[2015 Six Nations] Wales vs England (Round 1)

[bw245]

Gutted for Wales. Handed it to England in the second half. England were the better team, but nothing spectacular from them either. Going to be an interesting championship.

 

[j'nuh]

Just seen that Robshaw made 26 tackles and 0 missed. Nearly 1/5 of England's total (18%). You could add together the two next highest of England's tacklers (Vunipola, 14 and Kruis/Attwood, 10) and Robshaw would still have more tackles. Insanity.

I think as well this is yet another nail in the coffin of the claim that the Bath backs can't defend. None of Ford, Joseph or Watson struggled with gainline defending and infact our biggest defensive messup was Haskell and May (missing the tackle and then not trusting the inside defender, funnily enough Ford). Hopefully we can put this to bed once and for all, the Bath backs are not liabilities in defense. Now perhaps we can stick with choosing them for what they can offer in attack?

I don't think many people say that the Bath players can't defend, just that they don't have the power to be as aggressive in defence as guys like Farrell/Barritt. Also, the Welsh attack never really got going, so I'm not sure that this was the test that proved anything. Still, very happy with Ford/Joseph/Watson's contributions, all had great games. That said, the defensive weak link against Wales is Burrell for me, and I didn't think he did a right lot otherwise.

 

[Peat]

Better thoughts on this later but right now - there's a lot of heavily criticised guys who played their part in turning a odds-on loss into victory; well done all of them, starting from Lancaster and down to our 5 minute wonder sub. Plenty of room to improve, sure, but this is the platform from which to do so.

Commiserations to the Welsh.

 

[Bigbee]

Ahh I love the way the welsh abuse an individual who speaks out against them personally, yet fails to respond on the content of the text .....how wales are so desperate for a win they play childish games at the start of a game to get an edge over the opposition, how they will risk the personal health of individuals on a field to gain an edge. How will you feel in the cold light of morning for supporting such despicable behaviour if he collapses. What a shame on rugby and your country that would be. Poor north for choosing a country that values him so little. That risks his future health for the hope of a few points on a score board.
Go research Shontaye Harpe and what he wrote on how his country kept him playing when they knew he was concussed and how it has effected the rest of his life. Shame on you Wales and your spineless management. Shame.

 

[dasNdanger]

Overall a decent game. Suspense to the end. I really thought Wales was going to take this one, but they just couldn't follow through with their first half success. I think the highlight of the match for me was England's first try...I always like it when grubber ends in a score.



das

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Ben Youngs, Burrell, Kruis, Mako Vunnipola,

One of Croft or Easter needs to go for a second row.

But at the end of the day the guys who played today did a pretty damn good job so...

Ben Youngs? He was one of the men of the match!

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I have posted my review here if any are interested, what a start!


http://fourballsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/wales-vs-england-review.html

 

[goodNumber10]

I think as well this is yet another nail in the coffin of the claim that the Bath backs can't defend. None of Ford, Joseph or Watson struggled with gainline defending and infact our biggest defensive messup was Haskell and May (missing the tackle and then not trusting the inside defender, funnily enough Ford). Hopefully we can put this to bed once and for all, the Bath backs are not liabilities in defense. Now perhaps we can stick with choosing them for what they can offer in attack?

Did you miss Ford repeatedly going high and getting walked over the gain line then, or are you just choosing to ignore it?

 

[Irishkid]

Did you miss Ford repeatedly going high and getting walked over the gain line then, or are you just choosing to ignore it?

But he did stop the them also I think if Eastmonds fit you play him next week that will also help ford confidence in defence just give him time.

Also remember you could argue that is an England second team in the pack and we still murdered the pack. Also Davies is move to Clermont has been a shocker for him he is a shadow. It is so easy for any team to defend against when the Welsh play Warren ball. We need you to improve Wales so you can beat Fiji and the Aussies.

 

[Rugga-lad]

Good game to watch. How about the pre-match "festivities" ? That was pretty impressive.

