[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: France vs England (22/08/2015)

[goodNumber10]

I suspect you may need to work on your reading and comprehension. I did not say take the France game away. I said in the original post that they needed to embrace the approach that was utilized in the final 6 Nations game. I also did not post to state the obvious, that NZ and SA are better. I came here to say what I said: that England will not compete with the Southern Hemisphere playing Euro-slow rugby. Until England opens up the game they will always be right where they are.

I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is everything points to the opposite.

New zealand have lost three times in the last World Cup Cycle, on each occasion the team that beat them scored three tries, not 5. The teams that beat New Zealand didn't do it playing wild running Rugby but instead by slowing the game with excellent tractical kicking, brutalising them upfront and massive defence..

England have beaten Australia twice in the last World Cup cycle, 2013 (two tries), 2014 (one try).

When Wales beat South Africa they did so 3 penalties to 2.


So really everything points in the opposite direction, to beat the SH teams you don't play SH rugby, you actually suffocate them.

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I wonder what the papers are saying this morning...
The bottom line is, it's a new day, that was a warm up game where Lancaster was experimenting, and it was an 'away' game as well, never easy.
The All Blacks had one that got away by 8 points in Sydney, it has stood them in good stead.
A loss before a RWC is only going to focus the team.

Be nice to see Cips actually get some time on the field in the shirt numbered 10.

I'm struggling to get too upset about it, as it's a warm up game, i think the key now is how we play against ireland it must be about performance I think we'll lose which is less than ideal but we must get a good cohesive performance out of the side.

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If you wanted to make the form team for the Ireland game I think you'd have to go with this....

It's not what Lancaster will do but then after our game plan last night I say sack the coaches.

1.vuinipola - we need his carrying
2. George for the line out
3. Cole - solid and top notch
4. Atwood - lauchbeery is not on form
5. Laws - good around the park
6. Binny
7. Tom wood
8. Morgan

I'd actually drop robshaw, no one has seemed to mention how slow and usless he looked. We need a decent back row and it's hard to make one with robshaw in it.

9. Youngs - he should come good
10. Cipriani form 10
11. Watson enough said
12. Burgess for gain line ball
13. JJ
14 nowell our best winger
15 brown regaining form

I can't be fairer but it will never happen.

I wrote this last December:

http://www.thedeadballarea.com/england-2014-englands-ball-carriers/

So below is a team i'd quite like to see take the field at some point in this years 6 Nations.

01: Marler 02: Youngs 03: Cole 04: Lawes 05: Attwood 06: Vunipola 07: Wood 08: Morgan 09: Care 10: Ford 11: May 12: Burrell 13: Tuilagi 14: Rokoduguni 15: Nowell

 

[The Jones Boy]

I don't agree with either of you completely. Both arguments have merit but they have the most value where they overlap on the venn diagram.
There is no doubt that defence and slowing the game down are critical to halting the oppositions advance on the scoreboard, however it needs to be married to an ability to score quickly when the all too brief opportunities present themselves.
I genuinely believe that when England are going forward, under Lancaster anyway, they can and often do score quickly.
Judgement should be reserved for the RWC performances of all countries .
In the cauldron of the competition, where tension levels are ratcheted up, attacking fluidity is often stifled and defensive teams are rewarded more effectively than open attractive attacking styles.
The All Blacks took a long time to learn this and hopefully the lesson isn't forgotten.
England generally speaking have an excellent defensive character. They have a wealth of talent and they have home advantage.
The Poms are in great shape for the RWC.
Last nights performance will only focus their resolve.

 

[ncurd]

Yup overall I'm glad last night happened a so so performance against France where we won would of papered over the cracks. Next two weeks has to all be about technique training lineout and breakdown being main area of focus.

Agreed with Woodwards comments after the match announce the squad now, drop the players who you aren't taking, put the world cup blinders on, worry less about fitness now and about how we are going to execute our plans.

 

[chippieolamus]

Australia 24-18-1 all time against England. World Cups: Australia 2 England 1; Southern Hemisphere 6 Europe 1.

Why would all time records be at all relevant? The last 2 times we've played Australia we've beaten them, by 7 points and by 10 points. So you just can't say that we're unable to beat SH teams.

