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[2014 Super Rugby] South African conference

Habana is arguably the best winger in world rugby .major loss. Jo pietersen is a useful full back,excellent goal kicker and good squad member.major loss.Becker is one if the best locks in South Africa. Major loss.Impact will be felt. Elton janties was very poor for you.

I actually agree with all of this.

That being said, a wing is more easily replaced than a key loose forward or midfielder. Bekker is arguably their biggest loss, though the South Africans seem to spit out world class locks every year or two ;)

To some extent I agree; I mean of course losing SA's best winger and a very reliable goal kicker on top of the tallest guy in SR is going to hurt BUT like Invictus said a winger only counts for so much as opposed to key positions where I feel we are better off than we have been for the last 3 years. So to argue that we are in a better spot now (assuming fitness here which we have a problem with every year);

2 Scarra Ntubeni is not as much of a handful as Deon Fourie in the loose but can actually scrum and put the ball in straight and high whereas Fourie went either skew or so low that our line-out was a lottery with him at hooker. Tiaan Liebenberg on the other hand was good at his core functions but tended to get turned over ball in hand and get involved in too much off the ball stuff. So all in all I think the improvement we've seen from the WP front row with the young guys in Ntubeni and Malherbe will carry over for the Stormers.

3 Frans Malherbe (injured almost all of last year) is a big young lad and is growing as class TH seemingly every game he plays. The new scrum engagement sequence suits him very well indeed. Our scrum is now a strong point (relatively speaking to most scrums in the comp) as opposed to a place where we only hope for parity. That said we aren't gonna push the better scrums around yet but should at least get quality ball most of the time and be able to put them under a bit of pressure on their ball. Seein g as the combo of Kitshoof, Ntubeni and Malherbe are 21, 22 and 22... well, if they can keep improving and if we can add another strong scrumming lock.

Bekker is a loss sadly and has been a consistent performer in SR but what we lost in Bekker we gain in Etzebeth is how I try to see it. Pity the two couldn't really play together.

6 (our 'open-side')Our backrow now has better balance with the inclusion/conversion of Deon Fourie to a true open-side fetcher. Vermeulen adds to our presence at the breakdown while Fourie and Kolisi have the pace and athleticism to balance Vermeulen's donkey work though I have to give it to Vermeulen he has started to add to his game in the lose and has developed quite a knack for breaking the line in the mid field with an effective if clumsy-ish off load. Than we have Schalk Burger on the bench making his come-back from near-death literally.

9/10 Our halves won't make any tier 1 test sides (even benches I'd imagine) but in the young combo of Louis Schreuder and Demetri Catrakilis we have an improved set of halves IMO even though in the Currie Cup final they fared miserably and fell off the pace they set during the regular season. TBF Catrakilis got put under immense pressure from Schreuder having an off day and our pack being beaten back by a Springbok laden and hungry Sharks pack. Hopefully they can build on the good and forget the bad. The big concern here is our kicking game. Catrakilis has the same major weakness Peter Grant has and that is a true lack of distance and sides like the Sharks and Crusaders who match and even better our forward packs can simply camp in our 22 and feed off the opportunities. We tend to not give many opportunities away but if we can't get out of our own 22 then we won't have any ourselves so..

Centers. Damian de Allende is an exciting young center at 21. Strong and celver running and the perfect foil for JdV. My worry here is that AC has tended to play JdV at 13 and De Allende at 12 which boggles my mind as JdV has been in the form of his life at 12 and De Allende IMO is better suited to 13 in any case. I assume/hope this sorts itself out over the length of the season. While we've missed Jaque Fourie De Allende is a better option than we've had for the last 2 years and with JdV in fine form I say we are way better off.