 

[goodNumber10]

But he did stop the them also I think if Eastmonds fit you play him next week that will also help ford confidence in defence just give him time.

He did stop them, 2/3 metres past the gain line and that is important as it stops your defensive line getting off the next phase quickly. You do need a midfield defence that can stop opposition behind the gain line - a lot of that is actually to do with good line speed and not big tacklers.

The Welsh clearly targeted Fords channel yesterday as a means to get front foot ball pretending that they didn't or that it didn't have an effect is silly.

Regardless the point i'm making isn't that Ford doesn't tackle, or even that he didn't tackle (he was 7/1) it's the effectiveness of those tackles - he is not a big gain line defender and that's ok not everyone can be but don't pretend like he was smashing people back on the tackle line because he wasn't.

Also remember you could argue that is an England second team in the pack and we still murdered the pack. Also Davies is move to Clermont has been a shocker for him he is a shadow. It is so easy for any team to defend against when the Welsh play Warren ball. We need you to improve Wales so you can beat Fiji and the Aussies.

you've lost me.

 

[Peat]

The argument over Ford and Eastmond's defence has never been about whether they'd stop them - they solved that one early - but more where and how they'd stop them. I'd want to see the highlights again before commenting on them but I strongly doubt the argument has been settled here.

Ok, having taken a moment to read and think...

I think we got a little lucky. Wales had us on the rocks and spurned a few opportunities in the first half. I half-wonder whether they haven't been concentrating on fitness over training again, as their game intelligence looked a little rocky. First half, we just made too many rookie mistakes and misunderstandings and allowed them to put us under a lot of pressure. Second half, we really stepped it up and got the territory we needed to allow us to play. That was the big thing for me. I don't know who we've got back for Italy but there's some interesting decisions to be made.

My ratings...

Marler - 7 - Nothing outstanding, just solid in everything
Hartley - 5.5 - A little harsh maybe, but two lost throws is not a good look; even worse was his decision making on the two time hes got turned over, and two penalties conceded isn't great either.
Cole - 6.5 - Nice turnover, not so nice try at another to get pinged. Scrummaged well. Could maybe increase work rate?
Kruis - 6.5 - Solid in everything but turning the ball over in his own bloody 22
Attwood - 7 - Think he's the heart of England's set-piece effort at the moment and adds some physicality going forwards too.
Haskell - 7 - His biggest two moments he got wrong but everything else he got really right. Thought his carrying was absolutely key - that's the physical blindside performance so many of us have been crying out for.
Robshaw - 8 - 26 tackles made, none missed, 2 turnovers; he basically did more for our defence than any other 2 players combined. Carried well. Obviously captained well.
Vunipola - 7 - Big workload. I wish he turned up more wider out to carry, but that's not the plan and he did his job of sucking defenders in well. 14 tackles and 80 minutes is a coming-of-age performance for him at this level.

Youngs - 7.5 - Agree with everyone who said his sniping was pivotal. Looked like a man playing his natural game. It's been a long time since we've seen a scrum-half snipe that much for England, think he'd have done more damage if others had been more on his wave length.
Ford - 6.5 - A fly-half with that kicking percentage and two charge-downs does not deserve all the unalloyed praise he's been getting. A youngster does, and he did a lot of things very brightly, but I'm judging him as a fly-half.
May - 6.5 - Solid at most of what he did with little chance to shine but he either smashes Faletau and never lets him offload or he leaves Ford to it.
Burrell - 6.5 - Real mixed bag. Superb hands for Watson's try, great vision for his break... his decision to dance into three Welsh players with the ball above his head was hilari-bad... I think he deserves another game.
Joseph - 8 - Did pretty much everything possible with his chances and was solid in defence. Keep this up and I stop laughing at people who suggest Tuilagi isn't a shoo-in.
Watson - 7.5 - Great finish, solid at the basics
Brown - 7 - Running a little subdued compared to last year but solid and lovely bit of invention

Youngs - 6.5 - Did his job
Vunipola - 6 - Given the quality of Wales' front row replacements, don't think we got what we might have hoped for in the scrum, and don't think he did enough in the loose either. Might be being harsh there.
Brookes - 6.5 - Busier in the loose than Mako, so gets a half-mark more
Easter - 6 - Don't get caught blocking. Or overrun. Whichever.
Wigglesworth - 6 - Not as good as Youngs, but competent
Twelvetrees - 7 - Probably the most effective five minutes of his entire test career and that's not an insult.


