2014 Six Nations: Ireland vs Wales (Round 2)

[munstermuffin]

He would want to bring his tackle count or his metres gained bracket up a bit to be considered a top class player in the next few years in the next few seasons. I'm not going to say I like O'Mahoney because I don't, he still looks like a baby crying to the referee t for 10% of the game, but I'll admit he's improved immensely under Joe Scmidt for Ireland and is playing an important role in the team and I hope it continues.

Stand out forward as well!!!

If his role is being performed tackle count isn't an issue. I am shocked people don't see different roles Schmidt has backrow doing. I'm not saying he's top class or anything because he's not and yes some stats would have to improve. But same would be for Henry for a #7 to have made only 1 break and a total of 13m in 1 run in 2 games is poor. But it's not because he's doing a role not as a traditional 7 but a mixture. POM has actually beaten more defenders but I think also these 2 are performing Schmidts tasks perfectly which has allowed Heaslip to have massive yards going forward and complete an untraditional style but balanced backrow

 

[Peat]

Henry is one of Ulster's main ball thieves and is often second in for them - his tackle counts are huge. O'Brien, he too posts big tackle counts and is second in to a lot of breakdowns. You mention Pocock, he's pretty regularly making a lot of tackles (last ten tests against tier 1 opposition, 4 times he racked up 10 or more tackles). It is still a curiousity that, even as a roaming jackal, he's not making that many tackles in a green shirt. Reason to condemn him? I don't think anyone's doing so. But it's still an oddity. Another example - if you look at the stats here (http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/ireland/match_centre.php?section=playstatshome&fixid=183786) Best makes as many turnovers and one more tackle despite being a front row forward. It's odd, even if the explanation of team orders is understandable and logical.

And that is all I'm saying/suggesting, that people questioning this stat is legitimate. No one in their right mind seems to care too much at the moment for logical reasons.

edit: MM if you think 7s should be making lots of breaks ball in hand you're a long way behind the times for my money.

 

[munstermuffin]

Henry is one of Ulster's main ball thieves and is often second in for them - his tackle counts are huge. O'Brien, he too posts big tackle counts and is second in to a lot of breakdowns. You mention Pocock, he's pretty regularly making a lot of tackles (last ten tests against tier 1 opposition, 4 times he racked up 10 or more tackles). It is still a curiousity that, even as a roaming jackal, he's not making that many tackles in a green shirt. Reason to condemn him? I don't think anyone's doing so. But it's still an oddity. Another example - if you look at the stats here (http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/ireland/match_centre.php?section=playstatshome&fixid=183786) Best makes as many turnovers and one more tackle despite being a front row forward. It's odd, even if the explanation of team orders is understandable and logical.

And that is all I'm saying/suggesting, that people questioning this stat is legitimate. No one in their right mind seems to care too much at the moment for logical reasons.

edit: MM if you think 7s should be making lots of breaks ball in hand you're a long way behind the times for my money.

Agree with your points but think the RBS site is known to be wrong a lot for stats. Regards Henry I just meant it if he has very little turnovers and no metres gained apart from 1 run then what is he doing on field like. I think he's doing well and will support my reason after you answer but excluding his tackles what would you say Henry has been performing well in?
His official stat in attack is 10carries 1 run 13m gained from 2 games. Averaging 1.3m per carry (Had Clean break of 8m) so 9 carries for 5m.
And Peat I view 7 as rat defensively been at breakdown but in attack the 7 in Munster is always option if you look at guys from David Wallace to Tommy O'Donnell. So not in dark ages but these guys average 20+ metres a game. Wallace over his entire Irish career averaged 14.32m per game.
When I say breaks I mean yards. A 7 in my eyes offensively is 1 of best in team with leg drive. And again I'm not knocking Henry as I know he's going well and have a stat to prove it once I hear your opinion first.

 

[Peat]

Both ESPN and RBS give 15m for Henry, but ok.

First game Henry did carry well, even ignoring the break (which was a nice support line, same as the one he ran for BOD where the offload didn't come off, so there's one tick) - he was taking short carries, attracting defenders and getting the ball back quickly and well presented which is said to be a huge Schmidt thing. Interesting to see how in the Scotland game he was a primary carrier but much less so in the Wales game, but then everyone carried to less effect in the Wales game.

