutely rubbish. Bar a couple of inspiring late surges the general quality of play has been abysmal. It's weird how you can select so many Lions players playing sparkling club rugby, add in the best of the other franchises like Etzebeth and De Jager, and come out with such an average team.

I think AC needs to make a decision on philosophy. Does he want to play up-tempo like the Lions, or a more forward orientated traditional bok game. He's stuck between two at the moment and the team looks confused

First of all, there is no way you can measure a national side against a Super Rugby team. The opposition is of higher quality at national level and coaches have very little time to prepare their teams for the upcoming matches as opposed to Super Rugby teams that start their preparation 3 months in advance.

If you took the time to read the news articles, you would see that the Springbok Coach and his players all say the exact same thing. They will not deviate from traditional Springbok Rugby playing style, only to enhance it. And I think we saw glimpses of that last week. Dominate up front and get the backs into space. Sure our handling and poor kicking got us more on the back foot. But when we did get good front foot ball, we got over the advantage line every time. If it wasn't for the Argentines negative play at the rucks, I'm sure there would have been a lot more tries.

Salta = Altitude. Dry Pitch for running rugby. Yes a lot of the Bok players are used to 1200+ metres altitude, but the home team tend to benefit the most from extreme weather conditions and Argentina have played quite a few tests here. I remember in 2014 Argentina really should've beaten SA in Salta, and that SA side was probably better than this one.

Here's my tip. Bet on South Africa to be winning at half time, but Argentina to win at full time. The odds are really good, and I think it's quite likely. SA have a dominant scrum and pack now Ayerza's gone, and Goosen can kick penalties from 60 metres. But SA teams never travel well, and they'll tire in the second half, and Argentina's up-tempo running game can win them the game. SA did finish games well vs Ire + Arg, but that was at home. They tend to go backwards in 2nd halves away from home.

It's just a hunch I have, but the odds are so good on it at 10/1 that I feel to go for it.

Altitude should favour all SA players apart from the Stormers and Sharks teams who are at the coast. But not only that, but while the Boks were training ahead of the first test, they trained at a facility at altitude so they are used to the thinner air.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but from the past 3 tests South Africa has played, they were the ones who were able to make the step up in the second half, especially during the last 15 minutes, which lead to them getting 2 come-from-behind wins...

 

[George Ford]

The first 4 games of AC's reign the Springboks have been absolutely rubbish. Bar a couple of inspiring late surges the general quality of play has been abysmal. It's weird how you can select so many Lions players playing sparkling club rugby, add in the best of the other franchises like Etzebeth and De Jager, and come out with such an average team.

I think AC needs to make a decision on philosophy. Does he want to play up-tempo like the Lions, or a more forward orientated traditional bok game. He's stuck between two at the moment and the team looks confused

AC made it very clear on a number of occasions that he will NOT replicate ANY franchise's style of play because test rugby is totally different and therefore the approach should be based rather on tactics to win the game and preparation and focus is essentially on how the players adapt to the conditions they're faced with and how well the players can play match situations.

I do agree with him in the sense that we shouldn't define or give away our predetermined template or style of play as previous teams in the past did. I remember Victor Matfield always saying at press conferences, when asked of approach - that "we won't be doing anything different.. stick to our strengths, put the opposition under pressure a bit" i.e. penal-trate. That kind of approach resulted in Heynecke Meyer only beating the All Blacks ONCE in the last 4 years because it happened exactly on the pitch as Victor would said and for Hansen & Co, being as intelligent as they are, found that blueprint easy to negate (prepare to match physicality and outrank fitness).

Now I do second the sentiment that based on the performance of the Boks last 4 games that it appears the team is lacking a bit of identity in the style that we play, because our combinations are not linking in key areas and at key times and it seems only when the players realise the embarrassment of a home defeat they tend to grow an extra arm and throw the kitchen sink, coupled with the injection of the bench players, to eventually scrape it at the end.

This seems to have been working for so far, but there is no guarantee of it always working. But what we can draw from those victories is the real quality of the individuals SA has to offer and, as AC has said, we need that kind of intensity for 80 minutes.

For most of the tests so far we have been our own enemy, but if we can eliminate the unforced errors, keep mistakes to the minimum and get our execution right then we can allow ourselves to show off the way we want to play whether it be a running game or a structured and focused approach depending on the opposition.

We have showed glimpses of it, but imagine we play like that for a full 80 minutes!

Oh and I think it's fair to say that this Bok team can't be compared in any way to the Bok teams of the past.