Back three we won't miss Habana, Van den Heever or Pietersen IMO. I don't mean to sound dismissive but Van den Heever has just not impressed since leaving the Bulls and not having space. He is a fine runner but does not suit WP?Stormers and is not as good a footballer as a pure sprinter. Pietersen you can trust at goal kicking but he has no distance on his kicks which we need desperately with our 10 having the same issue. His lack of size means he gets truned over more often than not in tight games. Catrakilis has his faults but goal kicking is not one. Jaco Taute at 15 if for nothing else (he is solid on defence and has some pace for a FB) has a booming boot. I'd play him at 15 for that alone. Sadly he is still out injured but should be back in action next year some time. I still feel we need one gigantor wing to balance the size we have given away over the last few years in Joe Pietersen, Gio Aplon, Brian Habana and now even smaller Cheslin Kolbe (68kgs!!!). Between Aplon and Kolbe space will be exploited but I fear for those tight matches where there isn't space and where every meter these guys get driven back and every ball they lose in contact means more pressure and we have shown little aptitude for chasing down games we fall behind in. We've had this problem a while though so even though its a problem its not a new one. If Taute gets back I'd actually say we've gone up a tiny notch (even if purely tactically/positionally because of his distance in kick returns).


I don't see us lifting the cup but I think we'll put in a good challenge for a play-off spot and even though anything can happen on the day I think we have a few weaknesses still and this squad is still very young with the 1st choice starting XV having a ton of guys aged 20/21/22; Kitshoff, Ntubeni, Melherbe, Etzebeth, Kolisi, De Allende, Taute and Kolbe while Screuder and Catrakilis are only 23 and 24.. so maybe with another year or two of experience and clever signings (.. and some depth to our game plan which has become dumbed down under AC IMO) we can make another hard psuh.
 
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I think you are right in that these guys will leak many tries but they'll score a ton as well; absolutely huge pack of forwards -strangely maybe a tad light in the front row though? at least relative to what you have in the 2nd and backrow- and pacy pacy backs to exploit Pollard's long flat passes.

I almost want to say you should drop a few of those big backrowers in preference of someone who is maybe a little lighter but more dynamic and won't get the 'run-around' on defense close to the break down areas. You are going to miss CJ Stander IMO. Arno Botha is the only backrower I would welcome at the Stormers to put my comment into perspective. What happened to Jean Cooke? I would have thought him and Botha were your best backrowers and then I would have scoured the earth for a quality open-side; Marnus Schoeman from the Griquas should fit and would jump at the chance now that the Griquas have been relegated I'd assume.

No Morne Mellett? I like MvdM though. I've had my eye on him for a while now and hope this is his break-out year.

So there is truth to the rumor that Matfield will make a return as a player/coach? It might do wonders for you guys as leadership has been a big issue lately and all he needs to do is be half as effective in the line-out as he was. He might be another liability on defence though on top of Spies.. Add the fact that Paul Willemse is almost too big to defend in the open type of pacy, open games the bulls end up playing and the fact that the other backrowers will almost all be purely ball carriers and you have a serious problem, particularly if you keep kicking the ball to the opposition.

In Serfontein and the others you have quality centers but young and with Pollard inside also so young that could become a factor.

The back three are speedy but have the same problem as we do in WP; too small to count in close games. Basson, Blommetjies, Ismael, Visser... fast but not big enough o make an impact or elusive enough to go 'the alternative route'. A lot depends on the form of Hougaard as the senior operator in the backline but IMO you need someone more involved as Hougaard will be operating on the fringes.

**** it. The Bulls should accept that this will be their true 'development year' as last year they still had some form of experience (Olivier, Steyn, Spies, Kirchner, Vermaak, Kruger, Potgieter) even with the star quality stripped (Botha, Matfield, FdP).
 
The depth of the squad looks questionable, but that's only because I haven't seen much of the non first line players.

It definitely looks like a rebuilding phase to me, especially with a couple of inexperienced fly halves.
 
^ I don't think the depth is as much a problem as the general inexperience; ITO lack of continuity and lack and proven world class players; this squad shouts "potential" but doesn't have much of a framework for that to be built around.
 
Jo pietersen is a useful full back,excellent goal kicker and good squad member.major loss.

