2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

[TRF_Olyy]

Fffaaaiiirrr enough, makes sense.
I'm trying not to read too much into the NZ tour (other than Burns and Cipriani doing well internationally) - otherwise I'd be discounting Eastmond completely.
I think Twelvetrees is still our first choice 12, but I want to see both Burrell and Eastmond tried there during the AIs. Realistically I think we'll see Eastmond get one start at 12 (Samoa, probably) and Burrell one, or maybe two, games at 13.

I really do like Twelvetrees, but he's so inconsistent, both for club and country - seems a bit mad that we don't give Burrell a run there as it's his preferred position.



Really happy to hear Nowell played today, as well. Was about to ask when he's expected back.
Really hope he can make it into the EPS squad - going to be a big ask, coming off the back of a pretty long layoff, Watson playing so well for Bath, Yarde finally getting game time for England, Wade finally back from injury and Ashton being a Saracen.
What might see him through is if he gets more game time at 15 (which is likely), and Wilson keeps Foden out of the Saints XV - Lancaster seems reluctant to use Foden (I know he's had his injuries, so maybe this is unfounded, but just a feeling I get) so maybe Nowell could sneak in as a fullback rather than wing. I do really like Foden, too, though.
It's been a long old time since we've had this many talented back three players vying for honours.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If we have Burrell and Tuilagi then we have to play Cipriani or Burns who can take the ball to the line.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I have liked Eastmond at Bath so far, very different to his appearances vs the ABs. To be fair to him, those games the whole team was misfiring and the 12-13 channel was a mess more because of Tuilagi in my opinion. Eastmonds kicking game was pretty sharp, more than 12 trees form my recollection. I would still like to see Burrell given a run at 12 in an England shirt just to see how it works. Ultimately you don't get many players performing as he did in their first appearances in an England shirt (one of those games being against Ireland).

It's a pity we seem to have all these players to choose from yet still can't form a proper 1st team.

 

[goodNumber10]

I've got a similar feeling, Patchey.

I can't quite place it - he's a great backup to Manu, and I thought the way he was dropped in the 6N was harsh.
But at 12, I don't think his distribution is good enough - he gets intercepted a lot and his pass to the right is noticeably dodgy.

Might work - I just feel a little uneasy about it.

I actually know where you are coming from here. Is deffo a wild card gamble.....

 

[Peat]

Hear ye, hear ye. Peat is bored. What follows is his grading of the England team by resources in each position.

Loosehead - I know they say Corbs is fit for good, but that's a believe it when I see it. Him and Marler is a good to very good pair of props to have - potentially the best combo in international rugby - but I feel both have a little proving to do in terms of consistent form/fitness. Vunipola is lagging a little behind, needs to improve his scrummaging, although he's safe from Mullan/Waller/Catt for a little at least. Good if Corbs is fit, Acceptable if he isn't.

Hooker - Not sure what Tom Youngs' form looks like at the moment, he's shown both the biggest impact and the biggest downside of any England hooker recently. Hartley remains solid but uninspiring, I'd like to see Webber given a chance to build on the summer. Don't think anyone's challenging that trio too much at the moment. Given none of them's an established reliably classy international hooker, I'd say depth is currently Acceptable

Tighthead - I'm assuming no Cole and that's an issue for the upcoming window. None of the other contenders would get near him and Wilson with both of them fit. I suppose it's good as we sorely need depth there but that's scraping the barrel for positivity. My guess is Brookes is the front runner, looks like Quins have a rough patch coming which won't help Sinckler. In any case, I feel the position is Concerning

Grunt lock - Launchbury has started the season really well and I love him more than I'd ever love my own son. Slater's injury reduces competition to him and Attwood really unless Stooke starts getting game time. Even then he's a bolter for this window and you'd suspect Lancaster would just play two jumper locks. I feel the position here is Good

