2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[ratsapprentice]

Need to pair him with a distributor at 13 though - He's a great footballer, but his primary role is bosh.

No need to rush Slade or Hill IMO - both already ahead of where I (and I'm guessing a lot of others) expected them to be at this stage, Hill particularly.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah no rush, and they're probably post-2015 choices in all likelihood, but it would be nice for them to get a bit of experience now I feel.

 

[goodNumber10]

Cleary talking out his backside again:

England squad shows Stuart Lancaster has deepest pool of players in world rugby
Injuries hit England hard for the autumn internationals, but the coach still has a platoon that will serve him well - and Samesa Rokoduguni is the stand-out name

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...s-deepest-pool-of-players-in-world-rugby.html

 

[j'nuh]

We have:
Barritt - 16 caps
Twelvetrees - 14 caps
Burrell - 6 caps
Eastmond - 4 caps
Joseph - 6 caps
Tuilagi - 24 caps

There are maybe 10ish games before the WC starts.

And neither Hill nor Slade have a cap yet. And neither have had a stint in the full squad, so are behind on the drills.

The time for their inclusion I think may have passed. We have 5 options to pair with Tuilagi, it wouldn't be a good idea to be adding more options and spread the remaining caps/experience even thinner.

Twelvetrees is a freebie to have in the squad because he has enough experience/knowledge of the systems now to fit in a lot easier later than Hill or Slade would have. I suspect if Lancaster hadn't included Twelvetrees, he'd have gone with a 32-man squad.

Add in that you have a bunch of inexperienced wingers too, and it's impractical to carry any more inexperienced players really. Not one year out of a WC.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Cleary talking out his backside again

British rugby journalist spouting ******** - shock horror! :lol:

 

[Crapspray]

Cleary talking out his backside again

Saying 'again' implies he stopped at some point.

The idea that Myler's pick is justified because he's more rounded is ludicrous really. Farrell and Ford are 10 and 21, whichever way around. So why pick the older, less talented player when it comes to the third choice?

If it's a throw-up between rehabilitating a talented player or pinning a cap on a donkey, I know which one I would rather [him] do. Myler's going nowhere, up or down, so let's see if we can't have consistency beaten into Cipriani.

 

[j'nuh]

Meh, Myler's not going to get any game time anyway.

In fact, I doubt Ford will get much either. There's quite a cyclical problem with being the second-choice England fly-half. Due to a lack of experience, you aren't trusted in the important games. So when games are tight, Farrell is kept on for as long as possible. 70 minutes plus. You only ever come on earlier if England are out of reach, and then you don't have a hard test to prove yourself in. So you don't get the experience. Need experience to get experience.

Compare when Flood was second-choice to when Burns was. Flood got quite a lot of time at the end of games, and even started a few when the form player, because he had the experience. No second-choice fly-half has had that luxury since Flood moved to France.

Hopefully Lancaster will see that by doing this, all of his eggs are in the Farrell basket. Injury or loss of form for Farrell could be England's undoing in the run to the WC. So maybe Lancaster will force himself to pick Ford for a test. Then Ford will have the experience to gain the trust he needs from the England management.

But as far as a third-choice England fly-half goes, they are making up the numbers in case of injury. Myler over Cipriani is probably not going to make a bit of difference in the long-term.

 

[Maverick1987]

Meh, Myler's not going to get any game time anyway.

In fact, I doubt Ford will get much either. There's quite a cyclical problem with being the second-choice England fly-half. Due to a lack of experience, you aren't trusted in the important games. So when games are tight, Farrell is kept on for as long as possible. 70 minutes plus. You only ever come on earlier if England are out of reach, and then you don't have a hard test to prove yourself in. So you don't get the experience. Need experience to get experience.

Compare when Flood was second-choice to when Burns was. Flood got quite a lot of time at the end of games, and even started a few when the form player, because he had the experience. No second-choice fly-half has had that luxury since Flood moved to France.

Hopefully Lancaster will see that by doing this, all of his eggs are in the Farrell basket. Injury or loss of form for Farrell could be England's undoing in the run to the WC. So maybe Lancaster will force himself to pick Ford for a test. Then Ford will have the experience to gain the trust he needs from the England management.

