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[2015 Six Nations] England

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Do you think Lancaster should take a punt on him in the warm ups and possibly bring him along anyway? Or do you think it's a gamble you do not need to take?

If he was Welsh, i'd have more than half a mind to really give him a shot because he is obviously a talent but still not ready, at least on first appearances. Would it not be wise to try him out in one big game now rather than later? Seems like he'd thrive or fall. I kind of feel the same about Anscombe. If Wales had done better at the start of this tournament i'd like to think he would get a chance at least from the bench. It's probably much more political than I am considering though.

What should happen with Burgess is wait and see. If he finishes the season strong, then lets put him in the warm-up squad and see how he looks. If he doesn't, then don't. There's a couple of months of rugby between now and then and its up to Burgess to show he's learning. I don't think anyone can safely predict how good a union player he'll be come the World Cup, so lets wait and see.

What will happen is that Burgess will be in the WC warmup squad barring injury or massive disaster, as Lancaster really wants him there and will give him every chance.
 
What should happen with Burgess is wait and see. If he finishes the season strong, then lets put him in the warm-up squad and see how he looks. If he doesn't, then don't. There's a couple of months of rugby between now and then and its up to Burgess to show he's learning. I don't think anyone can safely predict how good a union player he'll be come the World Cup, so lets wait and see.

What will happen is that Burgess will be in the WC warmup squad barring injury or massive disaster, as Lancaster really wants him there and will give him every chance.

Too bloody late! You want to play him in the RWC after three games? Rubbish!!
 
Burgess isn't even the best 12 at his club - or the second best. He's only the third best because Henson left a few weeks ago.
There's no way he'll go to the RWC, unless there's 101 injuries.
 
Wouldn't work. Simply too small to be exposed to that many one on one tackles. There's a reason Bath have never tried him there.
They did try him there for three games in Dec 2013/Jan 2014. I think that tells you all you need to know about how it went down.
 
Apparently Burrell is crocked.

Not sure whether he's just not training this week or if he's out for Scotland, but if he is then it leaves the door open for Goode in the 23 shirt :(
 
Apparently Burrell is crocked.

Not sure whether he's just not training this week or if he's out for Scotland, but if he is then it leaves the door open for Goode in the 23 shirt :(

Calf Strain. Should be good by the weekend.
 
Good I want to see Burrell and JJ form a partnership. The only problem is a lack of a kicking game, but with Wigglesworth you have a left and right foot option with Brown a long boot as well.
 
Or how well it went at IC?
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Ok, I'm going to throw out a theory.

I think Lancaster's current attacking strategy places a lot of emphasis on width. Its very common to see both wingers hugging their touchlines. Pods of forwards attack the fringes - more often on one out than pick and go. They're rarely big pods thought - we like to secure the ball with only two men because that leaves more people out in the loose to force their defence wide. The idea seems to be to force some momentum from those pods, then hope that because you're wide, the opposition either a) has to leave gaps or b) leave the wingers unmarked and if you generate some momentum, that's your way through. We probably try to find those gaps with a big runner in the centres first (no 8 or Tuilagi) before going really wide.

And it makes some sense.

Except it doesn't for this current team.

The half-backs are the most obvious example of that. Youngs' favoured game probably involves more running than passing. Ford's strengths too lie in getting flat to the line and either stepping or giving. As GN10 has pointed out, a lot of the time Ford is relying on Eastmond for going wide. Both Youngs and Ford want to attack the fringe over and over and our best spells to date with them has seen them doing that.

But look at the rest of the team. Our forwards, particularly the present mob, are not particularly fast nor known for razor-sharp clearing out. What guys like Vunipola, Haskell, Attwood and Robshaw offer is yards in tight confines. Most of them even have some pretty decent skills too if you give them support runners and put them into collisions they'll win. I guess a team with Launchbury, Lawes and an in form Wood does offer more to a wider game - but they're not fit, and even then, Wood isn't exactly the dream 6 for a wide game.

Burrell at 12 is not the distributor for a wide game but is the powerful support runner for a fairly narrow one. Mike Brown is, imo, stand-out at attacking fringes. But we seem to be trying to convert him into a distributor in wider channels. Why? Ben Foden's good at that, Mike Brown's good at supporting runners and using footwork to gain 10 yards in a crowded situation.

