[2015 Six Nations] England

[Maverick1987]

Ok so after a day or so to think about the squad I can't help but think we haven't gone anywhere under Lancaster for last 18 months or so . I was really impressed for the first 18 months but things just seem to have stalled and his selection policies don't help either . Constant picking of players like Goode who to everyone else just isn't international quality and Clarke who to be fair is a good player but is just taking a place that could be used for someone more deserving imo . What do you guys think ?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Couple of things really:

Firstly going back to Mako Vunipola I do think it's a good call because of the 'something' extra he has, as well as his young age for a prop - I guess my reflection is part of a wider thing about the consistency of Lancasters approach.

And I do get what Peat you're saying about there being certain routine improvement process young props have to go through and come out the other side and be better for it but I'm not entirely sure marler, Mullan and Vunipola are comparable. Marler has strengthed his technique and put on an extra bit of weight, and this combined with the experience was all he needed to be back at the top - the building blocks were all there. With Mullan, he's quite small for a prop and we know he's only there because of his pretty strong scrummaging. With Vunipola its a different story because he's in the squad only because he's such a physical monster - I'm aware there's a circularity here, in that its like saying 'Dan Carter is only the best 10 in the world because he's the best at all the things 10s need to do' - but the fact that is with Vunipola, taking away his carrying he is - even if his weakness is overexaggerated - not special in the key propping department of the scrum. I suppose my point is it seemed incongruous against Lancasters general policy of making his players the best at the basics rather than at the special additional stuff. More specifically, in getting the set-piece right rather than concentrating on flair players.

Referring to what Maverick is saying, I think its interesting because selcetion-wise with Cipriani and Easter there's somewhat of an inconsistency - he's set up these rules such as the type of player he wants and types of character he doesn't want in his squads. We know he wouldn't pick the likes of Delon for example. I guess it feels a bit like he's breaking that here.

BUT, I very much feel that this is the lesser of two evils; as you say Maverick, we're facing a situation where we potentially haven't moved forward recently and would perhaps continue to not move forward if something doesn't change, approach-wise. Therefore I will accept without further critique Lancasters apparent change in direction if it makes us a better side.

Re. Cipriani, when I saw the announcement I thought nothing of it because I imagine its purely gestural and Lancaster has no intention to play him. Thinking more about it, wouldn't he be a very good bench option to have, as someone said above, IN ADDITION TO Ford? He can play at Full-back after all as well as 10. I very much doubt Lancaster would go down that route but as a possibility it intrigues me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cipriani isn't an option at 15 - not played there in a long old time and was pretty rubbish when he did.

 

[Peat]

I think Lancaster got contract extension to something like 2018? So presumably he is likely to be there through 2019 RWC?

2020.

Which is nuts, as I don't think the RFU won't pull the trigger if he's not bringing home the goods. I've seen people suggest that he must have hidden performance clauses which allow him to be sacked if he's not doing it; I hope so, because elsewise this screams "Really expensive mistake".

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

https://audioboom.com/boos/2819758-rfu-podcast-january-22nd-2015

Podcast with Lancaster and Farrell about England. The host unfortunately talks as if someone has messed about with his voice on a pitch bender. JJ singled out for praise when discussing centres so could be good news.

 

[Willodell100]

Ok so after a day or so to think about the squad I can't help but think we haven't gone anywhere under Lancaster for last 18 months or so . I was really impressed for the first 18 months but things just seem to have stalled and his selection policies don't help either . Constant picking of players like Goode who to everyone else just isn't international quality and Clarke who to be fair is a good player but is just taking a place that could be used for someone more deserving imo . What do you guys think ?

I think Goode has deserved his spot over the past 12months.

Yes the Saracens style can seem a little boring at times but he has consistently performed well for them.

He might not have the dazzling pace everyone likes but he is not slow and has a real balanced running game. He's very good under the high ball and has great kicking ability due to starting out life as a 10. He also has probably the best 'rugby brain' in the squad. He also reads the game really well and identifies mismatches extremely well.

