[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 1: Ireland vs. Wales (07/02/2016)

[munstermuffin]

Earls out for French game. Healy and Ross to return is what's being said

 

[Amiga500]

SOB and Kearney back too seemed to be doing the rounds yest. evening?

 

[Bee]

They don't bother about straight feeding to the scrum in the Six Nations either, do they ?

 

[Amiga500]

Bit of a low ****ty comment. Especially when it comes from a province who've got special dispensation and have never done anything in a meaningful European cup.

Yeah, your right. Bit low in the light of day - sorry.

Frustrating watching that and then seeing folks happy with it.

The Kiwis and Aussies would no doubt be looking on and thinking "neanderthal rugby"

- - - Updated - - -

They don't bother about straight feeding to the scrum in the Six Nations either, do they ?

Ha. Every 10 years or so, there is a big PR drive about re-emphasis on the scrum feed. Then 2 months later its forgot about.

 

[Slamdunk]

Guess you missed so as he made 2 try saving tackles and RTE full of praise of him saying he was 1 of our better defenders. And guess we will disagree on tip tackle views.

And didn't win as Wales were equally as good. I just commented on Irish side. We were poor up front at scrum and lineout shaky.

You seemed to rate all but one Irish player very highly then put this?

Personally i thought Ireland did very well but that Wales could and should have put the game to bed. Im not going to mention Biggar as he was injured so for my main point i will criticise Warburton. Rhys Priestland cannot drop goals yet we went for two because we did not have the guile to turn overwhelming possession and multi-stages into points. When he was the first choice, Priestland was known for being a poor dropper of goals so what could change in wet conditions under intense pressure? Bloody ridiculous. A very poor start by Wales again saw us play catch up, again. When we got into the pace we were excellent in many areas, poor in others, and i mean **** poor. I think Warburtons lack of fitness showed and he was not his dynamic best. Having Lydiate also not at 100% didnt help but then, Ireland had issues in theback row too injury wise so we cant moan. I think Warburton sometimes makes poor decisions under pressure and he cost us against Australia by not taking an easy three points and then having the patience and confidence to turn the game around.

Our forwards were on top overall, as predicted. Scrum went very well and as a result we enjoyed some long periods of possession.

Until Wales have Scott Williams in the centre with JD2 we are always going to struggle. Jamie Roberts is now easy to defend, the opposition use two players to bring him down and he rarely made more than a yard - far too easy for a spread defence to cope with what we bring. Roberts looks for contact, great 12's like Henson look for spaces. Roberts never looks to attack a shoulder or a space, his job is to tie them in by bashing forwards and it no longer works.

Wales need to be able to have confidence in the backs and finish off moves, we cant, we look like we run out of ideas. Possession is 9/10ths so at least if we have it in or on the Irish 22 we have a chance of a penalty - giving it to Priestland to drop is a waste of space. Biggar would have bagged the 9 points he missed but thats irrelevent, we should have adapted to the 10 we had, not the one we wanted.

Strange thing to say after coming away from Ireland with points but we either need a new coach or a slightly amended philosophy. I think yesterdays game was purpose built for a player like Matthew Morgan, super-pacy with the X Factor. James and North is just same old plus same old. Morgan at FB and Williams on the wing would probably have given us clean breaks and really got at the Irish in the channels but Gatland wont risk players under 50 stone unless he has too.

Great result for an understrength Ireland side that will give them confidence but Wales can go away scratching their heads wondering what the point of having backs is in International rugby the way we play it,

No nous, no verve, no cutting edge and no brains. That is Wales behind a very very good 8 that can hold its own against any team in the world.

 

[munstermuffin]

You seemed to rate all but one Irish player very highly then put this?

Personally i thought Ireland did very well but that Wales could and should have put the game to bed. Im not going to mention Biggar as he was injured so for my main point i will criticise Warburton. Rhys Priestland cannot drop goals yet we went for two because we did not have the guile to turn overwhelming possession and multi-stages into points. When he was the first choice, Priestland was known for being a poor dropper of goals so what could change in wet conditions under intense pressure? Bloody ridiculous. A very poor start by Wales again saw us play catch up, again. When we got into the pace we were excellent in many areas, poor in others, and i mean **** poor. I think Warburtons lack of fitness showed and he was not his dynamic best. Having Lydiate also not at 100% didnt help but then, Ireland had issues in theback row too injury wise so we cant moan. I think Warburton sometimes makes poor decisions under pressure and he cost us against Australia by not taking an easy three points and then having the patience and confidence to turn the game around.

