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[2015 Six Nations] England

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I think Hartley should lose his place for England. We will miss his lineout work no doubt but he was involved in 2 dodgy situations in the EOYT, got a red last year and now has another red. His discipline is not good enough any more and he needs to be told to behave or he will lose his place permenantly. England's discipline as a whole has been slipping recently and the last thing we need is cards on top of all the penalties we've begun to give away. Wood also needs talking to as people can wind him up very easily.
 
Woah there j'nuh. His age has nothing to do with what he's doing now. If you're bringing that into the argument, I've got to question why you're thinking it...
I more brought it up because I think it means his final skill ceiling is even higher than it is now.

Fair points on the rest though. Maybe I overstated him. Not entirely certain. Although, FWIW, I never thought Corbisiero was actually particularly amazing in the loose either. The appeal of Corbs was more that he was a scrummaging beast. If Corbs can come back and show that same scrummaging ability, then he'd be a shoe-in (because I do love me a scrummaging front 5, it's one area I think England can target as a source of strength). I'm just more hesitant than anything else.

What I guess it boils down to is that you have a proven 8/10 scrummager vs. a hypothetical 10/10 scrummager.
 
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I think Hartley should lose his place for England. We will miss his lineout work no doubt but he was involved in 2 dodgy situations in the EOYT, got a red last year and now has another red. His discipline is not good enough any more and he needs to be told to behave or he will lose his place permenantly. England's discipline as a whole has been slipping recently and the last thing we need is cards on top of all the penalties we've begun to give away. Wood also needs talking to as people can wind him up very easily.

Tbh I think Woods days are numbered anyway . I can see Launchbury going in at 6 when he comes back, would be great to see Ewers in there though . Just think we have come a long way from Tom Johnson though ^^
 
I more brought it up because I think it means his final skill ceiling is even higher than it is now.

Fair points on the rest though. Maybe I overstated him. Not entirely certain. Although, FWIW, I never thought Corbisiero was actually particularly amazing in the loose either. The appeal of Corbs was more that he was a scrummaging beast. If Corbs can come back and show that same scrummaging ability, then he'd be a shoe-in (because I do love me a scrummaging front 5, it's one area I think England can target as a source of strength). I'm just more hesitant than anything else.

What I guess it boils down to is that you have a proven 8/10 scrummager vs. a hypothetical 10/10 scrummager.

If you want to make an argument about what Marler could be, or his intrinsic value to England as a long term player, sure that's important, but to say he's passed Corbs now? It has to be about what he is now. And I've made my arguments and seen other people's and remain largely unmoved on my belief that, fine player that he is, he isn't effective enough at international level to be considered ahead of what Corbs can do.

Incidentally, if making arguments about potential, and if you believe that Corbs' knee problems are all fixed and he's ready to truck (maaaaaybe)... then he's only 2 years older than Marler and probably has had less gametime to learn in, plus less gametime may mean he'll go on longer. Plenty of reason to believe he could learn plenty more as well.

I feel people underrate Corbs in the loose. He doesn't have any amazing standout traits, but he's industrious and powerful. Out of my somewhat random sample (i.e. as many games as I could be bothered to open up and look at in a tab), he's got .6 more tackles a game than Marler (think I did the maths right), misses less tackles, makes good metres per carry (better than Marler)... didn't bother looking at who gave away more turnovers and cba to do that right now (or ever). He's not renowned for his breakdown work, but he has saved England's bacon before there (2012 vs Scotland iirc). He has a frustratingly low carry count - Marler by contrast offers himself for plenty of carries, he just never gets anywhere - and I don't know what his rucks hit stat looks like; but I've noted him having a big loose impact in some games, he's got good stats in other departments.
 
It has to be about what he is now.

Right.

And what he is right now is a player who can point to the last 2 years of his rugby credentials and show you what he was, is now and accordingly, what he probably will be.

Right now Corbs cannot do that.
 
Right.

And what he is right now is a player who can point to the last 2 years of his rugby credentials and show you what he was, is now and accordingly, what he probably will be.

Right now Corbs cannot do that.

I'll take Corbs' two cup winners medals in the last twelve months as credentials enough to be going on with.

p.s. Deffo was the Scotland game, checked in the 6N forum. Also, there's a thread from 2011 calling for Marler, and I'm the only mofo in there calling for Corbs... check me out, I'm so smart.
 
