[2015 Six Nations] England

[TommiG88]

Not bothered to be honest, rankings mean very little between 3-5 at the moment. The 3 teams are evenly matched, although winner of the game may see themselves as the 3rd best team in the world. Seeing as nz SA will probably be one of the semis, I can see the other one being eng/aus vs ire.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Not bothered to be honest, rankings mean very little between 3-5 at the moment. The 3 teams are evenly matched, although winner of the game may see themselves as the 3rd best team in the world. Seeing as nz SA will probably be one of the semis, I can see the other one being eng/aus vs ire.

I'd actually go as far to say that 2-4 are similar, SA beat ENG, ENG beat IRE and IRE beat SA the last time they played, Australia aren't up to the same standard as 2-4 yet in my opinion. And although I know the Kiwis will hate it, 2-4 aren't far off from NZ either. Bring on the world cup!

 

[j'nuh]

I think it's because they have much stronger links between levels - you can play for your amateur then semi pro then NPC then Super Rugby as a progression, whereas that doesn't really happen in England. Obviously there are "feeder" clubs, and also guys in the championship sometimes get picked up by Prem sides, but Premiership clubs tend to be self contained, identifying teenagers, getting them into their academy and then working with them until they're adults. They're not going to be looking at 20yr olds playing in the 4th tier as potential players (though this has happened a few time - I think Billy Meakes was playing third tier rugby before Gloucester).

Our main clubs have the most resource-intensive academies, so suck in all of the young talent within a region, meaning that there is less movement needed from lower league to upper league later on.

I don't get why anyone would read too much into this Symons thing. No one can say for certain how good a player will be as an adult when they are a teenager. There's always going to be players that slip through the net. It doesn't make the NZ system better; it's that he became a better player and then got noticed in NZ. Would he have been noticed in England? Well, if he was playing to a standard that makes him good enough to captain the Chiefs, I'd be surprised if he wasn't able to move past amateur level here...

 

[Peat]

Our main clubs have the most resource-intensive academies, so suck in all of the young talent within a region, meaning that there is less movement needed from lower league to upper league later on.

I don't get why anyone would read too much into this Symons thing. No one can say for certain how good a player will be as an adult when they are a teenager. There's always going to be players that slip through the net. It doesn't make the NZ system better; it's that he became a better player and then got noticed in NZ. Would he have been noticed in England? Well, if he was playing to a standard that makes him good enough to captain the Chiefs, I'd be surprised if he wasn't able to move past amateur level here...

Would he have got the same opportunities to be a better player in England that he did in NZ? Would he have got the opportunity to be promoted so quickly? He seems to be saying he doesn't believe he would - why would we think he's mistaken?

 

[Raggs]

Is it that surprising anyway? Rugby is much more popular and played at a higher level in general at amateur I'd guess, probably much more likely to keep playing in NZ, and more likely to be noticed I'd have thought.

Good luck to the guy. Our academies are going from strength to strength, as shown by our age grade successes, we're playing good rugby, often have a smaller pack/squad than most our major opponents (true at least in the jwcs). Some are missed, others are found, it happens. Kruis was the lanky rake who was kept (quite possibly over Symons), that doesn't look like bad call?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Smaller player pool presumably means any one individual is more likely to get noticed too

 

[goodNumber10]

Would he have got the same opportunities to be a better player in England that he did in NZ? Would he have got the opportunity to be promoted so quickly? He seems to be saying he doesn't believe he would - why would we think he's mistaken?

I have a slightly different take on this (what he's claiming).

He was in the Saracens academy which is all very well but his athletic development really came from the British Rowing period. There is very little evidence he would have made it as a pro-player if Sarries had stayed with him.

But he went into an elite performance scheme with the Olympic team which made his transition back to Pro-rugby easier later on.

So i'm not sure it's really fair to claim that England as such have over looked him he's just had a very different career path that was of his own making.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't that the point he's making?
The NZ system allows for late bloomers to get a better shot than our system where if you're not good enough at 18/19 then that's usually it.

 

[Raggs]

But then you have people like Cooper-Woolley who dropped out at 16 from the quins academy, started playing again at Uni, and from there brought himself back into contention.

And lets be completely honest, having checked, he was playing championship rugby before he left to NZ... so it's not that he disappeared, he was just no longer in an academy, instead he was playing professionally. Plenty of players come up from the championship after a few years, or even later.

It just sounds like he fancied a move, and developed there instead of here.

 

[j'nuh]

Isn't that the point he's making?
The NZ system allows for late bloomers to get a better shot than our system where if you're not good enough at 18/19 then that's usually it.

Maybe it happens to a greater degree in New Zealand, I'm not sure. But I think our clubs are pretty damn good at bringing in older players. The clubs are fairly good at identifying talent from lower leagues and even other nations via a robust scouting system. (Teams actually have to be fairly good at it if they want to get the best value out of the salary cap.) Age isn't necessarily a factor here. Maybe Gloucester do it more than others though? From the current team:
Rob Cook: Nuneaton at 23, Cornish Pirates at 25 and then Gloucester at 28.
Sione Kalamafoni: from Nottingham at 24
David Halaifonua: from the third level in France at 27
Steve McColl: from Yorkshire at 25
Mark Atkinson: from Bedford at 24
Sila Puafisi: from Tasman at 24
Jacob Rowan: from Yorkshire at 24
Darren Dawidiuk: from Pirates at 22

Like, I have no doubt that Symons would have been like any one of these players had he stuck around in England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Gloucester signing Kalamafoni, Halaifonua, Puafisi and two of Yorkshire's best players is hardly a ringing endorsement of the English system in terms of developing players, is it?

