[2015 Six Nations] England

[ratsapprentice]

We're hardly New Zealand when it comes to ball-handling in the forwards, are we?

Possibly would have said that about Bath's pack before they started doing it.

 

[goodNumber10]

Baths pack aren't doing it at international level though.

TBF lots of English clubs play that one off runner style, sarries for example use it a lot, but are also quite happy just carrying hard.

 

[Chistera]

I certainly don't follow English rugby as much as French rugby but having seen Bath's game against Toulouse on Sunday I'd probably go for a full-Bath 10-12-13-14 alignment of Ford, Eastmond, Joseph and Watson (even though he plays fullback at Bath). Complementarity and team chemistry often are the deciding factor in international rugby so I'd pick these players, even though they're on par with others in terms of individual skills and quality. Lancaster doesn't have the team to rebuild a whole midfield before the WC following recent injuries so that's a possibility he should seriously consider, he might just have his work cut out for him.
And Bath may have Burgess coming in their backline, he'd already be accustomed to playing with his teammates while playing in the English team.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That wasn't really my point.

In fact we have seen the England team do it, they did it in a couple of times in the first test in NZ to quite good effect.
Then they seemed to not do it at all in the AI's, unless I am misremembering.

 

[Peat]

C: have the hands for it.

Robshaw does, Launchbury maybe, I can't think of others. Actually Vunipola has good hands but I'm not expecting him to feature much. We're hardly New Zealand when it comes to ball-handling in the forwards, are we?

Marler has excellent hands but we very rarely see them at international level. I can think of some very slick pieces of handling from Lawes - Ashton's length of the pitch try, the nearly try against Wales that busted Halfpenny's shoulder. Hartley's decent enough, so too is Youngs.

They may not be NZ but I think they have good enough ball-handling skills. The trick is to get them into situations where it is natural and useful to do so.

 

[Every Time Ref]

TBF lots of English clubs play that one off runner style, sarries for example use it a lot, but are also quite happy just carrying hard.

A mix of the two is best to my mind. I'm a big believer in varying the point of attack, so carriers running off nine, running off ten of ten, one off runners, target man in the midfield, pick and goes ... a mix of possibilities is what stretches the narrow defence and helps break the gainline, even without necessarily having big ball carriers. England's problem is they only really use ball carriers off nine (only one of which is a notable carrier in any given XV) and occasional pick-and-goes - that's why in my opinion...

a full-Bath 10-12-13-14 alignment of Ford, Eastmond, Joseph and Watson

... would be the wrong selection for England, despite their strengths as a unit, because the pack is not capable of generating enough front-foot ball for them to use. England need a target man in the midfield.

And Bath may have Burgess coming in their backline, he'd already be accustomed to playing with his teammates while playing in the English team.

Mike Ford, the Bath head coach, has been very clear that he sees Burgess as a back row player. His games at twelve are a stop-gap to give him match experience and help learn the game from a more familiar position.

- - - Updated - - -

Marler has excellent hands but we very rarely see them at international level. I can think of some very slick pieces of handling from Lawes - Ashton's length of the pitch try, the nearly try against Wales that busted Halfpenny's shoulder. Hartley's decent enough, so too is Youngs.

They may not be NZ but I think they have good enough ball-handling skills. The trick is to get them into situations where it is natural and useful to do so.

That puts him one up on his brother then!

Actually I think you're right, I rescind my former comment, the skills are there and not being used. Thinking about it, there are quite a few England players who seem to have skills in their armoury for their clubs which are simply not used for England. Attwood and Wilson both carry more for Bath, for example, Ford's short passing game, Brown does actually seem to pass for Quins, May comes off his wing and attacks space for Gloucester ... it's quite worrying, when I think about it.

 

[TheSaffycen]

We played dreadfully against South Africa, we just gave a static player a pass and the Boks just smacked them backwards. I would like us to use our backrow like Wasps do, have two big guys- Ewers and Vunipola- with Robshaw in the lineout or distributing. You could even have Haskell in at 6 as he can be carrying outwide, with Vunipola close. Maybe if we have a couple of carrying players across the park, add in a Burrell or Roko coming off the wing, than we could put Eastmond and Joseph in. My team for the Wales game-
1.Corbs 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Kruis 6.Ewers 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola 9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Eastmond 13.Joseph 14.Roko 15.Brown
16.Webber 17.Marler 18.Cole 19.Kitchener 20.Haskell 21.Youngs 22.Farrell/Cipriani (whoever performs the best in training) 23.Watson

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Current talk from the media is that Lancaster is going to name four flyhalves in the squad for the Wales game, one of whom will be Cipriani.

He's naming his regular sized squad plus three extra players, with Danny being one. I imagine we'll see an extra backrow and maybe an extra prop, due to injuries etc. and then he'll cut back down after the first game or two of the 6N.

 

[Irishkid]

Apparently Easter is going to be in the squad which on form is fine but it goes against everything Lancastar has done.Also Foden is out for the season.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

it goes against everything Lancastar has done.

Agreed, it's very unlike Lancaster to pick based on form, and not who he's coached in the past/at Leeds.

 

[j'nuh]

Really the time for trying out more different options was the 6N's last year imo. This 6N's he needs to be playing as close to the starting 23 for the world cup as possible.

I say this a lot, but Tuilagi was our best player of the 2011 WC, even after playing his first game in a world cup warm-up, a month out from the WC.