Overall I'd like to see us work harder on bringing runners onto the ball at pace from depth. There was still a lot of ball to stationary forwards, still a lot of shuffling it between the backs and as I said, I don't think people worked as well off Youngs as they could. We had a lot of ball but our gas men never really got invited to use it against an open defence. Our rucking needs to be quicker too, too often my heart was in my mouth wondering if we were going to get pinged. Defensively, I think the penalty count was slightly a function of Garces being very harsh on players not rolling away. I want to rewatch and see where Youngs was standing, see whether he was actually sweeping, as Wales didn't go for the chip that has been effective for other teams against us.

 

[TommiG88]

The argument over Ford and Eastmond's defence has never been about whether they'd stop them - they solved that one early - but more where and how they'd stop them. I'd want to see the highlights again before commenting on them but I strongly doubt the argument has been settled here.

Ok, having taken a moment to read and think...

I think we got a little lucky. Wales had us on the rocks and spurned a few opportunities in the first half. I half-wonder whether they haven't been concentrating on fitness over training again, as their game intelligence looked a little rocky. First half, we just made too many rookie mistakes and misunderstandings and allowed them to put us under a lot of pressure. Second half, we really stepped it up and got the territory we needed to allow us to play. That was the big thing for me. I don't know who we've got back for Italy but there's some interesting decisions to be made.

My ratings...

Marler - 7 - Nothing outstanding, just solid in everything
Hartley - 5.5 - A little harsh maybe, but two lost throws is not a good look; even worse was his decision making on the two time hes got turned over, and two penalties conceded isn't great either.
Cole - 6.5 - Nice turnover, not so nice try at another to get pinged. Scrummaged well. Could maybe increase work rate?
Kruis - 6.5 - Solid in everything but turning the ball over in his own bloody 22
Attwood - 7 - Think he's the heart of England's set-piece effort at the moment and adds some physicality going forwards too.
Haskell - 7 - His biggest two moments he got wrong but everything else he got really right. Thought his carrying was absolutely key - that's the physical blindside performance so many of us have been crying out for.
Robshaw - 8 - 26 tackles made, none missed, 2 turnovers; he basically did more for our defence than any other 2 players combined. Carried well. Obviously captained well.
Vunipola - 7 - Big workload. I wish he turned up more wider out to carry, but that's not the plan and he did his job of sucking defenders in well. 14 tackles and 80 minutes is a coming-of-age performance for him at this level.

Youngs - 7.5 - Agree with everyone who said his sniping was pivotal. Looked like a man playing his natural game. It's been a long time since we've seen a scrum-half snipe that much for England, think he'd have done more damage if others had been more on his wave length.
Ford - 6.5 - A fly-half with that kicking percentage and two charge-downs does not deserve all the unalloyed praise he's been getting. A youngster does, and he did a lot of things very brightly, but I'm judging him as a fly-half.
May - 6.5 - Solid at most of what he did with little chance to shine but he either smashes Faletau and never lets him offload or he leaves Ford to it.
Burrell - 6.5 - Real mixed bag. Superb hands for Watson's try, great vision for his break... his decision to dance into three Welsh players with the ball above his head was hilari-bad... I think he deserves another game.
Joseph - 8 - Did pretty much everything possible with his chances and was solid in defence. Keep this up and I stop laughing at people who suggest Tuilagi isn't a shoo-in.
Watson - 7.5 - Great finish, solid at the basics
Brown - 7 - Running a little subdued compared to last year but solid and lovely bit of invention