 

[Maverick1987]

Australia 24-18-1 all time against England. World Cups: Australia 2 England 1; Southern Hemisphere 6 Europe 1.

In fairness though every World Cup final other than 95 has been contested by a NH team and a SH team . Mostly won by just a couple of points . You also need to bear in mind that during the vast majority of the World Cup cycles Wales were absolutely tripe as a pose to where they have been for the last 8 years or so . The NH is a far more dangerous beast now especially if tonight is how France have decided to play from now on

 

[Mcfadden]

Finals footy is a lot different to regular international windows. And besides Shon, those criticisms are from a decade ago and are getting a little boring now. The north, generally speaking, have caught up quite considerably. Maybe not playing at the exact frenetic pace of the SH, but a lot of ground has been covered and we are seeing scorelines that aren't total blow outs.

 

[Tony Manx]

Good evening from HK where I am soooo glad that I did not stay up until 03.00 to watch an average French side smash a very poor English team.... Unless the BBC in their usual left wing biased state doctored them!!

Things i learnt in no particular order:

Blanco is getting bigger and bigger

Vunipola has to give way to Morgan

The vaunted English scrum will be smashed by the Aussies

......and bigger

Atwood was far better than Launchbury and Lawes combined

We do not have a hooker who can throw

England do not travel

......and bigger

Cips for England although he could be criticized for taking his try and not passing

Burrell is not International standard

Lancaster has much to do......filling in his CV!!

Piper had a good game and was not at fault with any decision except where he thought an English player kicked the ball out of Cares hands!

Now I will read the thread to see how wrong I am!'

Blanco has now exploded!!

 

[Wendigo7]

I think on reflection I wouldn't read too much into the game.

It was a very, very poor night. What they need to do is tone down the gym work, ease off, do the basics in training and prepare for Ireland. Be hard on themselves.

I'd look at playing the same team again, changing Wood for Haskell, Morgan for Billy, Burgess for Burrell and maybe Goode for Brown. We act well with a 3rd playmaker, we need the team to gel and calm down

 

[Tony Manx]

I'm being genuine, as well.
While there are younger players with (potentially) a higher ceiling than Maggie, he's so experienced you could drop him into the starting XV vs Ireland and he'd perform.
Kind of like Easter - the elder statesman.


I would genuinely consider putting him and one of Binny/Benny in the same backrow vs Uruguay, just to see what happens.

He was a genuine class act that stood out like a lighthouse amongst the flotsam that was the Biarritz team of so called stars. Even when matches were hopeless, he genuinely tried unlike people like Harry Ordinary!!

His injury and that to his brother were grievous blows to BO in their hour of desperation!!

Magnus for England!!

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I think on reflection I wouldn't read too much into the game.

It was a very, very poor night. What they need to do is tone down the gym work, ease off, do the basics in training and prepare for Ireland. Be hard on themselves.

I'd look at playing the same team again, changing Wood for Haskell, Morgan for Billy, Burgess for Burrell and maybe Goode for Brown. We act well with a 3rd playmaker, we need the team to gel and calm down

I'd also much prefer to see Wigglesworth start instead of Youngs. There were times last night where we just needed to control the game. Getting the ball off the park or atleast giving us a chance we the kick and chase. To me, he's one of the most underrated guys in the squad. Does the basic well and rarely has a shocker. In the WC, a SH having a poor game can quickly lead to an early exit.

 

[austingtir]

Why would all time records be at all relevant? The last 2 times we've played Australia we've beaten them, by 7 points and by 10 points. So you just can't say that we're unable to beat SH teams.

Australia has been very average for a bloody long time until this year imo. Even this year when they've won something they've been far from perfect.

They have changed their game to be far more forward orientated since Cheika took over. No matter what anyone in this thread says you lot have got to be worried about that.

The fact is if they play how they are capable they should not have much issue at all getting out of that pool.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm struggling to get too upset about it, as it's a warm up game, i think the key now is how we play against ireland it must be about performance I think we'll lose which is less than ideal but we must get a good cohesive performance out of the side.

You're not worried about the second worst performance England have had under Lancaster, bringing up worries that we didn't know we had? Especially since it was essentially a first team we played, and we are only a month away from the World Cup?

