[2015 Six Nations] England

[j'nuh]

Not being funny here, but I'm wondering whether you actually think all of that, or whether you got caught up some sort of rush and was posting any old thing to disagree because you're not happy with the pro-experience arguments? I ask because some of your statements were so outlandish and contrary to my memory, I had to dig back to double check things.

Take Foden, f'instance. You say he dipped big after 2010. But back in 2012, you mentioned him for Team of the week vs Scotland, so he can't have been doing that bad. He'd have been in your 15 in February, May, and November of that year. Doesn't read like you think he'd dipped since 2010 there.

Speaking of changing minds, the same exercise with Haskell; apparently in March 2012, he was a talented specialist 6. In June, you had him ahead of Robshaw. Yet apparently you've never rated him for England?

So there we go. An unimpeachable on the spot witness who agrees with me that both players were definitely in contention. What odds I could find you talking about some of the other guys as England options back in 2012/2013?

I would also add for the factual record that Foden was shifted to the wing to accommodate Alex Goode after Mike Brown got injured; and that the injury-prone Matthew Tait has played 3 more club games than Jonny May since the 2012-13 season.

I'm in no way saying Lancaster made mistakes or should have played a bunch of old guys (Easter was an example of the sort of guy around, not someone who should have been picked). The point is simply that there were experienced options and Lancaster didn't use them. That's it, and I fail to see how that's contentious.

Touche, haha took me to the cleaners on this one

My opinions have shifted over time, so has my recollection of the facts. :huh:

But that doesn't diminish some of what I'm saying. You're asking whether Foden should have been relied on more? Well, he was at the beginning. There came a point where Brown was clearly the better player though, and it's hard to argue that Foden should have kept his place at that point.

Robshaw, I got caught up in the errors he was making when he first showed up for England. I put it down to him not being good enough, but I think I may have been a little too hasty.

Haskell, fair enough though. That's actually quite surprising that I said that.

 

[Tony Manx]

blimey! you're going to hold someone to something they said 4 years ago?

That is why I could be a decent politician...............cannot even remember what I said yesterday!!!

 

[Peat]

Touche, haha took me to the cleaners on this one

My opinions have shifted over time, so has my recollection of the facts. :huh:

But that doesn't diminish some of what I'm saying. You're asking whether Foden should have been relied on more? Well, he was at the beginning. There came a point where Brown was clearly the better player though, and it's hard to argue that Foden should have kept his place at that point.

Robshaw, I got caught up in the errors he was making when he first showed up for England. I put it down to him not being good enough, but I think I may have been a little too hasty.

Haskell, fair enough though. That's actually quite surprising that I said that.

Memory is a treacherous thing

I'm not asking whether/saying Foden should have been relied on more. I'm just saying he had performed for Lancaster and established himself as an option; Lancaster's response was to dispose of his services as a full-back before he got injured/lost form. I'm saying that Lancaster had experience and chose not to use it. And it wasn't for Mike Brown. Well, ok, first it was; then Brown gets injured, Foden goes back to FB for a game, then back to the wing to make way for Goode. Then the SA tour is over, Goode remains full-back for a year and Foden basically disappears from England's view. Two sub appearances against Argentina at FB, two games on the wing. Meanwhile, Goode is still popping up off the bench and forcing Brown to wing; it's not just about whether Brown is/was/remains the better player, the same question extends to Goode as well.

It would take too much effort, be too besides the point, and involve making too many "what if" guesses to talk about whether these things were mistakes; my point is simply about point out existing options and decisions made.

And the Hask was pretty decent back then, I'm telling you man :lol:

I don't think that means he doesn't value experience though... I think he just wanted to give experience to guys he believed would be the players he would be working with in 2015 any beyond.

That's assigning a low value on experience in the present day, no? Still, possibly a fair point, but slightly besides the point for me - he had the choice, he didn't take it.

blimey! you're going to hold someone to something they said 4 years ago?

Someone has to maintain proper levels of logical consistency on this board


But seriously though, it was the most elegant way to ask him to reconsider his basic points. Of course we all change our opinions from time to time, but a concrete reminder of what we're changing them from makes sense in the context.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's assigning a low value on experience in the present day, no? Still, possibly a fair point, but slightly besides the point for me - he had the choice, he didn't take it.