Whilst there's a lot to be said for giving time for a team to gel, it's not inherently important to winning a WC. I seem to remember that even New Zealand messed around with their backline all the way through the 2011 WC.

The backline is in place, shifting a centre won't cause everything to topple, and there's a lot more to be said for a rusty Slade than a Twelvetrees that can blunder you a loss.

We've heard the excuse of "gelling time" so much, when do we actually get the opportunity to make a positive change?

 

[Maverick1987]

It's hard to argue against Joseph, he's been brilliant, but he won't play, nor will Eastmond even if they are named - England need to start getting over the gain line again and they are tackle line players not gain line players. Which is why BB and LB are the likeliest 12/13 combo.

I really disagree that Armitage should be included in either the 6nations or the World Cup squad, and Lancaster is right to leave him out - he knew the rules and left anyway, he can lump it for all i care - besides he's getting an absolute armchair ride at Toloun and he won't get that at international level.

For me the best set up for centre would be Eastmond/Burrell as Tuilagi can fit back in at 13 fairly seamlessly without disrupting everything if Lancaster wants to . I'm not too arsed who plays it of MT and LB if I'm honest . At least then we can play with a particular style that needn't be changed when we get injured players back .

Armitage would probably get an armchair ride in the 6N with England too tbh . There aren't many teams that can match us at the set piece in the world and we definitely have the best set piece in Europe

Anyway he won't get picked because he plays in France and I'm fine with that . A shame ... Yes. His place in the squad would be good but isn't necessary to succeed imo

My team for Wales would be

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Wilson
4.Parling
5.Attwood
6.Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola
9.Care/Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Eastmond
13.Burrell
14.Watson
15.Brown

Bench

16.Hartley
17.Corbs
18.Brookes
19.Kruis
20.Wood
21.Easter
22.Care/Youngs
23.Farrell

I'd go for a 6/2 split on the bench for the extra forward power towards the end of the game

Most players in our backline can play multiple positions with Farrell covering 12 ONLY in emergency

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We've heard the excuse of "gelling time" so much, when do we actually get the opportunity to make a positive change?

This. After the first year of Lancaster we had the "gelling time" argument used to keep bad players in place because you didn't want to mix things up during the 6N then you wanted to put out your best (ie current) for the AI then the next 6N they deserve another shot, we don't want to mess about in the AI against these big opposition. Before you know it, we have completed the world cup cycle and trying to sort stuff out that we should have been doing 2 years ago.

 

[Irishkid]

For me the best set up for centre would be Eastmond/Burrell as Tuilagi can fit back in at 13 fairly seamlessly without disrupting everything if Lancaster wants to . I'm not too arsed who plays it of MT and LB if I'm honest . At least then we can play with a particular style that needn't be changed when we get injured players back .

Armitage would probably get an armchair ride in the 6N with England too tbh . There aren't many teams that can match us at the set piece in the world and we definitely have the best set piece in Europe

Anyway he won't get picked because he plays in France and I'm fine with that . A shame ... Yes. His place in the squad would be good but isn't necessary to succeed imo

My team for Wales would be

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Wilson
4.Parling
5.Attwood
6.Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola
9.Care/Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Eastmond
13.Burrell
14.Watson
15.Brown

Bench

16.Hartley
17.Corbs
18.Brookes
19.Kruis
20.Wood
21.Easter
22.Care/Youngs
23.Farrell

I'd go for a 6/2 split on the bench for the extra forward power towards the end of the game

Most players in our backline can play multiple positions with Farrell covering 12 ONLY in emergency

What happens if a member of the back three goes down injured.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Youngs to the wing it worked before for England

 

[Irishkid]

Him against North would be a massacre.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Him against North would be a massacre.

I wasn't being serious.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Danny might have edged it in as someone who can cover FB in the squad now that Foden is out.

 

[Peat]

Our backline is a gelled unit?

Really?

Our presumed first choice fly-half has 6 caps. We don't really have a presumed first choice 12 at the moment. That's two of the key decision makers either very raw or mostly unknown.

Ford has played under 10 games with Care at a guess. He has played... 40 maybe? With Youngs. He has never played with Dickson.

He has played no games with Barritt at 12, no games with Burrell at 12, 40 at most with Twelvetrees. He is genuinely familiar with Eastmond, but the size issue means we probably won't see that.

He's played a bit with our presumed 13 - but who's played with him? Barritt's played with him maybe 20 times. Burrell, 40 minutes. Eastmond, twice. Twelvetrees... probably a bit.

He's played very few games with any of the back 3 other than Watson and Rokoduguni (not in the squad).

It is, in fact, genuinely likely that you could field an England backline in which George Ford has played less games with all of the other players than Conrad Smith has played with Ma'a Nonu alone. Actually, it's quite possible we could field a backline which has less caps than Conrad Smith.

We are genuinely likely to line up for the 6N with no club partnerships; with a three-quarter line with about 50 caps aggregate if we're lucky; and a winger and a full-back who don't seem to speak the same language.

I'm not sure me and j'nuh speak the whole language either. I'd agree that shifting a centre won't cause everything to topple, but that's only because there's nothing to topple. There's nothing to lose from chucking in a talented player from outside the squad and hope he makes a freaklike impact (see Tuilagi) except we've been trying that for the last ten years and it's got us f**king nowhere. Try 'em, chuck 'em, try again, wonder why we never develop any talent.

 

[Tony Manx]

Bbc teletext saying Cips and Easter to be included in 6N squad.