Youngs - 6.5 - Did his job
Vunipola - 6 - Given the quality of Wales' front row replacements, don't think we got what we might have hoped for in the scrum, and don't think he did enough in the loose either. Might be being harsh there.
Brookes - 6.5 - Busier in the loose than Mako, so gets a half-mark more
Easter - 6 - Don't get caught blocking. Or overrun. Whichever.
Wigglesworth - 6 - Not as good as Youngs, but competent
Twelvetrees - 7 - Probably the most effective five minutes of his entire test career and that's not an insult.


Overall I'd like to see us work harder on bringing runners onto the ball at pace from depth. There was still a lot of ball to stationary forwards, still a lot of shuffling it between the backs and as I said, I don't think people worked as well off Youngs as they could. We had a lot of ball but our gas men never really got invited to use it against an open defence. Our rucking needs to be quicker too, too often my heart was in my mouth wondering if we were going to get pinged. Defensively, I think the penalty count was slightly a function of Garces being very harsh on players not rolling away. I want to rewatch and see where Youngs was standing, see whether he was actually sweeping, as Wales didn't go for the chip that has been effective for other teams against us.

I think I agree with everything you said there.

I would like to see a few changes on the bench next week with corbs coming back over mako, along with a second rower.

 

[dullonien]

Reflecting on this today, I think Gats has some decisions to make.

Our set piece was creaky yesterday, and really took away away any momentum from our game, preventing us from getting our dangerous backs into the game. It handed England possession and territory, and imo cost us the game.

Lineout: We need a recognized jumper at second row. If AWJ is a certain to start, then regardless of how well Ball is playing for the Scarlets, his partnership with AWJ isn't a balanced one. I'd bring Charteris in, and develop a lineout strategy around him. Ken Owens also needs to come back into the starting 15. He may be short of fitness after injury, but he's our best throwing hooker, and at the moment that's where we need stability. Hibbard offers a lot around the park, as does Baldwin, but both struggle under pressure lineout time.

Scrum: A decision needs to be made about Melon. He's betting penalised a lot, even before the ball is put into the scrum. It's hurting is badly on occasion. I think pressure from his side is also putting Samson Lee under pressure. Lee has a lot to learn, but I think he's better than he appeared yesterday. I'd retain Jenkins as an impact sub, and bring in another loosehead. Who though? Paul James isn't dominating in the scrum, and offers little elsewhere. Nicky Smith is injured. Rob Evans, untested. I really don't know, but I think a change needs to be made.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Very happy with the win ofcourse. Fantastic 2nd half performance.

Still thought the call to bring on Mako and Youngs so early was a poor one from Lancs. We went from have having total scrum dominance to it being fairly even. Against a stronger front 3 we could have handed them the momentum and potentially the match.

Considering it was the first time alot of our backline had played together, they were impressive. Watson's quick feet, solidness under the high ball and taking of the try were all very encouraging.

As for Wales, they aren't suddenly a poor team. They've shown this time and time again. I'm thinking Ireland 2013 (I was at the game) where they lost convincingly and then went on to lift the trophy. Thought the Welsh half backs were superb , with Biggar's drop goal before half time being an excellent piece of game management.

After reading so much about Samson Lee, I was surprised he had such a poor game. Yes, he's only young and will no doubt improve vastly over the next few years but the strength in depth in the front would be a worry for me ahead of the World Cup if I was a Wales fan.

Before the match, Gatland said that both teams would be holding back a bit for the World Cup. By playing the mind games, naming the team early, the ridiculous light show, providing a dossier to the referee of faults in England's attacking game and fielding his strongest possible team, but still coming up short, do you think he has shot himself in the foot slightly?

Anyway great game. Great start to the Six Nations. Credit to Welsh and England fans on TRF who are almost always are humble in defeat and victory.

Jolly good show!