Our forwards were on top overall, as predicted. Scrum went very well and as a result we enjoyed some long periods of possession.

Until Wales have Scott Williams in the centre with JD2 we are always going to struggle. Jamie Roberts is now easy to defend, the opposition use two players to bring him down and he rarely made more than a yard - far too easy for a spread defence to cope with what we bring. Roberts looks for contact, great 12's like Henson look for spaces. Roberts never looks to attack a shoulder or a space, his job is to tie them in by bashing forwards and it no longer works.

Wales need to be able to have confidence in the backs and finish off moves, we cant, we look like we run out of ideas. Possession is 9/10ths so at least if we have it in or on the Irish 22 we have a chance of a penalty - giving it to Priestland to drop is a waste of space. Biggar would have bagged the 9 points he missed but thats irrelevent, we should have adapted to the 10 we had, not the one we wanted.

Strange thing to say after coming away from Ireland with points but we either need a new coach or a slightly amended philosophy. I think yesterdays game was purpose built for a player like Matthew Morgan, super-pacy with the X Factor. James and North is just same old plus same old. Morgan at FB and Williams on the wing would probably have given us clean breaks and really got at the Irish in the channels but Gatland wont risk players under 50 stone unless he has too.

Great result for an understrength Ireland side that will give them confidence but Wales can go away scratching their heads wondering what the point of having backs is in International rugby the way we play it,

No nous, no verve, no cutting edge and no brains. That is Wales behind a very very good 8 that can hold its own against any team in the world.

Not every player. They all had some faults. Zebos positioning, Whites scrummaging and few others but the all tried hard. No player just pranced around looking for easy option. On either team. I haven't commented on Welsh but they've also been brilliant. I understand guys like Amiga wanted a higher ceiling but I think in the long term we will really benefit. Remember we still have POM and Henderson to return to that pack as well as short term guys. There's great hope and I've faith in Schmidt to deliver the expansive game.

 

[Slamdunk]

Not every player. They all had some faults. Zebos positioning, Whites scrummaging and few others but the all tried hard. No player just pranced around looking for easy option. On either team. I haven't commented on Welsh but they've also been brilliant. I understand guys like Amiga wanted a higher ceiling but I think in the long term we will really benefit. Remember we still have POM and Henderson to return to that pack as well as short term guys. There's great hope and I've faith in Schmidt to deliver the expansive game.

Youve more faith in your coach than i do in ours. Im not being ungrateful as Gatland has made us the most successful 6N side during his tenure but the game evolves, ever was it thus. Gatlands game plan has not evolved in a decade and i seriously doubt he can do it. Wales won the GS with Howley as coach and my understanding is that Gatland had very little input other than advising Howley when requested. I think Howley could bring something different, but tempered with what he has learned from Gatland - or even Edwards as coach.

Yes Howley is the backs coach and it is there that we struggle to create but he has to coach the backs to fit in with Gatlands game-plan. the best 12 Wales have had in the last 20 years is the controversial Gavin Henson and he is actually playing brilliant rugby for his club and rolling back the years.

At his best, he brought others into play, his hand speed saw the ball moved just as he took big hits (he took them for the team but unlike Roberts the ball was gone- a Henson trademark). Roberts loathes Henson, so both of them in the camp will never happen - it was Gatlands dream to play Henson 12 and Roberts 13.
Roberts is just too easy to combat. Id prefer to see Henson brought back into camp - i know its a never never but the lad is a fabulous player and would help Wales to adapt the backline's approach.

Sadly, Gatland cannot see further than Roberts. Scott Williams at 13 and JD2 at 12 would also work very well. Im frustrated because we are a fraction away from being a fantastic side but that fraction seems to be the non-negotiable one.

 

[munstermuffin]

Youve more faith in your coach than i do in ours. Im not being ungrateful as Gatland has made us the most successful 6N side during his tenure but the game evolves, ever was it thus. Gatlands game plan has not evolved in a decade and i seriously doubt he can do it. Wales won the GS with Howley as coach and my understanding is that Gatland had very little input other than advising Howley when requested. I think Howley could bring something different, but tempered with what he has learned from Gatland - or even Edwards as coach.

Yes Howley is the backs coach and it is there that we struggle to create but he has to coach the backs to fit in with Gatlands game-plan. the best 12 Wales have had in the last 20 years is the controversial Gavin Henson and he is actually playing brilliant rugby for his club and rolling back the years.