Either England's selection or emphasis needs to change imo. Personally I'd rather see us commit more men to the ruck, consider gambling on starting Vunipola and/or Youngs in the front row and start bringing the wingers and Joseph in-field more in an attempt to really punish the fringes. But you could make a case for starting Eastmond or Twelvetrees, starting Croft to put some real pace and support play in the back row. Would be more of a goer if Launchbury, Morgan and Foden were fit - not that I expect a lot of agreement on that idea, but it'd be logical changes for a team looking to play quick and wide.

Or we could even just play our best set-piece pack, Wigglesworth and Ford at half-back, and two wingers picked for chasing and pretend we're Ireland. I'm not sure I'd like that, but it would at least be a team suited to its gameplan.

And that, imo, is what we've not got at the moment.
 
Eastmond starting must be a fair shout now in all honesty.
 
Turnovers x 800

I guess he isn't George Smith, but he is great over the ball. He would also be perfect for us. God what happens if Pocock and Hooper play in the same back row ?

It all depends on the individuals and whether blindside is suited to them. In theory it could be devastating, but so was the prospect of Phil Waugh and George Smith in the same 15. That experiment didn't last long. Having two opensiders lurking around doesn't always in itself solve getting pounded at ruck time. I see that with the Crusaders, and they have McCaw and Todd playing together. Although that's more to do with the backline running from side to side, going nowhere, and getting isolated.
 
Eastmond starting must be a fair shout now in all honesty.

I really can't see it happening, I don't think Lancaster will ever play Eastmond and Ford in the same backline (unless it's either against, like, Canada, or Eastmond converts to thirteen) because he doesn't trust them next to each other in defence.

Hell, I don't trust them next to each other in defence, and I'm a big advocate of Bath players for England. Although given our results during the 6N window, I'm starting to become less of one ...
 
Peat, you're definitely right that England want to play a wide game, and that one of the problems is that they don't have the players for it, but the other problem is that they don't know what an effective wide game is. Just watch the first half of the Ireland game again, particularly the two times we got the ball out to Nowell on the left wing. What happened was this: Burrell hit it up in midfield; the ball went behind a forwards back to Ford; the ball was passed along the back line to Nowell. The result? Nowell taken into touch on both occasions. Is this really the best Mike Catt can come up with? On the evidence of the last few seasons I would say it is. We have made exactly the same mistake in many other games, i.e. going wide too early, and this is also what you see when you watch Brian Smith's London Irish teams, which isn't very surprising when you think that Smith was his mentor. I remember reading an interview with an England player where they talked about the improvement in England's attacking game under Smith (it did improve, but then Johnson picked Wilkinson over Flood and it went back to square one). They said that it had taken Smith a while to concentrate on something other than set-piece moves. I think Catt has made exactly the same mistake - a couple of nice set-piece moves do not make up for the complete lack of a effective multi-phase attacking strategy.

If you look at how the best teams in the Premiership (never mind the world) attack, all of them earn the right to go wide (sorry for the cliché, couldn't think how else to say it): Northampton, Saracens, Bath, Exeter. One of the reasons that England aren't earning the right is that the pod strategy you already mentioned. It works for the All Black's, because they use Retallick in the pod to vary the point of attack. Exeter and Bath are also very good at varying the point of attack in the pod. We seemed to be trying to copy this with Parling and Launchbury playing the Retallick role a couple of seasons back. Since they have been out of the team however, no one has taken up this role (unlike in the All Blacks, where Thrush has come in and played the Retallick role perfectly). In the absence of these players, the opposing team knows who the ball carrier is, and usually stops them on, or behind, the gainline. I think if we don't have the players available to play this system, we would be better off with playing around the corner like Northampton, but it is probably too late for England to change their attacking strategy, so unless Parling or Launchbury come back I can't see how we're going to improve this part of our game.
 
