[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Italy vs. England (14/02/2016)

[stus768]

Watson was in the team under Lancaster and Hartley was frequently in Lancaster teams. Itoje, George and Clifford have all had barely any game time. Barritt has been replaced by Farrell, again a Lancaster choice. This IS the same team.

Same team with the same problems. Poor breakdown, poor kick chase (slightly improved) and lack of support.

 

[McTallshort]

Haskell and robshaw have to step aside now. Kvesic doesn't seem to be in the picture so a starting back row of itoje Clifford and Billy would be my choice of the players available.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Watson was in the team under Lancaster and Hartley was frequently in Lancaster teams. Itoje, George and Clifford have all had barely any game time. Barritt has been replaced by Farrell, again a Lancaster choice. This IS the same team.

Same 15, new bench.

Was there a single sub who didn't outperform the person he replaced? Obviously fresh legs against tired and Italian heads going down is a big part, but still a very strong showing from all bench players. Itoje was fantastic, Clifford as well. Both carried well, dominated contact, hit rucks hard, even went for turnovers. Those two were undeniably streets ahead of Haskell and Robshaw - basically they added dynamism. At least one has to start against Ireland.

IF, big if, that is a sign of the future makeup of the pack then the first game and a half of EJ's tenure could prove, in hindsight, to be part of the masterplan.

We'll see what the 23 is in two weeks...

 

[Grizwald]

Hi guys, just watched the match in Rome. As an Italian living in this country for a long time I have to tell you that I have had enough. I think italy needs a reality check, we need to pull out of the 6 nations asap. We are not good enough, not enough grass root rugby at home, not enough tradition or culture of the sport. Once again we got battered (9-40!!!) and it was actually quite painful to watch.

Despite the scoreline I think it flattered England and things look OK for the Italians longer term. Personally I think dropping out of the 6N will kill Italian rugby for a long time if not indefinitely. At the end of the day there are two domestic top tier teams which are struggling and it isn't a hugely popular sport with the tradition of the other countries competing in the 6N.

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Haskell and robshaw have to step aside now. Kvesic doesn't seem to be in the picture so a starting back row of itoje Clifford and Billy would be my choice of the players available.

At least one of them does IMO, just way too similar. We'll get punished in the lineout as neither are a reliable option. Although as others have stated it was against more tired legs, the back row replacements were far more dynamic than the ones they replaced.

I think the test side that comes out of the Australian tour will hopefully quite different to side that features in the 6N. There's a few place holders and the desire not to chop and change and put too many in experienced guys in to early. Even Hartley could just be short (6N) term, as captain. Although I don't see too many other sticking their hand up showing the character to be captain-Kruis looks to be getting their IMO.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

As others have said already Itoje, Clifford and Binny is surely the way to go, it's just a matter of when Jones unleashes these 3 as his starting back row. If not this 6Ns, then certainly by June v Australia.

 

[Peat]

Hi guys, just watched the match in Rome. As an Italian living in this country for a long time I have to tell you that I have had enough. I think italy needs a reality check, we need to pull out of the 6 nations asap. We are not good enough, not enough grass root rugby at home, not enough tradition or culture of the sport. Once again we got battered (9-40!!!) and it was actually quite painful to watch.

Welcome to the forum

I think Italy can make it as a rugby nation if they hang tough and get youth development up to scratch pronto - and I've heard some good things there in passing - and I hope they do.

 

[spartan32]

Everyone seems very excited about the new lads, and rightly so. They played very well, Georges offload to Faz was a great bit of skill and they all looked good, but let's not get over excited. They were brought in to face an Italian side who were already beaten and very tired. As impacts thy certainly did their job but from that one performance alone no one can determine what may happen if you were to start them.

Haskell had a good game I thought. Smashed everything that moved (even if they were in the air?!) and was solid. Robshaw too was all over the park and was right there for many of the kick chases. The problem is they are both too similar. I think mixing them in with Itoje and Clifford would be the way forward. One experienced guy who's solid, and one young lad who's dynamic. Let the young ones bed in and in time we could look to playing them all at once, but bearing in mind we would then need to start thinking about who benches in their place?

I think JJ has proved his point. Solid all day and scored three tries. I was even mildly more impressed with Faz, although he's still never a 12. As for Ford, I think maybe it's time to put a call into Cips. He deserves a decent shot and Ford can head back to bath and work on his game.

All in all I think there is a lot to be encouraged about, but still a way to go. Ireland will be the first real test and I'll be interested to see what the starting 15 will be.

Oh and Goode was ok I guess.

 

[giampy161170]

Welcome to the forum

I think Italy can make it as a rugby nation if they hang tough and get youth development up to scratch pronto - and I've heard some good things there in passing - and I hope they do.

Hi mate, maybe what you say is right, perhaps we should start somewhere else though. Getting hammered like that on a regular basis is not very motivating. I just think that competing with the Home Nations and France in the 6N is just a step too far. Cheers.

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Despite the scoreline I think it flattered England and things look OK for the Italians longer term. Personally I think dropping out of the 6N will kill Italian rugby for a long time if not indefinitely. At the end of the day there are two domestic top tier teams which are struggling and it isn't a hugely popular sport with the tradition of the other countries competing in the 6N.

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At least one of them does IMO, just way too similar. We'll get punished in the lineout as neither are a reliable option. Although as others have stated it was against more tired legs, the back row replacements were far more dynamic than the ones they replaced.