At his best, he brought others into play, his hand speed saw the ball moved just as he took big hits (he took them for the team but unlike Roberts the ball was gone- a Henson trademark). Roberts loathes Henson, so both of them in the camp will never happen - it was Gatlands dream to play Henson 12 and Roberts 13.
Roberts is just too easy to combat. Id prefer to see Henson brought back into camp - i know its a never never but the lad is a fabulous player and would help Wales to adapt the backline's approach.

Sadly, Gatland cannot see further than Roberts. Scott Williams at 13 and JD2 at 12 would also work very well. Im frustrated because we are a fraction away from being a fantastic side but that fraction seems to be the non-negotiable one.

But Gatland has always set his stall out and he gets his results but for me Schmidt knows he has the group. It's more I think transferring his methods from when he was with Leinster having the players week in week out to now trying to fit it in to camps where he mightn't see lads for weeks in between.

Gatlands philosophy is to win in a certain style which to be fair he's had success with.

 

[profitius]

Well I finally got around to watching the rest of the match. Throwing away 13 points lead is disappointing especially considering the manner of it.


The Irish tight 5 were worse than I thought they would be. White, McCarthy and Toner are very limited and won't be around in 2 years time or even next season. Zebo blew hot and very cold too.

Overall a point lost.


I also thought it was a poor quality match. Positives from an Irish point of view was the defence. Wales are very predictable though.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Thought Ireland played pretty decently. We dominated Wales in the first 30 but Earls' tip tackle combined with J Davies' great grubber kick (with Zebo completely out of position) was a big turning point in the match which gave Wales a way back. In the second half, we played fairly well for the first 25 mins where we had 2-3 really good chances deep in their 22m but knocked it on. If we got a try then, the game could have been over. A draw is fair enough, thought Ireland (being in no way whatsoever bias........) probably deserved a marginal win but considering the injuries and disruptions to the team, I'd take a draw any day.
Stander was class. Made the most carries of any player in the 6N this weekend. TOD played very well considering he is only just back from injury.
Heaslip and McGrath were both immense.
Zebo was iffy - made some great carries and put in one really good grubber but was poor in his defensive positional play, got too flat in attack a few times, kicked out on the full and made one or 2 knock ons. Then again, he hasn't much senior level experience at FB and played much better than I expected.
White made a few decent carries and locked out the scrum for most of the game, but got badly shown up in the scrum on a few occasions. Furlong is a better scrummager and offers more in the loose.
McCarthy made some great tackles, was great in the rucks and carried effectively.
Provided Kearney and SOB are back for Saturday, I'd go with:
McGrath
Best
Furlong
McCarthy
Toner
Stander
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Zebo/Kearney
Henshaw
Payne
Trimble
Kearney

 

[Mumbles119]

At his best, he brought others into play, his hand speed saw the ball moved just as he took big hits (he took them for the team but unlike Roberts the ball was gone- a Henson trademark).

I used to love seeing that from Henson!

Henson getting tackled and just leaving the ball hanging in the air, defying gravity, for a speeding runner to cut a line in and scoop the ball out of air.

I probably should try to watch more Championship rugby if he showing this form again.

 

[Ospreylian]

Had a night to mull it over and here's my thoughts on the game:

The score reflects how equal the sides were throughout the game. Both teams based their games around solid defences and tried to attack when the mismatches came around but both defences were too good at closing the gaps down, and neither team had the attacking edge to finish moves off. Wales dominated the scrum for most of the game, which was pleasing to see as one of the main concerns has been whether or not we had the quality props to replace the likes of Jenkins and Jones. Rob Evans can consider himself an underrated performer yesterday.

Ireland brought a lot more to the game than many people expected them to with their injury list, so fair play to them. CJ Stander was impressive, Henshaw was fantastic in defence and Zebo just needs a bit of a calmer composure about him and he'll turn those breaks into finished moves. So there's a lot of positives to work on.

Faletau was superb, and possibly would have been my man of the match (though many people thought that should have gone to Roberts for his defensive efforts). The guy just pops up all over the place and his work rate is incredible. I think he may even be the best player in that squad right now. Tipuric also was all over the park, but didn't get much of a sniff at the breakdown, but that's the kind of game it was with both teams clearing rucks out efficiently. Tom James should keep his place; he made a few solid runs but I feel he'll get more of a chance to show what he can do against Scotland (please no Cuthbert back in the team). Priestland began the long process of proving his critics wrong (myself having been one of them over the last couple of years) and put in a well-rounded performance. He looked like he'd finally lifted some of that pressure off his shoulders and was willing to try more in attack. Th drop goal was silly, but that was a team mistake as there were plenty of opportunities to take it from a better distance and angle before they eventually decided to.