But as far as a third-choice England fly-half goes, they are making up the numbers in case of injury. Myler over Cipriani is probably not going to make a bit of difference in the long-term.

Aside from the very small fact that imo Cipriani is the BEST choice at outside half then that makes it a very bad choice . I can't believe Lancaster had the cheek to sit there and try to explain why Myler was a better choice than Cipriani . Also Clark being in ahead of Fraser or Kvesic has ****** me right off . Quickly losing faith with Lancaster and he's running out of time his honeymoon period has gone and now he has to deliver . He's won precisely naff all so far . It's time to prove your worth Stuart or step aside .......

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I agree with something I read on the wasps board where someone said something to the effect of:

We're in danger of assembling a team to get to the semi final of a world cup but without the flair to win it outright.

The exclusion of Cipriani, inclusion of Clark, and also the exclusion of Wade are examples - yeah I know, Wades made mistakes in recent weeks but to be fair was demanding selection for the last 2 years until he sustained an untimely injury.
I don't like the message which seems to be that you can be in poor form and stay in the squad - as long as you're big enough! Neither 36 or Burrell have been in great form. Both have made mistakes in big games. The moment Wade has a few blips he's suddenly out of the picture.

 

[Crapspray]

There's an informal interview with Rowntree on the RFU website (I can't get a direct hyperlink; it's in the RFU TV bit) discussing Kruis and Clark. It's only four minutes long, but he explains Clark being picked because he did well on the fitness tests in the August camp and is involved in games a lot. (I kid you not, that's about it.)

That may be the case, but was there ever any concern over Kvesic's (or any other flanker's) fitness? Considering he made 29 tackles on debut, I don't think anyone could seriously suggest it. Nor were the likes of Morgan and Vunipola considered fit when they played anyway. Seems to be an admission of, "he's an average work horse who can be relied to give 5/10 for 80 minutes in a test match". Hardly an inspiring reason; especially considering the vastly better competitors. Nor is it the selection policy of a side looking to win the world cup.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Maybe Clark's being prepared to be sacrificed in the Pool game against Fiji?

God knows certain players will need to be wrapped in cotton wool for that game. Jokes aside, whilst taking Fiji seriously, it's an example of where you need to rely on the wider squad.

 

[thechosenfamily]

Aside from the very small fact that imo Cipriani is the BEST choice at outside half then that makes it a very bad choice . I can't believe Lancaster had the cheek to sit there and try to explain why Myler was a better choice than Cipriani . Also Clark being in ahead of Fraser or Kvesic has ****** me right off . Quickly losing faith with Lancaster and he's running out of time his honeymoon period has gone and now he has to deliver . He's won precisely naff all so far . It's time to prove your worth Stuart or step aside .......

I don't think that anyone doubts that Cipriani is on good form at the moment but IMHO Lancaster and the coaching staff are making sure that 1. there is no return to his previous off field shenanigans and 2. He has been accused of being a bit of disruptive influence within teams in the past and they may want a bit of time to see if he has matured.

I will say at this point that I was a big supporter of Cipriani in the early years at Wasps but, there seems to be to many chinks in the persona for anybody in the England setup to take too much of chance with him right now

To suggest the honeymoon is over for Lancaster IMHO is premature as I think Englands play has vastly improved under his tenure.

Yes, we may not have won anything YET but I honestly believe that, particularly with a "full strength" 15, we are very very close to big things.

 

[Maverick1987]

I don't think that anyone doubts that Cipriani is on good form at the moment but IMHO Lancaster and the coaching staff are making sure that 1. there is no return to his previous off field shenanigans and 2. He has been accused of being a bit of disruptive influence within teams in the past and they may want a bit of time to see if he has matured.

I will say at this point that I was a big supporter of Cipriani in the early years at Wasps but, there seems to be to many chinks in the persona for anybody in the England setup to take too much of chance with him right now

Those days have long gone imo he's the model professional now .

Cipriani told Sky Sports News HQ: "It's disappointing but it doesn't change daily habits. I'm still trying to get better every day in training and in every day. If that's my focus on improving and throughout the season I keep improving, hopefully by the end of the year I'll be better.

"There are options in all positions when it comes to selection and I think that's a great thing for the England selectors - they have so many great players to pick from.

"I've just got to get back to getting my head down and make the right sounds on the field.