That is good to hear because he has not been at all good for us since he joined and in particular he would appear to have no idea how or wish to tackle and I am more than pleased when they stuff him on the wing!

He is has had a number of off days in catching he high ball, is a useful but not great runner and his kicking stats must be about 50:50 with only four goals....mind you he only got the kicking duties on the rare occasions when Yachvilli is not on the field and would now be fourth choice after Perylongue and Waenga and maybe even Baby!

This might all have something to do with the poor play of the team but not his attitude to tackling!

How was he when tackling the big South Africans?
 
I think you are right in that these guys will leak many tries but they'll score a ton as well; absolutely huge pack of forwards -strangely maybe a tad light in the front row though? at least relative to what you have in the 2nd and backrow- and pacy pacy backs to exploit Pollard's long flat passes.

I almost want to say you should drop a few of those big backrowers in preference of someone who is maybe a little lighter but more dynamic and won't get the 'run-around' on defense close to the break down areas. You are going to miss CJ Stander IMO. Arno Botha is the only backrower I would welcome at the Stormers to put my comment into perspective. What happened to Jean Cooke? I would have thought him and Botha were your best backrowers and then I would have scoured the earth for a quality open-side; Marnus Schoeman from the Griquas should fit and would jump at the chance now that the Griquas have been relegated I'd assume.

No Morne Mellett? I like MvdM though. I've had my eye on him for a while now and hope this is his break-out year.

So there is truth to the rumor that Matfield will make a return as a player/coach? It might do wonders for you guys as leadership has been a big issue lately and all he needs to do is be half as effective in the line-out as he was. He might be another liability on defence though on top of Spies.. Add the fact that Paul Willemse is almost too big to defend in the open type of pacy, open games the bulls end up playing and the fact that the other backrowers will almost all be purely ball carriers and you have a serious problem, particularly if you keep kicking the ball to the opposition.

In Serfontein and the others you have quality centers but young and with Pollard inside also so young that could become a factor.

The back three are speedy but have the same problem as we do in WP; too small to count in close games. Basson, Blommetjies, Ismael, Visser... fast but not big enough o make an impact or elusive enough to go 'the alternative route'. A lot depends on the form of Hougaard as the senior operator in the backline but IMO you need someone more involved as Hougaard will be operating on the fringes.

**** it. The Bulls should accept that this will be their true 'development year' as last year they still had some form of experience (Olivier, Steyn, Spies, Kirchner, Vermaak, Kruger, Potgieter) even with the star quality stripped (Botha, Matfield, FdP).

Jean Cook is going with his buddy Francois Venter to the Cheetahs.

Morne Mellett has a neck injury (kinda the same as what Marcell had) and it is unclear if he will be available. But I hope he is, as I don't want thug Greyling playing anymore. and with Mellett and van Der Merwe as our props, not many teams will move us around at scrum time.

Here is my view on the team.
first off the negatives:
1. Hooker is all of a sudden a big concern. Mbonambi and Maku are poor lineout throwers and not very skillful with ball in hand. Callie is our best option IMHO, and his little brother has the potential to be much better than him.
2. Apart from Deon Stegmann, we don't have a fetcher.
3. Back 3 - So much pace, but a bit one dimensional, apart from clayton blommetjies. I predict the barrage of Up and Unders will as usual be implemented.

Now the positives.
1. what we lose in weight in our props, we make up in our locks and back row. We will have a mobile, but heavy pack no doubt.
3. The new scrum laws will definitely suit our playing style. and I predict that Pierre Spies will become a menace to other teams like in the past. With our scrummagers wheeling the scrums to our advantage, not many other backrowers will be as quick off the mark as Spies.
4. the 9. 10. 12. 13. combo - Piet/Hougie - Pollard - Serfontein - JJ Engelbrecht combo. I think this could be a future bok backline, and man they are potent!!