Jumper lock - Lawes and Parling is a genuine selection battle, even if most of us would prefer Lawes I suspect, and Kitchener's getting very close to the argument. Kruis must be hopeful of playing a part but needs more gametime. Matthews would be the outside bet but really its the first two names, which is hard on the talents around. Gaskell maybe deserves a mention. Excellent

Blindside - Hopefully we might finally see the Croft vs Wood selection battle. If we don't, Jamie Gibson might be starting to push a case. Garvey's ankle problem is frustrating. I'm not a huge fan, but Johnson is a decent fall back option, and maybe Fearns could string together some games as well. Plus most of our opensides can play (better) here. Excellent

Openside - Robshaw, Haskell and Fraser have all started the season like raging bulls. Kvesic will have plenty to do when he gets back. Wallace is sliding out of the argument. But that's his problem, not ours. Only slight ****le is two of the guys aren't that orthodox and the orthodox guy is unproven and made of heroin needles. Good

No 8 - Bill and Ben the Flowerpot Men's a fantastic pair of options as long as they don't break, at which point we panic... maybe Ewers? Should have mentioned him as a 6. Waldrom, thanks no thanks. Only two guys with only one of them an 80 minute man (if that) means only Good

Scrum-Half - Ben Youngs has responded well, Care always brings home, Lee Dickson is Lee Dickson. It's possible that new improved Wasps back will result in seemingly new improved Joe Simpson - could be a trap that. I think it's probably a Good situation.

Fly-Half - We know Farrell's gonna get picked and get the Lion's share of the time, but what about guys like Burns/Cips/Ford who have more natural talent and instinct but have things to prove at that level? Is Farrell actually good enough? What if he gets injured? I feel there's too many questions around the shirt, exciting as some of the might be, to be happy. The situation is Acceptable but that is a conservative prognosis.

Inside-Centre - So we've been over this... Burrell has defensive points to prove, plus I want to see him coping with an international blitz defence, and with the distribution role. Twelvetrees is not a consistent decision maker or as technically gifted as we once thought him to be but can be a strong option. Eastmond has defensive points to prove. Barritt would have to prove that he can prosper in a more attack minded England. The kids are all alright, but not there yet. Hill might be knocking on the door very loud though. Nevertheless, it is Concerning.

Outside-Centre - Looking ok for once. We've got options that can back up Tuilagi, if not challenge, and Tuilagi remains himself. It's not the real McCoy yet, but it's somewhere between Acceptable and Good.

Wing - Some might disagree, but I don't think we've got a single winger who we can rely on defensively and expect big attack from. Nowell might genuinely be our best winger now, crazy as it is. There's a ton of talent, a lot of which is starting the season well, but a lot of points to be proven. Concerning.

Full-back - I'm not overly happy about Foden being on the bench for Northampton, cos that means the main pressure on Brown is from Goode, which is not happy news. I mean, he's not awful, but... anyway, Brown/Foden/Goode with Tait, some of the youngsters, Arscott and maybe Pennell in the background is strong in theory, but could easily turn out to be thin in practice. Just Good.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think Back three is a real issue for us. while i don't think some of the guys who get slated are as bad as people make out, i don't think the front runners are as good as we make out.

For me no one has really put their hand up, and i can't think of many back three players outside of Foden, Brown and Nowells i'm genuinely comfortable with at international level. I think pretty much all of Yarde, Wade, Ashton, May, Strettle and Watson will give it a decent go and have good and bad moment - but i don't think they will bring much that others won't and will the genuinely be on a par with the SH wingers?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I thought Watson went off injured for bath at the weekend?

I want nowell and someone else.

Yarde looked lazy ( as did Burrell btw) and foden doesn't look anywhere near match fit.

I'm not sure about wade at international level. Will have to wait and see.