In the first half I thought Wales tried a few things in attack that we hadn't seen much of in recent times (like Priestland's chip over the top, for example) but all of that went out of the window in the second half and old ways resumed. It was so frustrating to see forwards doing hard work, the ball being recycled at snail pace and the backs working the ball blindly from touchline to touchline without bothering to look where the overlaps were. I don't believe for one second that back line are incapable of producing some more exiting attacking play, I just think it's been coached out of them. I've said it before, but Howley's role in that coaching team does really need to start being brought into question. What does he actually bring to Wales' attack?

 

[sublimaze1]

Good Morning.

First post - new to this forum.

Just finished watching the second half this morning before work. I don't think I have been any more disappointed about a draw. Perhaps the most disconcerting to me was the exhaustion at the end - not just Wales, but both teams.

Would have preferred a win, but I guess the draw is better than starting 0-1 in the hole.

I won't comment on the officiating or the errors ... too new to this forum.

Have a great day.

WJ

 

[Amiga500]

I won't comment on the officiating or the errors ... too new to this forum.

Get stuck in!

No place for politeness and decorum here!!! :lol:

 

[valley commando]

Youve more faith in your coach than i do in ours. Im not being ungrateful as Gatland has made us the most successful 6N side during his tenure but the game evolves, ever was it thus. Gatlands game plan has not evolved in a decade and i seriously doubt he can do it. Wales won the GS with Howley as coach and my understanding is that Gatland had very little input other than advising Howley when requested. I think Howley could bring something different, but tempered with what he has learned from Gatland - or even Edwards as coach.

Yes Howley is the backs coach and it is there that we struggle to create but he has to coach the backs to fit in with Gatlands game-plan. the best 12 Wales have had in the last 20 years is the controversial Gavin Henson and he is actually playing brilliant rugby for his club and rolling back the years.

At his best, he brought others into play, his hand speed saw the ball moved just as he took big hits (he took them for the team but unlike Roberts the ball was gone- a Henson trademark). Roberts loathes Henson, so both of them in the camp will never happen - it was Gatlands dream to play Henson 12 and Roberts 13.
Roberts is just too easy to combat. Id prefer to see Henson brought back into camp - i know its a never never but the lad is a fabulous player and would help Wales to adapt the backline's approach.

Sadly, Gatland cannot see further than Roberts. Scott Williams at 13 and JD2 at 12 would also work very well. Im frustrated because we are a fraction away from being a fantastic side but that fraction seems to be the non-negotiable one.

Howley is the problem not the answer, he was overrated as a player, Paul John was a superior scrum half but Howley played for Cardiff so got most of the caps, Paul John would be a better attack coach as well, he did wonders with the Wales 7's orchestrating a 7's World Cup Win and has the vision Howley lacks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wonder where Paul John played his rugby?

 

[valley commando]

I wonder where Paul John played his rugby?

I'm aware you think I am biased but did you ever see him play ? He was always very visionary and was a player whose vision was possibly his greatest asset something I believe that would give the Welsh backs that extra dimension needed to make them World Beaters.
I can't blame Gats for anything other than retaining Howley, Edwards does his job perfectly and McBride has got the tight 5 performing again, the missing piece is to get the backs creating opportunities and the solution is to get rid of Howley and install somebody who has vision if not John then another visionary.
As far as yesterday's result, a draw was all we deserved after gifting the last penalty to Ireland, mistakes like that at this level and with just a few minutes left are unforgivable, at least Webb is back next weekend.
Some good comments on here about the lack of offloads by us and the pro comments about Henson, much as Jamie Roberts has excelled I feel with Scott W in harness with the Fox we would create more, I wouldn't be averse to Henson on the bench covering 12, 13, 10 and 15.

 

[Thingimubob]

Howley is the problem not the answer, he was overrated as a player, Paul John was a superior scrum half but Howley played for Cardiff so got most of the caps, Paul John would be a better attack coach as well, he did wonders with the Wales 7's orchestrating a 7's World Cup Win and has the vision Howley lacks.

:lol:

I have plenty of misgivings about Howley as our attack coach, but you're having a laugh if you think he was overrated as a player! At his peak, he was the best scrum half in Britain and Ireland - hence why he was starting Lions scrum half in 2001 (most likely would have been in '97 had he not gotten injured). I mean I'm one to talk when it comes to being biased (especially if I've had a few pints during a Wales game...) but you just take that Ponty chip on your shoulder and run off into the sunset with it :lol:

Hat's off to you I guess!