Regarding SL I understand your point as our autumn was not that good from an attacking point of view. I do think he is too influenced by Farrell with regards to England's style of play. AF brought the Saracens blitz style defence with him and it has been very effective. The downside to this success is that of the emphasis put on the importance of defensive capabilities which meant he has picked Brad Barritt ahead of other more attacking options. I'm not blaming Barritt as he only knows one way but I don't think he is good enough at the top level and certainly was a major reason why we struggled to score many tries in the autumn.

We have arguably the best pack in the world and they will continue to give us front foot ball so I don't see why we have to have conservatism written all over our midfield.

I hope SL picks an attacking back-line up against Wales. Something like this:

Care
May
Ford
Eastmond
Joseph
Nowell
Brown

The Bath combination works at club level and the only way we are going to find out if it works at international level is if we actually give them a run out.

Whatever combination SL goes with it will be another new combination so why not give the Bath pairing a go as the understanding will be there and therefore reducing the risk.

In reality I fear SL will take the conservative route (as it seems the norm with England head coaches) and pick a conservative midfield pairing in Barritt & Burrell (who at least is on form) or even worse Farrell & Barritt... I hope I am proven wrong!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I quote Lancaster in a recent interview:

"Selection will ultimately come down not to reputation or what people have done in the past, it's what they do every week for their clubs. That's how we select, on what we see."

What. A. Load. Of. Tripe.

More realistically would be, "We will select based on form....from my personal favourites".

 

[Maverick1987]

I think Goode has deserved his spot over the past 12months.

Yes the Saracens style can seem a little boring at times but he has consistently performed well for them.

He might not have the dazzling pace everyone likes but he is not slow and has a real balanced running game. He's very good under the high ball and has great kicking ability due to starting out life as a 10. He also has probably the best 'rugby brain' in the squad. He also reads the game really well and identifies mismatches extremely well.

Meh if you can tell me any time he performed even reasonably well then I'll be surprised . His Ashtonesque tackling is infuriating and THAT step ! Well it wouldn't fool a child never mind an international rugby player...

 

[ratsapprentice]

2020.

Which is nuts, as I don't think the RFU won't pull the trigger if he's not bringing home the goods. I've seen people suggest that he must have hidden performance clauses which allow him to be sacked if he's not doing it; I hope so, because elsewise this screams "Really expensive mistake".

Ian Ritchie explicitly said there were performance reviews every year, there's nothing secret about it.

I would be utterly gobsmacked if the coaching team is the same as it is now in 2016, let alone 2019 (unless we win the RWC, of course!).

 

[Patchey]

An interesting quote from Lancaster on Joseph: "His decision making, skill execution, pace, footwork and breakdown ability have all been top drawer and he deserves to be back"

Breakdown ability??

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

An interesting quote from Lancaster on Joseph: "His decision making, skill execution, pace, footwork and breakdown ability have all been top drawer and he deserves to be back"

Breakdown ability??

Probably means the few times he has got involved in the breakdown he has done well, or alternatively his ball presenting skills? Either way it sounds good for JJ although I still feel it will be "He is brilliant, one of the best, therefore we won't use him in favour of some average centres."

 

[Peat]

JJ is good over the ball. In 2011/12, back when he was first pushing really hard for England selection, he actually had the most turnovers in the Premiership (if you believe Brian Smith, time of season at which he said it is forgotten).

 

[Maverick1987]

Probably means the few times he has got involved in the breakdown he has done well, or alternatively his ball presenting skills? Either way it sounds good for JJ although I still feel it will be "He is brilliant, one of the best, therefore we won't use him in favour of some average centres."

Haha ! That would be funny if he said that in the press conference !

 

[TheSaffycen]

.