I'll take Corbs' two cup winners medals in the last twelve months as credentials enough to be going on with.
.

On that basis Donald having one RWC winners medal is better than Carter with none!!!
 
Little different considering corbs has proven himself to be world class at every level from club up to international/Lions.
 
By that token he's also shown he can't be counted on to stay fit so there is no point in selecting him.

He needs to come back and play a run of games like every other player.
 
By that token he's also shown he can't be counted on to stay fit so there is no point in selecting him.

He needs to come back and play a run of games like every other player.

I am somewhat struggling to understand your point here, although I'm pretty sure I disagree with whatever it is.

The point of these series of posts was to question people who seemed to be saying "It doesn't matter if Corbs isn't fit, Marler's just as good/better now anyway". I view Corbs' fitness as irrelevant to that question. Either Marler is as good as Corbs can be, or he's not. Either fitness issues with Corbs are still a blow, albeit one we might have got very used to, or they're not. You can even ignore Corbs pretty much entirely and reframe the question as "Does Marler fit to some people's billing of him as an England star" if you really want. I've been looking for traits, statistics, performances, something that can support that because I ain't seen it - and so far, it's not coming.

Now, bringing it back to Corbs, maybe you reckon his true level of performance is unknown because he's spent so much time injured. I'm not going to go along with that in the case of a player who was last playing in September and looking pretty good. I don't need a lengthy run of games for someone who's pretty much proven it all already.

Or maybe you think we have to rely on players who have proven themselves more likely to be fit, or at least bring that into the equation, and I'm not going to agree with that. Either a player is available or they're not, and either they're better than the alternative or they're not. That's how I view it - and judging on how Northampton parachuted him in for two cup finals, judging on the isolated games he keeps popping up for in windows for England, and judging on a whole host of other players that routinely walk back into their team for three months or so before getting crocked again - I think that's how most of the world views it.

I'm also mildly bemused as to why people are happy to talk about Tuilagi - who's only managed a window more of availability than Corbs since the Lions tour - as a shoo-in, and Croft - who has an even worse availability record - as a live possibility/shoo-in (not so much of that opinion around here) without any of this in-drawing of breath. I get that the scrummaging changing thing is a bit of an issue (although, actually, how many props have gained or lost big from it?) but, as noted, he's won a couple of cup medals under the new laws and his last performance before the dislocation got a fair bit of praise for his performance vs Wilson. Early signs are all good.

You'll take them for Callum Clark too then?

The only credentials I'll accept for Callum Clark are his internal body organs, cast into a volcano before his eyes.
 
I don't know how you framed your original question.

Let's not conflate this...

My opinion of both players:

Marler - Solid, consistently 7/8 out of 10 player at international level. The main reason for rating him is (as I've said previously) his very low error rate paired with a decent workrate.
Watch him closely and I guarantee that practically all of his involvements are of a high quality - very few of them are either the wrong thing to do, or executed badly.
The complete opposite of someone like 36. He's also made of tungsten - he's played 4949mins of premiership rugby over 6 seasons with no serious injuries that I can recall... compared with Corbisiero's 2864 over 7 seasons.

Corbisiero - His scrummaging is utterly dominant on occasion. However... he is also someone who could suffer from refs realising that he drives practically horizontally very often. If that happens his reputation could make him more of a liability than a boon.
Quality contributions in the loose. Injured all the time - and consequently stifled in trying to find form, whilst also being given a far healthier amount of rest time than most players.

Is Corbisiero better than Marler on form? Definitely... does Corbisiero come straight back in when fit? No.
What does he need to do in order to be first choice? Play 3+ games for Northampton and prove he is fully fit and in form.

I don't think Croft, Tuilagi, Cole or any other injured test player should come straight back into the England side without first proving form and fitness.
 
Now, bringing it back to Corbs, maybe you reckon his true level of performance is unknown because he's spent so much time injured. I'm not going to go along with that in the case of a player who was last playing in September and looking pretty good. I don't need a lengthy run of games for someone who's pretty much proven it all already.
Peat, I think we disagree much less than you would think. Pretty much our only difference is in the opinion of whether Corbs will come back and be like his old self.