Peat, you're definitely right that England want to play a wide game, and that one of the problems is that they don't have the players for it, but the other problem is that they don't know what an effective wide game is. Just watch the first half of the Ireland game again, particularly the two times we got the ball out to Nowell on the left wing. What happened was this: Burrell hit it up in midfield; the ball went behind a forwards back to Ford; the ball was passed along the back line to Nowell. The result? Nowell taken into touch on both occasions. Is this really the best Mike Catt can come up with? On the evidence of the last few seasons I would say it is. We have made exactly the same mistake in many other games, i.e. going wide too early, and this is also what you see when you watch Brian Smith's London Irish teams, which isn't very surprising when you think that Smith was his mentor. I remember reading an interview with an England player where they talked about the improvement in England's attacking game under Smith (it did improve, but then Johnson picked Wilkinson over Flood and it went back to square one). They said that it had taken Smith a while to concentrate on something other than set-piece moves. I think Catt has made exactly the same mistake - a couple of nice set-piece moves do not make up for the complete lack of a effective multi-phase attacking strategy.

If you look at how the best teams in the Premiership (never mind the world) attack, all of them earn the right to go wide (sorry for the cliché, couldn't think how else to say it): Northampton, Saracens, Bath, Exeter. One of the reasons that England aren't earning the right is that the pod strategy you already mentioned. It works for the All Black's, because they use Retallick in the pod to vary the point of attack. Exeter and Bath are also very good at varying the point of attack in the pod. We seemed to be trying to copy this with Parling and Launchbury playing the Retallick role a couple of seasons back. Since they have been out of the team however, no one has taken up this role (unlike in the All Blacks, where Thrush has come in and played the Retallick role perfectly). In the absence of these players, the opposing team knows who the ball carrier is, and usually stops them on, or behind, the gainline. I think if we don't have the players available to play this system, we would be better off with playing around the corner like Northampton, but it is probably too late for England to change their attacking strategy, so unless Parling or Launchbury come back I can't see how we're going to improve this part of our game.

Agree with all of that, and is something i've pointed out on a number of occasions, we want to play that one off runner style new zealand do, but we don't execute close enough to the tackle line and, say for example, Marler isn't really a good enough decision maker under pressure. It's either trucked up from a mile out giving the defence time to shift, or they distribute too deep giving the defence time to shift.

I really think around the corner is the best option for a team of Englands size and ability.

The key to say Baths attack is Eastmond, he runs the wide game Ford and cook tend to run the short gain line game and the wide moves come on Eastmonds call, don't think it's too late to shift back to an aroudn the corner flow pattern as it's essentially the pattern English kids are taught from about 13 onwards.
 
Jesus, if we agree on something then it must be true! Actually, to give you your due, I read that thing on your website about Bath's attack and thought it was some good analysis...but that was before I knew who wrote it!
 
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I really can't see it happening, I don't think Lancaster will ever play Eastmond and Ford in the same backline (unless it's either against, like, Canada, or Eastmond converts to thirteen) because he doesn't trust them next to each other in defence.

Hell, I don't trust them next to each other in defence, and I'm a big advocate of Bath players for England. Although given our results during the 6N window, I'm starting to become less of one ...
I just don't think the coaching setup are good enough in my opinion.

There is a bit of overcoaching and the players are a bit green, but it's plain to see they are implementing a game plan we as a team in it's current form aren't setup for. He also has people he can go to, who to be frank are very much 10 man rugby in the mold type players.

I still think Kvesic should be our 7 and I'm a quins fan. Robshaw as captain and at 6 I'd have no issue with, but we really need a 7. Any 7 who's solely at the breakdown is better than nothing because they tend to be intuitively better at decision making at the breakdown than Robbo for example. Robbo does top just about every stat yes, but if he could do what he does at 6, he'd still be a lineout option, he'd still be captain, he'd still do the link play, he'd still basically do the same role he does now, it frees up the 7 position for Kvesic to run amuck which we sorely lack.

Lanny does have it in his mind that if we are the most experienced side going we are the best side going, which patently is wrong. He keeps saying we need more caps, we need more caps, Wales didn't need that many more caps to win the 3 or 4 grand slams they have.

To me it's a coaching issue, with a few players in the side not carrying their weight when they should and maybe we just are not good enough which is fine I can take that, but it's also a coaching issue.
 
Brad Barritt to come straight back in for Burrell apparently.
 
That would fit with Lancaster's way of thinking!
 
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