Hookers - agree with Peat, Lancaster has sold his own message out by picking Hartley. It would have been reasonable to have gone with Youngs and Webber, so there's not really an excuse here. My biggest problem with Youngs in the past has been his set piece. If this is okay now, then would be more than happy to see him in. Otherwise, it's a problem position. Jamie George. Been brilliant in defence and at the breakdown, also good at the set piece. Also Jack Yeandle has been a great performer.
Props - Don't agree with calls for Brookes; he's never going to get a game with the other two around, and he didn't get much involvement in the Autumn beyond a few minutes at the end of games. Lancaster clearly doesn't trust Brookes to be heavily involved. As for Mako, I don't think it is overstated how bad his scrummaging is. It is a liability at international level, and the scrum is our most important facet. He can't be allowed to start games, but I'm sympathetic to him coming on to try and change things if we can't dominate the scrum. Again we need ball carriers, Mako is a guy who can come on and change a game. Brookes is a hard one as he clearly isn't as good as Cole or Wilson so he might as well play in the Saxons. Then bring him into the main squad.
Locks - no arguments here.
Back row - Big bag of meh. Clark, no. Easter is reasonable but should be behind Waldrom and Evans at least for me. Kvesic has been incredibly hard done by. As has Ewers. Doesn't fill me with the right confidence that Lancaster fully has grips on what is going wrong in the pack; full of generalist players and no specialists. Easter probably wont be as effective as Ewers on the intl' stage. Ewers is a better tackler and will probably tie up more defenders than Easter. Though when he has gone up against Heaslip, Vunipola or really anyone, he has been the better player.
Scrummies - Perhaps Simpson should have been in there, but can understand their hesitance.
Fly-halves - Could have realistically gone into the tournament with just Ford and Farrell, the others won't be used.
Centres - Well, at least Joseph is involved.
Back three - Never have liked Goode and thought fullback was well covered with Nowell and Watson. Would have added an extra winger instead. Maybe one of the fly-halves will give way to Roko later down the line. Goode brings a different style of play, he would be effective in a 2nd reciever role but not a NFL running back.

 

[Peat]

Couple of things really:

Firstly going back to Mako Vunipola I do think it's a good call because of the 'something' extra he has, as well as his young age for a prop - I guess my reflection is part of a wider thing about the consistency of Lancasters approach.

And I do get what Peat you're saying about there being certain routine improvement process young props have to go through and come out the other side and be better for it but I'm not entirely sure marler, Mullan and Vunipola are comparable. Marler has strengthed his technique and put on an extra bit of weight, and this combined with the experience was all he needed to be back at the top - the building blocks were all there. With Mullan, he's quite small for a prop and we know he's only there because of his pretty strong scrummaging. With Vunipola its a different story because he's in the squad only because he's such a physical monster - I'm aware there's a circularity here, in that its like saying 'Dan Carter is only the best 10 in the world because he's the best at all the things 10s need to do' - but the fact that is with Vunipola, taking away his carrying he is - even if his weakness is overexaggerated - not special in the key propping department of the scrum. I suppose my point is it seemed incongruous against Lancasters general policy of making his players the best at the basics rather than at the special additional stuff. More specifically, in getting the set-piece right rather than concentrating on flair players.

I'm not saying they're the same players right now; I'm just saying its not unfeasible he'd make the same improvements.

And we've been picking tight five players for around the pitch impact over set-piece strength for a while now, imo. The contrast between our pack and our backs always strikes me as weird, in that respect.

 

[Every Time Ref]

An interesting quote from Lancaster on Joseph: "His decision making, skill execution, pace, footwork and breakdown ability have all been top drawer and he deserves to be back"

Breakdown ability??

No mention of defence...

 

[Willodell100]

No mention of defence...

Thank god. It is not the be all and end all. As long as he can tackle well and effectively which he can then give him the 13 shirt. Much more interested in his attacking game and particularly that outside break and step.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Elsewhere Farrel Snr mentioned they think JJ's defence is very much improved. After all I've heard, it would be REALLY weird for him to not feature in the 6N. They have been singling him out for praise.

 

[goodNumber10]

Elsewhere Farrel Snr mentioned they think JJ's defence is very much improved. After all I've heard, it would be REALLY weird for him to not feature in the 6N. They have been singling him out for praise.

it's more a case of the press have been singling him out and the england coaches have been answering their questions.

 

[Rich Taff]

I have to say I love the 'National' Press coverage of Englands tour of Northern Europe pre-six nations
The Mail in particular is really building up Cipriani pre-world cup (no doubt so they can later knock him down with dodgy photos etc)