 

[nickdnz]

The beauty of the New Zealand system is that progression is entirely facilitated. If you play club rugby for the second XV and do well, you move on the the first XV. From the first XV if you do well enough you can get selected for the NPC. From NPC you get selected to Super Rugby. That's a valid way of selection regardless of other methods. Then there are also additional academies set up for young players, which go on to play for youth representative teams (within a greater region - or national team). So progression is sort of two pronged, you can get selected through playing well at each level, and if you stand out you advance - or if you show great promise younger you may get offered a contract before being brilliant in premier club rugby (Rieko Ioane seems to be signed already for the Blues despite being just 17 and out of college). I think if there is an advantage NZ have over England in terms of player identification, is that there is simply greater cooperation between all levels of rugby. Clubs are actively promoting their players to be selected for higher teams, rather than being thankful of keeping them.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

May to be replaced by Nowell

Lancaster has hinted that May will lose out to Nowell after the latter's strong showing at the weekend and May's butchering of that try against Italy along with his fairly weak defensive performance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...place-threat-form-Jack-Nowell-bombed-try.html

I for one would be much happier seeing Nowell line up opposite Bowe. I also like the ruthlessness from Lancaster if he follows through with it - if we really want to challenge the All Blacks, players need to know that if they aren't at the top of their game they will lose their place i.e. Dagg when he hit that run of poor form. Not saying the door should be closed on May by any stretch, but a bit of form based rotation can only be good for the team.

 

[lulukind1207]

Hi, can somebody recommend a good website to watch RBS nations online?

 

[nickdnz]

Lancaster has hinted that May will lose out to Nowell after the latter's strong showing at the weekend and May's butchering of that try against Italy along with his fairly weak defensive performance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...place-threat-form-Jack-Nowell-bombed-try.html

I for one would be much happier seeing Nowell line up opposite Bowe. I also like the ruthlessness from Lancaster if he follows through with it - if we really want to challenge the All Blacks, players need to know that if they aren't at the top of their game they will lose their place i.e. Dagg when he hit that run of poor form. Not saying the door should be closed on May by any stretch, but a bit of form based rotation can only be good for the team.

Terrible example sorry mate. Dagg has been in terrible form since 2012. Ben Smith has been the inform fullback in New Zealand, certainly for the last three years. This year Ben Smith was used almost exclusively on wing (barring two games against England and I believe a EOYT match).

I'm never convinced by that particular approach anyway, certainly from England. I think maybe some players take their position for granted when they've been well established there, but England's selection policy of abandoning players (particularly outside backs) after one or two average games, probably does a lot more harm than good. Players are put under a ridiculous amount of pressure (which I think means players are less able to express themselves and therefore play more conservatively), they aren't given a good chance to learn from their mistakes and develop into the role, and the team never gets the chance to build combinations. How many different wingers and centres have England used over the last two years? Let's just do a quick count off the top of my head:

Wingers: May, Nowell, Watson, Foden, Yarde, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi (as a winger...), Ashton, Wade, Monye.
Centres: Twelvetrees, Farrell (as a 12), Barrett, Eastmond, Burrell, Joseph, Slade, Tuilagi, Myler

Again there is probably more to that list. What is more interesting is that most of the named options were considered more or less incumbents to the position. Even at flyhalf you have the same problems...

The reality is that New Zealand don't drop players very often. They stick with combinations - and players are given quite a lot of room to hold down a position. I'm not even a particularly big May fan (although I don't think much of Nowell), but I think the revolving door of back line players is terrible when trying to develop a team, especially in the year of a home World Cup...I'm pretty sure complacency isn't a factor that any player in England's entire backline has been in there long enough to experience.

 

[goodNumber10]

Isn't that the point he's making?
The NZ system allows for late bloomers to get a better shot than our system where if you're not good enough at 18/19 then that's usually it.

Nope.

what i'm saying is it's actually the Rowing that should be credited as he was essentially an elite athlete when he was with them - they've developed him to the physical standards he needed. Without that he'd probably never have broken through here or there.

 

[Peat]

If you're saying you have no doubt Symons would have reached the level of a Glaws squad player when he's over there being Chiefs captain, I think that may prove his point...

There's plenty of players who drop a level or more - or just avoided the academies altogether here - and who came through. It's not like English clubs ignore the chance for these players. But how much top talent does it gain? Is the process as efficient as over there?

All sorts of possible reasons. I suspect none of us genuinely have the first scooby about how the two systems can be compared, certainly not compared to Symons, so I'm bowing out.


edit: +Everything to Nick's post.

 

[ncurd]

I don't think there is revolving door a fair few of those players lost their spots due too injury, some a complete loss of form(Ashton) or just plain never really suiting the position.

Infact I would suggest that dropping May if it happens is possibly one of thew times Lancaster hasn't reluctantly dropped a player and done it through just not looking good enough in a few games.

 

[Raggs]

While I agree about Daggs form, Monye and Slade haven't played for England in the last 2 years. Myler just gets in, along with Wade, due to the Argentina tour, but Myler hasn't been a serious pick since then, injured now when he may have featured.

Centres vary, but a large amount of that can easily be put down to injury or unavailability (nz tour), making it tough to setup long term partners anyway. Foden only got back in on the wing due to injuries.

I would agree there's too much turnaround, and not all enforced, but it's not as bad as you're making it out.

 

[goodNumber10]

If you're saying you have no doubt Symons would have reached the level of a Glaws squad player when he's over there being Chiefs captain, I think that may prove his point...

There's plenty of players who drop a level or more - or just avoided the academies altogether here - and who came through. It's not like English clubs ignore the chance for these players. But how much top talent does it gain? Is the process as efficient as over there?

All sorts of possible reasons. I suspect none of us genuinely have the first scooby about how the two systems can be compared, certainly not compared to Symons, so I'm bowing out.


edit: +Everything to Nick's post.

Sorry mate, was that directed at me?