I thought our development year was this year, and many of us, even me, wrote off the Bulls as non-contenders for the ***le. But they surprized us all, winning in NZ and drawing in Oz. and then winning the SA conference, and making it all the way to the Semis.

I can't help but think that Frans Ludeke has something up his sleeve, and the unknown is killing me. And the teams will only start this week with possible signings... So it could be the start of great things.

One guy you guys should look out for is Travis Ismaiel. A very big and fast winger. 1.91m tall, and weighing in at 96kg's, this guy could become a new wrecking ball out on the wings...
 
That is good to hear because he has not been at all good for us since he joined and in particular he would appear to have no idea how or wish to tackle and I am more than pleased when they stuff him on the wing!

He is has had a number of off days in catching he high ball, is a useful but not great runner and his kicking stats must be about 50:50 with only four goals....mind you he only got the kicking duties on the rare occasions when Yachvilli is not on the field and would now be fourth choice after Perylongue and Waenga and maybe even Baby!

This might all have something to do with the poor play of the team but not his attitude to tackling!

How was he when tackling the big South Africans?

Sad to hear that. I didn't rate him as one of our better players but at least he had an excellent ratio at goal kicks; above 90% which was the main reason for his inclusion here.

As for his defence he would never tackle someone back LOL but at least he was courageous IMO and the times he didn't bring a big fellow down at least he slowed them down enough for the support to come in. So I'd have said his defence was good for a guy his size and he was rarely caught out of position. That said we pride ourselves on defence at the Stormers and the fact that the team does so well makes it easier for individuals to up their game in that department.
 
Bulls could have a great team yeah, but I think the balance of the forward pack is a bit off and there is a general lack of experience. But like you said, they could get it right with a tweak here or a good signing there and if they gel they could well surprise again like last year where everyone- myself included- were unbelievers.

What would your starting XV look like? If I had a look through I'd have Van Zyl starting ahead of Hougie and would be tempted to have one of Hougaard or Engelbrecht on the wing with Small-Smith partnering Serfontein; I just think WSS has more 'game' to complement Serfontein's hard running while Engelbrecht is a pure finisher IMO... on 2nd thought with the pace game the Bulls play and Pollard's long passing game (and I'm assuming he'll be throwing those long flat ones often as I'd assume those huge forwards will make easy enough meters ball in hand) a big pacey finisher like Engelbrecht at 13 is not a bad way to go.

On Venter and Cooke I am glad to hear the Cheetahs should probably pick up where they left off last year at your loss.

Brussow, Labuschagne, Cooke and Van der Walt are a handy and exciting set of loosies.. Venter has big shoes to fill though with Ebersohn probably the pick of the SA 12's in SR last year.
 
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Bulls could have a great team yeah, but I think the balance of the forward pack is a bit off and there is a general lack of experience. But like you said, they could get it right with a tweak here or a good signing there and if they gel they could well surprise again like last year where everyone- myself included- were unbelievers.

What would your starting XV look like? If I had a look through I'd have Van Zyl starting ahead of Hougie and would be tempted to have one of Hougaard or Engelbrecht on the wing with Small-Smith partnering Serfontein; I just think WSS has more 'game' to complement Serfontein's hard running while Engelbrecht is a pure finisher IMO... on 2nd thought with the pace game the Bulls play and Pollard's long passing game (and I'm assuming he'll be throwing those long flat ones often as I'd assume those huge forwards will make easy enough meters ball in hand) a big pacey finisher like Engelbrecht at 13 is not a bad way to go.

On Venter and Cooke I am glad to hear the Cheetahs should probably pick up where they left off last year at your loss.

Brussow, Labuschagne, Cooke and Van der Walt are a handy and exciting set of loosies.. Venter has big shoes to fill though with Ebersohn probably the pick of the SA 12's in SR last year.