 

[Wendigo7]

I agree with pretty much all of that Peat well said.

Think Ford was a 7 but I'd be petty. Attwood and Kruis deserve half a star more.

 

[ncurd]

So yeah pretty good game overall.

First up the game went through mire with scrums a few years back at least the things feel like a contest these day. I'm not too keen on the contest being to see who gets a penalty but I'm not entirely sure what else you can inflict for collapsing, not binding and standing up. I think ref can be a bit too harsh and inconsistent for the scrum just going backwards and a bit too quick to dole out yellow cards to players who just aren't as good at scrummaging as their opposite number.

With this in mind I do have to ask why Paul James didn't start for Wales, with current state of scrums and penalties shouldn't you be trying to play your two best prop's at scrummaging? Getting the upper hand there as England clearly did make a big difference to the outcome of game. Very few games you watch these day does the better scrummaging side loose because of the advantages in field position and points that can be obtains

I thought England were extremely impressive defensively in the second half, in the first half they were committing players to rucks and getting absolutely no rewards for it. In the second half it got almost to the comical stage of just a bunch of Welsh player lying on the floor at times. England were clearly winning the kicking battle and Wales were rarely breaking the gain line as England having the numbers could commit usually at least two player to the tackle. I thought it was quite tactically astute to change the plan like that and it was clearly effective, Wales got absolutely nowhere in the second half because of it.

In regards to defence of the bath players, yes they aren't the best but they are good enough. What they add in attacking play was in evidence and only really May was non-existent on the wing. I'd like to see Eastmond play but that would a little harsh on Burrel. I don't know how you can play Tuilangi and drop Joseph, yup Tuilangi offer you great crash ball anf was a shoo-in 1-2 years ago but Joseph adds much more than him including distribution and lack of selfish try-line fever (watch the try he set-up at Toulouse) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OaDfotGspw.

So yup pretty happy with the England victory and I was not expecting a win beforehand.

Wales really have to find plan B they've been playing this way for too many years now and never really felt like a great side for it just a very competent one.

 

[munstermuffin]

Said it a long time ago. There's always 1 team that stink in a 6Nations/RWC time and it looks like Wales now. Ireland had it under Eddie in 07. England under Johnson too. Wales biggest problem is Gatland is there too long and has his favourites. They're gone very stale and we'll need fresh voice to get the talent they have motoring.
On England. I've always been impressed by Lancaster since day 1 and what's worst is I like this English team. They're very likeable and well it's not clear yet to some but they've really built a cracking squad.

 

[dullonien]

I'm not really sure it was an issue of tactics yesterday. We were simply beaten up front, with a collapse of our set piece. It meant we had little field position, and were forced to kick. Back-foot ball was being shipped out to a static backline, making it easy for the English defence to hold up our runners behind the gain line.

When this happens, it doesn't really matter what the attacking tactics are, because it's impossible to get anything going.

We simply have to shure up our set piece, so that we can get some field position, phase play and momentum, so that we can actually get the likes of Warburton, Faletau and our backline carrying the ball against a defence on the back foot, and thus actually get Roberts, Davies and North into the game.

The old adage of forwards wins you the game, the backs decide by how much, is still very much true.

 

[Irishkid]

He did stop them, 2/3 metres past the gain line and that is important as it stops your defensive line getting off the next phase quickly. You do need a midfield defence that can stop opposition behind the gain line - a lot of that is actually to do with good line speed and not big tacklers.

The Welsh clearly targeted Fords channel yesterday as a means to get front foot ball pretending that they didn't or that it didn't have an effect is silly.

Regardless the point i'm making isn't that Ford doesn't tackle, or even that he didn't tackle (he was 7/1) it's the effectiveness of those tackles - he is not a big gain line defender and that's ok not everyone can be but don't pretend like he was smashing people back on the tackle line because he wasn't.




you've lost me.

Just saying Clermont has made Davies a worse Welsh player and has been a bad move for him.