I think the test side that comes out of the Australian tour will hopefully quite different to side that features in the 6N. There's a few place holders and the desire not to chop and change and put too many in experienced guys in to early. Even Hartley could just be short (6N) term, as captain. Although I don't see too many other sticking their hand up showing the character to be captain-Kruis looks to be getting their IMO.

Hi mate, I'm not sure we are competing at the right level, watching the game today was like watching England vs San Marino in football..don't know if you get my drift:lol:

 

[ncurd]

Hi mate, maybe what you say is right, perhaps we should start somewhere else though. Getting hammered like that on a regular basis is not very motivating. I just think that competing with the Home Nations and France in the 6N is just a step too far. Cheers.

I wouldn't get too disheartened you pushed France to the limit last week and your starting to beat Scotland semi-regulary. We're a long way off from the 100 point thrashings of old.

So you lost to England you've never beaten England, you've beaten all the other 6 nations sides and apart from Wales in recent years too. Italy are going in the right direction but it will take more time you've only been in the 6 nations for 16 years.

Going back to beating everyone at the lower tier is not going to help you just like it doesn't help Romania.

 

[Saint4805]

Hi mate, maybe what you say is right, perhaps we should start somewhere else though. Getting hammered like that on a regular basis is not very motivating. I just think that competing with the Home Nations and France in the 6N is just a step too far.

Don't worry mate. We'll make you feel that you're not out of your depth in a couple of weeks.

 

[Wendigo7]

Hi mate, maybe what you say is right, perhaps we should start somewhere else though. Getting hammered like that on a regular basis is not very motivating. I just think that competing with the Home Nations and France in the 6N is just a step too far. Cheers.

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Hi mate, I'm not sure we are competing at the right level, watching the game today was like watching England vs San Marino in football..don't know if you get my drift:lol:

It's a money thing fella.

Like I've been saying for a while. Italy is short of a lot of money. ALOT of money. Club level, provincial level and national level. 1 national academy won't help that. They need a lot of help.

They've jumped to professional level without the funding or league to do so.

A lot of work needs to be done with them and hopefully over time, the level of talent in Italy will improve but sadly it's not for the foreseeable.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I wouldn't get too disheartened you pushed France to the limit last week and your starting to beat Scotland semi-regulary. We're a long way off from the 100 point thrashings of old.

So you lost to England you've never beaten England, you've beaten all the other 6 nations sides and apart from Wales in recent years too. Italy are going in the right direction but it will take more time you've only been in the 6 nations for 16 years.

Going back to beating everyone at the lower tier is not going to help you just like it doesn't help Romania.

Don't mean to put a downer on it as I really like Italy but their last 3 results against us have been 30+ losses. Once? That's unlucky but that's their last 3 games. Also their last 3 losses have been above the average for all their games against England (27.5). Infact this is their second worst scoring streak against England since the 2003 world cup squad and let's face it, they were thrashing everyone. That is not moving in the right direction.

 

[Peat]

Don't mean to put a downer on it as I really like Italy but their last 3 results against us have been 30+ losses. Once? That's unlucky but that's their last 3 games. Also their last 3 losses have been above the average for all their games against England (27.5). Infact this is their second worst scoring streak against England since the 2003 world cup squad and let's face it, they were thrashing everyone. That is not moving in the right direction.

They've got a mental block when it comes to us but have gone decent against others with some wins.

What happens on the pitch is almost secondary to the number of prospects produced for Italian rugby. They've not produced the number of players needed in the current generations to stick it to the world. How many wins they can squeeze out of them is important for money and maintaining interest, but their chances of going anywhere are nil until player production is upgraded.

 

[Bee]

I am not opposed to Italy and support Rugby wherever it will be played, but it is totally beyond me why Italy is being favoured so much. Six nations, World Cup, European Leagues. Italian teams get hammered everywhere. There are a lot of lower tier teams that should be given the chance to play in the big lights. Countries with good infrastructure and number of players, even bigger than Italy.
Just make a qualification for the six nations and give other small teams the chance to play there, too. It would be fine if there would be an "open" spot to qualify and maybe the tournament becomes a little bit more exciting by new looks every time.
Same with European cups. Just give more small clubs the chance to play there, too. How should they develop ?

 

[Imperious Red]

Quins represented well, especially in the second half

 

[MarkyH]

I think someone should start a 6N promotion/relegation thread... just so I can sit back and enjoy the fireworks

 

[dai_seven]

@marky

I presume you're thinking of 1 up, 1 down?
to
It's an idea to have relegation from the 6N but who would be the replacement team? The structure in Italy isn't great but is it any better elsewhere? Whoever replaces the bottom team would certainly be relegated the following year.

 

[Maverick1987]

@marky

I presume you're thinking of 1 up, 1 down?
to
It's an idea to have relegation from the 6N but who would be the replacement team? The structure in Italy isn't great but is it any better elsewhere? Whoever replaces the bottom team would certainly be relegated the following year.

It would drum up popularity in the country that was promoted though . I'm not completely against there being 2 4 team tiers . Then we can play home and away every year like in the rugby championship

 

[dai_seven]

If that was the case, the whole structure of European rugby would need to change. Each country has 5 6N games in 7 weeks (plus 3 or 4 Autumn internationals) sandwiched in between the European Cup windows. Your suggestion is to increase the International window for the replacement 6N to 8 games. My question would be how?

 

[MarkyH]

Maybe a playoff system, top team in the European Nations Cup Vs bottom of 6N but I'm sure Italy or Scotland would beat Georgia most times? So nothing would change really.

I'd like to see more B/Saxons teams playing against the likes of Georgia, Romania, Russia to be honest. That would help their development...