I guess, but only relative to having experience when it "matters" in the RWC.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/cr...rce=Social&utm_medium=media&utm_campaign=2014

Croft and Day into the first team to cover for Wood and Parling.
Fearns and Gaskell into the saxons to cover them respectively.

Eastmond, Barritt and Farrell all being assessed for injuries, whilst Burrell has had a concussion.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No issues for me on Croft and Day - as close to like for like replacements as you can get.

Good to see Fearns in the Saxons, brilliant player. Some proper fire power in that backrow with him Ewers and Waldrom.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Look up, son.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Damn you, I edited as quick as I could but I'm on my phone

If Barritt and Burrell are out does that mean a 36/Eastmond combo?

 

[yaboyjj]

I guess, but only relative to having experience when it "matters" in the RWC.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/cr...rce=Social&utm_medium=media&utm_campaign=2014

Croft and Day into the first team to cover for Wood and Parling.
Fearns and Gaskell into the saxons to cover them respectively.

Eastmond, Barritt and Farrell all being assessed for injuries, whilst Burrell has had a concussion.

Can someone tell me what Croft has done to deserve a call into the senior set up?
It would all be so much easier if they all just admitted Robshaw was a 6 and called up Kvesic...
Apparently Farrell left the stadium on crutches, so it may be a lot worse that it looked when he came off- coupled with Mylers meh performance at the weekend, against all odds the stars seem to be aligning for Cipriani (still unlikely to be picked though).

Things are hangingly pretty perilously for Lanky actually, an injury to Attwood, Robshaw or Ford and he would be in a bit of a pickle (for the Wales game at least, assuming Wood, Parling, Farrell, Eastmond/Burrell are indeed ruled out).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Damn you, I edited as quick as I could but I'm on my phone

If Barritt and Burrell are out does that mean a 36/Eastmond combo?

Eastmond could be out as well.

Would go with if that happened.

36 and Joesph.

With maybe Daly being brought up.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Surely Slade should be called up ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Experience counts for a lot, especially in a relatively inexperienced side. He also offers excellent lineout work - better than Wood's, and Wood is often name dropped as on of our key lineout operators, so that won't hurt Croft's case.


Be interesting to see what would happen if Barritt and/or Burrell and/or Eastmond are ruled out - do they bring in Daly who has poor defence and increasingly looks like he loses his composure when the pressure is on? Do they fast track Burgess to an even more ridiculous extent?
To be honest, if they're promoting from the Saxons, I'd go for Devoto - I know he has dreams of playing 10, but he's so much better in the centres, and would offer an extra kicking and goal kicking option, is pretty big and is a good distributor. Can also cover 15 in an emergency. All that applies to Daly as well, with the added boost of the 10m+ extra kicking range, but I just don't trust Daly any more.

Edit: Forgot about Slade, doh! He'd definitely be my first choice call up. Been one of the best centres in the premiership this season.

 

[yaboyjj]

Eastmond could be out as well.

Would go with if that happened.

36 and Joesph.

With maybe Daly being brought up.

As much as 36 frustrates, we are somehow always drawn back to him. A 36/Joseph midfield seems ideal and very balanced- great distribution, some bulk, good defence and some speed. If only it were that simple.

Surely Slade should be called up ?

I think it is likely that he will play for the saxons but then join the senior squad if any of Eastmond/Burrell/Barritt don't pass as fit for the wales game early on. I can't help feeling that his switching between 10 and 13 is muddying the waters a bit and hindering his development, playing outside Burgess for the saxons would press his case better.

^I really hoped Daly would kick on this season, but he's been a bit disappointing really. I'm not sure Devoto played too well against Glasgow either, Lowe looks to be playing well again so should be next in line for the saxons... it's all speculation though until we hear more about the injuries

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Forgot about burgess.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm worried we are going to get another bumming at Cardiff... Why do we walk into these things with a huge list of injuries every time? Someone needs to look at this.