That said, the main thrust of Henry's efforts have been in the breakdown, where despite not coming away with much ball he has slowed down a huge amount of ball. That and the up front tackling mean he is being a huge irritant to the opposition. He is a mutant sized fly in the ointment. The workload also gives POM greater freedom to go hunt for those turnovers as Henry will be everywhere - a combined workload where normally people would expect Henry to be the 6 and POM the 7. The balance is a thing of beauty.

 

[munstermuffin]

Both ESPN and RBS give 15m for Henry, but ok.

First game Henry did carry well, even ignoring the break (which was a nice support line, same as the one he ran for BOD where the offload didn't come off, so there's one tick) - he was taking short carries, attracting defenders and getting the ball back quickly and well presented which is said to be a huge Schmidt thing. Interesting to see how in the Scotland game he was a primary carrier but much less so in the Wales game, but then everyone carried to less effect in the Wales game.

That said, the main thrust of Henry's efforts have been in the breakdown, where despite not coming away with much ball he has slowed down a huge amount of ball. That and the up front tackling mean he is being a huge irritant to the opposition. He is a mutant sized fly in the ointment. The workload also gives POM greater freedom to go hunt for those turnovers as Henry will be everywhere - a combined workload where normally people would expect Henry to be the 6 and POM the 7. The balance is a thing of beauty.

Exactly but for your info RBS get stats off ESPN as part of deal if you noticed ESPN classic used to show all old RBS games. Regards your points they're valid. Add in too when a man takes a ball in to contact and the 1st man on his shoulder. For the 2 games Henry is 19 times POM 13 and Heaslip 4. Not a bad reflection on Heaslip it's the understanding of roles. Here's another I like. In a defensive situation POM has found himself being pillar 14 times. Henry has occupied himself as "c" (a being pillar and so on out) 14 times and Heaslip is usually 1or 2 out.

This stat shows POM is playing more like 7 being first in and being pillar when ball lost. Henry then fast in too.
Simple thing is stats are indicators but it's very rare they tell full story or accurate story.
On your point around the short carries in tight POM and Henry were the most used in that order with Heaslip next but in the mid area (between 9&12) Heaslip trucked up a lot more ball

 

[siochain]

No its not. Its well out of date with the tackle count and shows a lack of understanding about different roles in the side. It also mentions his "lack of size" which happens to be 2pounds lighter than the England 6, almost 2st heavier than the French 6 and half a stone heavier than the Scottish 6. I thought he liked looking at stats??


What I don't hear is WHY his tackle count is low! Is it because he is second in etc. What he does (getting body over the ball) is far more dangerous and energy sapping than tackling. Usually thats the 7s job but it seems to be a role reversal with Henry and POM. Does POM have the easier task? Actually just rucking takes more energy than tackling. Bernard Jackman gave an example of quality rucking on 'against the head last week and showed POM clearing out Luatua in the NZ game. At the end of the Wales match when Ireland broke up field POM was the first forward to arrive.


Its not that he isn't making enough tackles. Thats what the anti POM brigade want to believe. In reality what is happening is Schmidt/Plumtree/Kiss think POM is so good at the breakdown they want other players making the first up tackles for him. Now, you have a problem with that and say he is lazy and its not fair that he gets all the glory while others are involved too but what he does isn't exactly easy which is why McCaw and Pocock are so well regarded and as they mentioned over the weekend you have to be brave to do it knowing the opposition are charging towards the back of your neck.


Against Glasgow a few months back POMs tackle count was 19. That was in a different role with Munster.


Schmidt mentioned that he could have been MOTM against Scotland also so he is happy with POM. Plumtree is happy with POM. Penney made POM Munster captain at 23 so he is happy with POM. Les Kiss made POM captain in the American tour last summer (and POM was the stand out player) so he is happy with POM. Anthony Foley described POM a few weeks back as being potentially world class so he is happy with POM.

I said its a well finished article as in the piece I quoted, read it again. I've said all along stats are in general a load of balls.

 

[munstermuffin]

I said its a well finished article as in the piece I quoted, read it again. I've said all along stats are in general a load of balls.

Stats are useful but can also be deceiving and rarely tell story. In modern rugby it's impossible to compare Robshaw to Henry or Billy V to Heaslip or POM to Lydiate as all roles are different.

 

[Peat]

Simple thing is stats are indicators but it's very rare they tell full story or accurate story.

I think everyone knows that, particularly us guys without the full stats to work with. But, as you say, they're indicators. POM's stats indicate an interesting story that is possibly non-intuitive for some. That's all. No one's really ragging on him for it. I'd bloody kill for accurate ruck stats though.