Biggest worries:
For a long time we've talked of the set piece as a strength, and we've just seen our first choice front 5 comfortably beaten in both scrum and lineout.
Our breakdown play under Lancaster has generally been uncompetitive, but last night's performance takes us back to the Wales game.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Honestly what have you been smoking.

He's a liability. A complete penalty machine. Granted there a few alternatives but he certainly hasn't een the 'stand out performer' you claim he has.

 

[TommiG88]

If you wanted to make the form team for the Ireland game I think you'd have to go with this....

It's not what Lancaster will do but then after our game plan last night I say sack the coaches.

1.vuinipola - we need his carrying
2. George for the line out
3. Cole - solid and top notch
4. Atwood - lauchbeery is not on form
5. Laws - good around the park
6. Binny
7. Tom wood
8. Morgan

I'd actually drop robshaw, no one has seemed to mention how slow and usless he looked. We need a decent back row and it's hard to make one with robshaw in it.

9. Youngs - he should come good
10. Cipriani form 10
11. Watson enough said
12. Burgess for gain line ball
13. JJ
14 nowell our best winger
15 brown regaining form

I can't be fairer but it will never happen.

Like that team, won't happen though.

 

[goodNumber10]

You're not worried about the second worst performance England have had under Lancaster, bringing up worries that we didn't know we had? Especially since it was essentially a first team we played, and we are only a month away from the World Cup?

Biggest worries:
For a long time we've talked of the set piece as a strength, and we've just seen our first choice front 5 comfortably beaten in both scrum and lineout.
Our breakdown play under Lancaster has generally been uncompetitive, but last night's performance takes us back to the Wales game.

Upset & worried are two different things. i felt we were underpowerd, and i think there are a few changes will help (i've said them above so won't repeat). I think there were issue at the breakdown and issues in the back three (May and Brown cannot be in the same back three).

One thing i would say is that our fitness levels were off the scale... the french may have been training hard in the alps but we were still accelerating at the end and the french were clinging on for dear life.

We have two weeks till ireland, then a couple leading into the world cup - the guys need a week off imho, but i think month is plenty of time to nail the details.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Upset & worried are two different things. i felt we were underpowerd, and i think there are a few changes will help (i've said them above so won't repeat). I think there were issue at the breakdown and issues in the back three (May and Brown cannot be in the same back three).

One thing i would say is that our fitness levels were off the scale... the french may have been training hard in the alps but we were still accelerating at the end and the french were clinging on for dear life.

We have two weeks till ireland, then a couple leading into the world cup - the guys need a week off imho, but i think month is plenty of time to nail the details.

I'm not sure it's enough time to fix our scrum. The lineout will improve massively if (and a massive if) wecan throw straight and get the calls sorted. The scrum surely in't going to dramatically improve in just a few weeks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not sure it's enough time to fix our scrum. The lineout will improve massively if (and a massive if) wecan throw straight and get the calls sorted. The scrum surely in't going to dramatically improve in just a few weeks.

Why not?
Our scrum has been great all year - one bad game on a terrible surface doesn't mean the end of the world.

Even just starting Attwood would've made a big impact (and is something I'd do going forwards into the rwc).

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm not sure it's enough time to fix our scrum. The lineout will improve massively if (and a massive if) wecan throw straight and get the calls sorted. The scrum surely in't going to dramatically improve in just a few weeks.

really? rowntree turned the lions scrum around in the space of a week.

nd also lets not underestimate how poor that surface was, must be like trying to scrummage on ice.

 

[j'nuh]

To be fair, even when things were going horribly for France, their scrum was never that bad. It would surprise me if we had to play a better scrum thoughout the WC.

Still, it's something that needs a lot of work on...

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Why not?
Our scrum has been great all year - one bad game on a terrible surface doesn't mean the end of the world.

Even just starting Attwood would've made a big impact (and is something I'd do going forwards into the rwc).

It was a poor surface for both teams but France still dominated. Yeah Attwood would be a start, but it just seems like the pack have taken 3 steps back as collective unit. I think the intensity come the WC will be much higher. And Stu obvs will change tactics depending on who we're playing i.e. put more men into breakdown vs Aus.

I thought we would atleast hold our own up front but it was an innihilation in all facets. Breakdown, set peiece. The mall hasnt got going whatsoever. In the 6n that was a weapon. No other word to describe it.