Anyway, I actually agree that a change in attack coach is something that'd help Wales change their game. I remember a quote from a George North interview after we'd just beaten Ireland in 2012 - he said something about as soon as his back door offload for Jon Davies 2nd try left his hand, he thought "ah Howley's gonna kill me". Apparently they'd been instructed to keep offloads to a minimum and to focus on battering through the defense with their physicality.

Obviously was glossed over as we'd won (and went on to win the Grandslam), but I remember thinking "jesus, that's not exactly a positive mentality to coach into the squad."

Myself, not convinced that John would be the answer - sure he did good things with the 7's, especially in the World Cup, but we weren't exactly anywhere near being one of the major teams on the 7s circuit at the time?

The Blues' backs aren't completely useless under him at the moment, but I'm not convinced he'd be able to make an instant difference at the top level.

All a bit academic anyway, never going to see Howley dropped for him! Gatland and the WRU see him as the heir apparent, so won't sacrifice him anytime soon.

 

[dullonien]

I think Howley will make a good head coach, but I'm also not at all convinced by him as an attack coach. The problem is, how do we retain him as a coach, so that he can be groomed as a future Welsh head coach, but drop him as attack coach of Wales? Ideally he could have been installed as Cardiff Blues head coach with Wilson instead replacing McBryde as Wales' forwards coach (I rate Wilson massively as a forwards coach), but that ship has sailed.

Maybe the WRU/Gats should bring in an extra coach, a skills coach or the like, and both he and Howley could work with the backs (and forwards) with purely attack in mind. I do think something needs to change there, I wouldn't be against Nigel Davies coming in. Not a great head coach, but always gets his team playing some good stuff in attack, even during the reign of Gareth Jenkins as head coach of Wales.

Re Henson. I often think about how much we miss a player like him. On paper, he's close to a perfect 12, a potent mix of size, vision, skill, defence and huge boot. Scott Williams has some of those characteristics, but not all (adds pace to the mix though). But surely the Henson ship has well and truly sailed now? He's 32/33, and I have a feeling there's some dislike of him from other players in the camp, although i'm sure they're big enough to let that go, especially as Henson has matured.

He'd certainly still add something, and potentially push standards in attack. It's not out of the realms of possibility that he could make the next WC either. He's had long periods away from the rigours of rugby, and he keeps himself in top notch condition, but you don't see many 36/37 y/o backs playing international rugby.

 

[valley commando]

I think Howley will make a good head coach, but I'm also not at all convinced by him as an attack coach. The problem is, how do we retain him as a coach, so that he can be groomed as a future Welsh head coach, but drop him as attack coach of Wales? Ideally he could have been installed as Cardiff Blues head coach with Wilson instead replacing McBryde as Wales' forwards coach (I rate Wilson massively as a forwards coach), but that ship has sailed.

Maybe the WRU/Gats should bring in an extra coach, a skills coach or the like, and both he and Howley could work with the backs (and forwards) with purely attack in mind. I do think something needs to change there, I wouldn't be against Nigel Davies coming in. Not a great head coach, but always gets his team playing some good stuff in attack, even during the reign of Gareth Jenkins as head coach of Wales.

Re Henson. I often think about how much we miss a player like him. On paper, he's close to a perfect 12, a potent mix of size, vision, skill, defence and huge boot. Scott Williams has some of those characteristics, but not all (adds pace to the mix though). But surely the Henson ship has well and truly sailed now? He's 32/33, and I have a feeling there's some dislike of him from other players in the camp, although i'm sure they're big enough to let that go, especially as Henson has matured.

He'd certainly still add something, and potentially push standards in attack. It's not out of the realms of possibility that he could make the next WC either. He's had long periods away from the rigours of rugby, and he keeps himself in top notch condition, but you don't see many 36/37 y/o backs playing international rugby.

Where does all this Howley bull **** come from, what has he done ? Nothing by way of creativity, all he has done is coached the flare out of several players, if Paul John isn't going to get the gig then perhaps Mark Jones, his influence has had a bearing on 3 of the most gifted backs we have in Liam W, Scott W and Johny Fox.
You say Howley would make a good head coach, he'd struggle to make a good cup of tea, it is him that is holding Wales back as I said earlier we have the best head coach, the best defence coach and the best kicking coach, we have a scrum coach who is improving the front 5 and seems to be improving as a coach all we need to get to that next level is an attack coach who knows how best to attack.
As for Howley being the next Head coach, please God no, Dai Young maybe but not Howley that would be as ****e a decision as was the appointment of Gareth Perfect Hair Davies to the WRU, still if you played for Cardiff you get a leg up I guess. Before anybody comes back saying Dai Young played for Cardiff, he was born in Aberdare (Not a soft city boy)