Well Based on what we have, my 22 will look something like this:

1. Marcel Van Der Merwe (if Mellett is fit, then Mellett will be my 1 and Marcel move to 3).
2. Callie Visagie
3. Werner Kruger
4. Paul Willemse
5. Flip van der Merwe
6. Deon Stegman
7. Arno Botha
8. Pierre Spies

9. Francois Hougaard
10. Handre Pollard
11. Bjorn Basson
12. Jan Serfontein
13. JJ Engelbrecht
14. Travis Ismaiel
15. Clayton Blommetjies

16. Bongi Mbonambi
17. Frik Kirsten
18. Andrew Beerwinkel
19. Jacques Du Plessis
20. Jacques Engelbrecht
21. Piet van Zyl
22. Louis Fouche
23. Jurgen Visser

If I was Ludeke, I'd focus on getting a hooker and another fetcher.

I'm still a believer that Hougie could be a great scrumhalf. But I know this year has been rough for him, especially with the whole Reeva Steenkamp thing. I don't know how big his involvement will be in the trial, but it could lead to him missing some games...

As for JJ. I think you are a bit harsh on the guy. And I will give him the benefit of the doubt at 13. As for WSS, I like him a lot! but he was out for nearly the entire season, and only came back when all the other guys were fatigued. He and JJ will have a good rivalry going. But JJ's pace is the swing vote for me.
 
[2014 Super Rugby] Cheetahs & Lions

I thought to re-unite the Cats in this thread as they don't have a lot of support on this forum and I see them as 4rth and 5th place finishers in the SA conference despite their play-off place last year. The Lions, sadly, would do well to avoid the wooden spoon IMO. But enough of my pessimism. Lets look at the positives for these teams;

The Cheetahs actually have some continuity for a 2nd year running! They lose three quality players in Piet van Zyl (Bulls), Rob Ebersohn (Montpellier, France)- arguably the pick of the 12's in the competition last year- and new Bok tight head Lourens Adriaanse (Sharks) but importantly they have already signed two direct replacements for these players in promising young Bulls 12 Francois Venter and another Bok prop in Wian du Preez who has returned to the franchise from Munster in Ireland. Key player flyhalf Johan Goosen is also returning from a long injury lay-off and is traveling with the Springbokke this Novemeber. Scrumhalf Piet van Zyl's loss should be off-set by Sarel Pretorius staying in Bloemfontein but the Cheetah's depth in quality remains a concern despite having a very competitive starting XV. Other news regarding signings are the signature of up-coming Bulls flanker Jean Cooke to bolster the loose forward stocks. Heinrich Brussow is expected back from Japan. The only other potential worry for the Cheetahs I know of is rumors of Griquas and Bok wing/fullback Willie le Roux being rumoured to be signing for WP/Stormers to be closer to family and friends... this si only arumor at this stage though but you heard it here first!

The Lions. Well, they are back in Super Rugby! That in itself should make the 'pride' happy enough. They have losses in personnel all over the place though since we last saw them in SR action I am almost too lazy to start but.. Pat Cilliers (Stormers), Jaco Taute (Stormers), Paull Willemse (Bulls), Michael Rhodes (Stormers), captain JC Janse van Rensburg (Bayonne, France), Callie Visagie (Bulls), and the rumours; Lionel Mapoe (Stormers). New coaches. New captain, newly promoted... I expect the Lions to struggle for the most part. They do have a few promising guys in the squad though (keep an eye out for flanker Jaco Kriel, wing Anthony Volmink and 10/15 Marnitz Boshoff) and have retained some of their key players of past campaigns in veteran lock Franco van der Merwe, mercurial fly half Elton Jantijes, the experienced and underrated flank and current captain Derrick Minie. Relatively speaking they are a bit understaffed ITO quality for SR IMO though they are bound to pick up 1 or 2 wins surely?
 
Thanks for that........it seems to me that, rather than tackle, he puts himself in such a way as not to get hurt and, if it slows the guy down, fair enough!!

I was always taught and found that when you do that rather than fully commit, you got hurt........by the way he is injured at the moment!!!

Would add also that trait is not too good in a full back!!!