The Corbisiero of a year and a half ago is our best player and potentially the best loosehead in the world. (Although when Corbs was at his best, I think Healy was still slightly better. And Ayerza is doing very well now. This is no slight to Corbs though, loosehead is a very competitive position right now.)

Our difference of opinion is whether he'll come back and be that player. You think it's likely. I am a lot less sure.

Firstly, even if Corbisiero had stayed fit all through this period, he may have dipped. He got injured at his absolute peak. There was no evidence to suggest that he would have sustained that peak. Getting injured when he did almost immortalised him as this fantastic player. He may have kept this up, he may not have. There have been absolutely tons of England players over the last few years that I've said were world class and then they have went on to dip significantly some time afterwards. Guys like Cole, Lawes (started to look good again in 2014 after a couple of years of not being worth a look in), Wood, Youngs, Ashton, Foden and more recently, Brown.

Secondly, he's played in 10+3 games out of 47 for Saints in the Premiership and in Europe. That's nearly 3/4 of the last year and a half missed. Coming back in brief periods and looking good doesn't cut it for me as proving that he's come back the same player that he was when he first got injured. I don't count outscrummaging Stevens in one final as a massive achievement personally. Outscrummaging Wilson (taking your word for it here because I don't think I watched that final) is a pretty significant thing to do, but one game taken in isolation doesn't impress me. (A fond memory of mine is Shaun Knight, not exactly someone you'd call a superstar in the prop world, destroying the Saints scrum back when it was generally dominant with Tonga'uiha and Mujati.) Aside from scrummaging, what is his fitness like after all that time out? Has he lost a bit of pace? Is his loose game weaker for having all that time out? There are many things that need answering before we say that he's still our best player.

I also concur with rats. Injured players need to prove themselves before coming back in. I suspect that Corbs and Tuilagi will manage this fine, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
 
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By that token he's also shown he can't be counted on to stay fit so there is no point in selecting him.

He needs to come back and play a run of games like every other player.

if he's fit to play and the best option why wouldn't you pick him?

I think Lanky has been quite good in not selecting guys who are not game fit - Farrell is the only one i can really think who has been selected despite clearly needing game time.
 
if he's fit to play and the best option why wouldn't you pick him?

Where did I say I wouldn't?

All I've said is he needs to come in a prove he is fit and the best in his position.
He doesn't need to completely re-prove his worth as if he was a player we've never heard of, but I'm not big on assuming someone you haven't seen play a string of games for a very long time is the best in his position.
 
if he's fit to play and the best option why wouldn't you pick him?

I think Lanky has been quite good in not selecting guys who are not game fit - Farrell is the only one i can really think who has been selected despite clearly needing game time.

Croft in the 2013 6N was a pretty dodgy call. Twelvetrees was parachuted straight back in against New Zealand following injury last summer and that was an awful call. He's wheeled out Corbs to the bench at least on the back of not a lot of gametime a few times and dropped Tuilagi back in quite quickly at least once, but those have worked pretty well tbf. There was also Davey Wilson last 6N, but a) That pretty much had to be done due to Cole's injury b) we got away with it.

He is, imo, pretty quick to bring back people he rates, and regardless of the rest of it - which I don't have the time to reply sensibly on atm - I think expecting him to only look at Corbs if he gets a run of games is, imo, not well founded.

Besides, Corbs is meant to be back next game.
 
Well then, if he stays fit we'll be able to properly judge whether he goes straight back to the top of the log then, wont we!?

Bath United team to face London Irish A

15. Horacio Agulla
14. Darren Atkins
13. Olly Woodburn
12. Ollie Devoto
11. Richard Lane
10. Rory Jennings
9. Will Homer
1. Beno Obano
2. Tom Woolstencroft
3. Kane Palma-Newport
4. Tom Ellis
5. Charlie Ewels ( c )
6. Sam Burgess
7. Guy Mercer
8. David Sisi

Replacements

16. Tom Dunn
17. Matt Shields
18. Dan Keat
19. Will Spencer
20. Max Northcote-Green
21. Calum Waters
22. Marcus Beer
23. Ed Coulson


Might be worth watching for the neutral... Bath stream their home A games.
 
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