 

[Peat]

I'm worried we are going to get another bumming at Cardiff... Why do we walk into these things with a huge list of injuries every time? Someone needs to look at this.

The standard rate of attrition for any squad is 20-25pc of it out at any one time, and it falls right after the most intense club games of the season up to that point. Not surprising.

Wales aren't as good as they are, for my money, and our scrum is stronger. There's some distinct issues about how we're going to attack, but it seems unlikely we'd be so undone at the basics again. Famous last words!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Experience (Croft) didn't count for much last time we were in Wales! Its a real reason to have a guy like Easter in your 23 as he tends to show his experience.

Burgess would be mercilessly exploited by Wales. Too soon. He's still raw to the extent that he does stuff like re-tackle w player while they're both lying on the floor together!

If Burrell is concussed then a combination of barritt and Joseph seems like a no-brainer and a pretty satisfying compromise?

Also...Anthony Allen!

 

[TheSaffycen]

My predictions for the likely teams we will see
Wales
1.Jenkins 2.Hibbard 3.Lee 4.Ball 5.Wyn-Jones 6.Lydiate 7.Warburton 8.Faletau 9.Webb 10.Biggar 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Davies 14.Cuthbert 15.Halfpenny
16.Owens 17.James 18.R Jones 19.Chateris 20.Tipuric 21.Phillips 22.Anscombe 23.Williams
England
1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Kruis 6.Haskell 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola 9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.36? 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown
16.Youngs 17.Corbisiero 18.Cole 19.Kitchener 20.Clark 21.Youngs 22.Cipriani/Myler 23.Nowell

So in the set piece we have the stronger starting and bench scrum, line out as well. In defence im not sure really, if it was like the last 6 nations than yes I'm confident, Wales aren't shabby either. If we can get front foot ball and have Haskell and Vunipola run at the centres and take them up to let Joseph and Watson have space on the outside. In attack we seem to lack pace and creativity. Wales can be stopped if Roberts is stopped like last time, but Lawes isn't here this time so someone will have to stand up to the plate. Then it just comes down too individual talent, Joseph and May are both great talents but I fear the Welsh more if the game gets loose. We need to get on the board early and not concede stupid penalties like last year that kept them in the game. If I was to guess the score than I think we may win by 4 points.

 

[goodNumber10]

Burrell is on schedule to return to playing on Friday. He should be fine for the Wales game.

 

[j'nuh]

Since Webb burst through, they have a big advantage in the half-backs, and whereas I'm not normally keen on Roberts-Davies, apparently they are playing really well right now. I don't know who to compare them against for us, because I don't know who we will or should go with.

Our best area, the second row, has been destroyed by injury to the point that you fancy Wales having a fairly distinct upper edge there. Morgan and Launchbury are our two main star forwards, they are big losses.

If Lee doesn't recover from his injury in time, we should destroy their scrum; if he does recover, then it won't decide the match but we should still get the edge, hopefully. Our maul will be our biggest weapon imo, as I don't see how we'll suddenly get our backs moving.

But a lot of the Welsh players are hitting the right form at the right time (Lydiate is worrying me especially, he plays well and we'll spend a lot of the match behind the gain line, especially with our lack of carriers in the pack), and we still suffer from identity issues in selection and attack. The odds on England winning this match are also drifting at a lot of bookmakers too. I'm not optimistic at all.

 

[yaboyjj]

Experience (Croft) didn't count for much last time we were in Wales! Its a real reason to have a guy like Easter in your 23 as he tends to show his experience.

Burgess would be mercilessly exploited by Wales. Too soon. He's still raw to the extent that he does stuff like re-tackle w player while they're both lying on the floor together!

If Burrell is concussed then a combination of barritt and Joseph seems like a no-brainer and a pretty satisfying compromise?

Also...Anthony Allen!

I think Allen has been injured for some while?
I think that Croft is a nice accessory to have, making athletic line-out takes or stunning runs in the outside channels, but he is someone that is picked if you are sure the rest of the pack can put in a big enough shift to cover his weaknesses (ie. lack of breakdown work and carrying in the tight), right now this is the last kind of player England need, pretty much the anti-thesis of what is required in the 6 jersey.