I would happily transfer him back and use his salary on someone more useful to us right now like a centre, hooker, prop, or second row which are all urgently needed!!
 
"Pat Lambie is going to play at No 10, that's it," he said.

"He is not going to play anywhere else for the Sharks except at flyhalf."

Good to hear.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/White-Lambie-will-play-at-10-20131122

Furthermore, more Saffas going to Aus, Brynard Stander to Farce for two years. Considering our back row depth, it is unfortunate but understandable. All the best to him.

Tonderai Chavhanga has joined the Sharks in their preseason training. Fullback SP Marais is likely to be out for the first month or so with a shoulder injury. EP utility back George Whitehead, and prop Lizo Gqoboko, along with former Brumbies second row Etienne Oosthuizen, and Sharks U21 hooker Franco Marais have also been seen during training.
 
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Just seen Etzebeth has been ruled out for 6 months, needs ankle surgery, estimates to be back in May. Big loss there.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9046286,00.html

Indeed he is a very good lock.His contribution on the paddock is also good .In the beginning I thought it was typical overhyping by the Sa commentators but he is the real deal.
I ve read his weight training is exceptional.They had to order special weights for him.This will give him time to get even stronger.
 
I didn't even want to post it onhere I am so depressed. We could have had arguably THE lock combination in SR with Etzebeth and Bekker and now we are without both. That said I'd rather Eben miss the the 1st half than the latter half if I'm trying to be optimistic.

Other than that the pack is developing nicely and what was once a very young and promising pack has now started to deliver on that promise though depth is an issue and we have yet to find a decent halves pairing.

I hope we announce some good signings still but the rumors I've heard isn't inspiring. The only one potential signing that gets me excited is Willie le Roux but I don't think that is anything other than pure speculation TBH.
 
Just seen Etzebeth has been ruled out for 6 months, needs ankle surgery, estimates to be back in May. Big loss there.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9046286,00.html

I think that report is wrong. According to Supersport and News24 he's out for 18 weeks.

So he'll then be available middle March. So basically he won't miss any Super rugby matches...

That said, he only gets the operation next week, and sometimes things are worse than they appear...
 
I think that report is wrong. According to Supersport and News24 he's out for 18 weeks.

So he'll then be available middle March. So basically he won't miss any Super rugby matches...

That said, he only gets the operation next week, and sometimes things are worse than they appear...
He tweeted he was out for 6 months, I'm not sure if that has any weight in the matter I guess time will tell, huge loss if he is gone.
 
At the risk of sounding a bit.. I don't know- bitter? If we could have held on to our signings or home grown players over the last few years, even just some of them;

* born and/or developed in WP
^ signed to WP in recent years

1 Guthro Steenkamp*
2 Schalk Brits* / Scarra Ntubeni
3 Brian Mujati^ / Frans Malherbe
4 Eben Etzebeth
5 PSdT* / Andries Bekker*
6 Francois Louw*
7 Schalk Burger / Siya Kolisi
8 Duane Vermeulen / Bernard le Roux*
9 Francois Hougaard*
10 Morne Steyn*
11 Bryan Habana^
12 Jean de Villiers
13 Jaque Fourie^ / JJ Engelbrecht* / Juan de Jongh
14 JP Pietersen* / Gio Aplon
15 Willie le Roux* / Jaco Taute

And that's just current players with test caps and not counting guys like Deon Fourie, Joe Pietersen, Handre Pollard, Damian de Allende, WP Nel, Marcel van der Merwe etc etc etc...
 
That is a surprisingly strong 23, Hein. Its amazing how the Bulls keep staying up there despite the heavy player turn-over of the last 2/3 years.
 
That is a surprisingly strong 23, Hein. Its amazing how the Bulls keep staying up there despite the heavy player turn-over of the last 2/3 years.

As amazingly srtong as that team may sound, I don't have high hopes for next season.

I know Frans Ludeke is in another class as Pine Pienaar, but these guys are still way too green to be contenders.
 

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