On that note, I'm going to go and sleep I think.

 

[siochain]

The stuff going down here you would think Ireland lost and all down to the back row.......

 

[The Jones Boy]

As for Wales, where do they go from here?

 

[Big Ewis]

(apologies for the off-topic but): Feicarsinn, that disturbing bluegrass on the homepage....it's....it's you again, isn't it ...

 

[MunsterMan]

I'd suggest anyone who doesn't recognise how well O'Mahony played against Scotland and Wales watched both games with their mind already made up about him. I'd say the same about Devin Toner, who i have never rated particularly highly, but has been immense in our first two games.

 

[ror]

I'd suggest anyone who doesn't recognise how well O'Mahony played against Scotland and Wales watched both games with their mind already made up about him. I'd say the same about Devin Toner, who i have never rated particularly highly, but has been immense in our first two games.

No I disagree, alot people appear to think by highlighting the weakness area of his game is POM bashing when infact its just rugby analysis...

 

[MunsterMan]

The very preconceived notion you have is that you are expecting O'Mahony to be the top tackler because he has the number 6 on his back. Here is some 'Rugby analysis', POM has 5 turnovers in our opening two games. Heaslip and Henry combined have 2. Is Heaslip and Henry's lack of turnovers a 'weakness area of their game', or is this Irish team set up in a way which would allow POM to make less tackles, but more turnovers?

 

[ror]

The very preconceived notion you have is that you are expecting O'Mahony to be the top tackler because he has the number 6 on his back. Here is some 'Rugby analysis', POM has 5 turnovers in our opening two games. Heaslip and Henry combined have 2. Is Heaslip and Henry's lack of turnovers a 'weakness area of their game', or is this Irish team set up in a way which would allow POM to make less tackles, but more turnovers?

I dont know where you get your stats, but there lots of people here confusing turnovers with penalties conceded. The Irish backrow has managed 1 turnover each, which is taking a ball from a player and recycling it. They dont as far as i know count a turnover if a player is blown up for holding on the ground etc I suppose its like if player A loses the ball forward during a tackle by player B does not get credited with a turnover. However if player B strippes the ball from him then he does. Nor do they count a turnover for healy if he wins a scrum penalty against the head. Thats just how they work for everyone..
But as a last comment on this matter most people here are only question his dire tackle count which he has maintained under 5 different coaches and I can gaurantee you they all cant have said dont worry about tackling.. thats all. We know POM effected a few turnovers v Wales but most of the talk is about his tackling... Lets hope all the Irish team can raise the game for next saturday even more...

 

[munstermuffin]

I dont know where you get your stats, but there lots of people here confusing turnovers with penalties conceded. The Irish backrow has managed 1 turnover each, which is taking a ball from a player and recycling it. They dont as far as i know count a turnover if a player is blown up for holding on the ground etc I suppose its like if player A loses the ball forward during a tackle by player B does not get credited with a turnover. However if player B strippes the ball from him then he does. Nor do they count a turnover for healy if he wins a scrum penalty against the head. Thats just how they work for everyone..
But as a last comment on this matter most people here are only question his dire tackle count which he has maintained under 5 different coaches and I can gaurantee you they all cant have said dont worry about tackling.. thats all. We know POM effected a few turnovers v Wales but most of the talk is about his tackling... Lets hope all the Irish team can raise the game for next saturday even more...

Won't argue but it depends which stat they do to if your point is true. Having worked in Munster and knowing how guys do stats well and a turnover is simply if opposition looses ball however here is IRBs official call on turnover:
Turnover
When a team concedes possession of the ball, particularly at the breakdown, they are said to have turned the ball over to the other team. This can happen due to defending players stealing the ball from an isolated attacker, counter rucking, a knock on, an intercepted pass or the ball not emerging from a maul (wherein the referee awards the scrum feed to opposing team).

So basically it's not how they work for everyone does it as every stat guys is different and when a coach looks at tackle stats there a lot more than just tackles in they have stats for 1st 2nd and 3rd in after as I've given to Peat. So counter question is why has 5 coaches persisted with POM if he's (to quote yourself) Peter O'Lazy was it? Especially Schmidt who looksat all minor detail why hasn't he dropped him as there are plenty of alternatives

 

[siochain]

MM your last three posts SPOT ON.