"I think with every English player, all they want to do is represent England. It's the biggest honour in the game and I think it's just important to keep doing my day-to-day work and keep my habits good."

That's a quote from him after learning he wasn't in the squad . This a quote of a man who's come a long way from where he was before and he imo is the 1 England player I could see being in a world XV if given the opportunity to flourish . His potential ceiling is high it's unreal

 

[thechosenfamily]

Those days have long gone imo he's the model professional now .

Cipriani told Sky Sports News HQ: "It's disappointing but it doesn't change daily habits. I'm still trying to get better every day in training and in every day. If that's my focus on improving and throughout the season I keep improving, hopefully by the end of the year I'll be better.

"There are options in all positions when it comes to selection and I think that's a great thing for the England selectors - they have so many great players to pick from.

"I've just got to get back to getting my head down and make the right sounds on the field.

"I think with every English player, all they want to do is represent England. It's the biggest honour in the game and I think it's just important to keep doing my day-to-day work and keep my habits good."

That's a quote from him after learning he wasn't in the squad . This a quote of a man who's come a long way from where he was before and he imo is the 1 England player I could see being in a world XV if given the opportunity to flourish . His potential ceiling is high it's unreal

Impressive indeed, and he does appear to be much improved both mentally and physically.

I do think he will feature at some point, he has too much talent not to, but I think the Autumns are too early.

However, with the RWC just round the corner who can say, he may make the cut to that squad

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Clarke has the same issues as goode, strettle. They are average players playing in a good team which means they end up on the international radar somehow.

Saints strength in the back 5 is wood (who is very underrated by people on here), manoa, Dickinson and lawes....not Clarke.

As for myler I agree with him being in the squad. He is the most Farrell like replacement we have. So having all our plans around Farrell and he gets injured leaves other non Farrell like players.

He is no way near as bad as people are making out and will control a game much better than cipriani but on the flip side doesn't have the individual flair.

 

[Maverick1987]

Impressive indeed, and he does appear to be much improved both mentally and physically.

I do think he will feature at some point, he has too much talent not to, but I think the Autumns are too early.

However, with the RWC just round the corner who can say, he may make the cut to that squad

Yeh I think you are probably right . Big welcome by the way always good to have new people with new ideas

I hope Cipriani can prove people wrong . I think we may see him in a Northampton shirt before long anyway with Myler being 30 and a bit meh . Then we will really see what he can do playing behind that pack and in front of a seriously good back line ..... Mouthwatering really

 

[Maverick1987]

Clarke has the same issues as goode, strettle. They are average players playing in a good team which means they end up on the international radar somehow.

Saints strength in the back 5 is wood (who is very underrated by people on here), manoa, Dickinson and lawes....not Clarke.

As for myler I agree with him being in the squad. He is the most Farrell like replacement we have. So having all our plans around Farrell and he gets injured leaves other non Farrell like players.

He is no way near as bad as people are making out and will control a game much better than cipriani but on the flip side doesn't have the individual flair.

I agree on the Clarke situation . I sort of agree with Myler aswell and I'm not saying he's a crap player just my preference on who I like to watch play . I do feel that a lot of the time Myler has an armchair ride though . I wonder what would happen if Cipriani played for Northampton and Myler played for Sale for example ...

 

[thechosenfamily]

Yeh I think you are probably right . Big welcome by the way always good to have new people with new ideas

I hope Cipriani can prove people wrong . I think we may see him in a Northampton shirt before long anyway with Myler being 30 and a bit meh . Then we will really see what he can do playing behind that pack and in front of a seriously good back line ..... Mouthwatering really

Thanks for the welcome, I try to be balanced in my views, I am by definition an England fan first, club second.

Could not agree more with your last comment, I hope he does as well.

 

[j'nuh]

tbf to Myler, he did blow Glos away in the first game of the season. Haven't seen him since though.

 

[Maverick1987]

[2014 EOYT] England

Thanks for the welcome, I try to be balanced in my views, I am by definition an England fan first, club second.

Could not agree more with your last comment, I hope he does as well.

I'm the opposite really I'm Leicester first England a very close second although I tend to talk more about England on her because it's more controversial

I must say this is a great squad for Leicester though . If they pick Care and Dickson in the matchday 23 we won't be missing a single England player ! This could be a good international break for us ....