My preferred team so far would be

Corbs webber willson
Launchbery lawes

Haskell wood Morgan ( I know we won't see this though)

Care burns

Eastmond Manu

Yarde brown wade ( unless nowell is back)

I know we won't see that. Robshaw has looked useless in both games. Haskell is playing 7 much better and has loads of experience. Wood is still performing as a 6 (wearing a 7 shirt though!)

 

[Geordie]

Is Nowell looking to play 15 for Exeter or stay on the wing? Thus would you consider him for the England wing spot.

Im a big fan of a bruising powehouse of a 6. For me (and im a big fan of Wood) haskell should start there...but id keep an eye on Ewers form also.

And is Twelvetrees really all we have?? I dont trust him remotely. Id prefer to have a look at Burrell at 12...but i also thought Eastmond put a good performance in, in the 1st test...and took a lot of unwarranted stick for the 3rd test.

 

[Tmartin995]

Nowell made a 35 minute cameo in the A-League yesterday before being subbed off. It was apparently planned. He scored two tries during his time on the pitch and has apparently added 5kg+ of muscle and is the quickest he's ever been.

Really hope that Ewers, Slade, Nowell and possibly Hill are included in the setup for the AIs. I see Ewers as a six for England and long term could be great with Billy at 8 and a Kvesic or Fraser etc. at 7. Slade was very impressive against Manu on Saturday, I don't recall a single half break from Manu and Slade stood him up on several occasions.

 

[Patchey]

If I was picking a team based both on form so far and how I think players will be doing by the autumn I'd do something like this:

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Morgan
9 Care
10 Burns / Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees / Eastmond
13 Tuilagi
14 Nowell
15 Brown

16. Webber, 17. Marler, 18. Sinckler, 19. Attwood, 20. Kvesic 21. Simpson, 22. Cipriani, 23. Daly.

That is an England team I could get very excited about. Realistically of course I think while that starting back line might happen, the bench will be very different and Wood is so cemented in the 7 shirt he'd have to lose a leg to be dropped.

Hear ye, hear ye. Peat is bored. What follows is his grading of the England team by resources in each position.

Tighthead - I'm assuming no Cole and that's an issue for the upcoming window. None of the other contenders would get near him and Wilson with both of them fit. I suppose it's good as we sorely need depth there but that's scraping the barrel for positivity. My guess is Brookes is the front runner, looks like Quins have a rough patch coming which won't help Sinckler. In any case, I feel the position is Concerning

Fly-Half - We know Farrell's gonna get picked and get the Lion's share of the time, but what about guys like Burns/Cips/Ford who have more natural talent and instinct but have things to prove at that level? Is Farrell actually good enough? What if he gets injured? I feel there's too many questions around the shirt, exciting as some of the might be, to be happy. The situation is Acceptable but that is a conservative prognosis.

Outside-Centre - Looking ok for once. We've got options that can back up Tuilagi, if not challenge, and Tuilagi remains himself. It's not the real McCoy yet, but it's somewhere between Acceptable and Good.

Wing - Some might disagree, but I don't think we've got a single winger who we can rely on defensively and expect big attack from. Nowell might genuinely be our best winger now, crazy as it is. There's a ton of talent, a lot of which is starting the season well, but a lot of points to be proven. Concerning.

Full-back - I'm not overly happy about Foden being on the bench for Northampton, cos that means the main pressure on Brown is from Goode, which is not happy news. I mean, he's not awful, but... anyway, Brown/Foden/Goode with Tait, some of the youngsters, Arscott and maybe Pennell in the background is strong in theory, but could easily turn out to be thin in practice. Just Good.

Agree on all there, except I am even more concerned about Outside-Centre. In theory we have plenty of depth behind Tuilagi, but in practice it is all a bit shaky. Burrell did well in the 6N (very well in fact) but then looked pap in NZ, so I'm not sure where he stands (and as I previously mentioned, he's a bit static development wise as he isn't playing 13 at Saints). Daly has buckets and buckets of talent but needs to have a good run of games at 13 before we'll know for sure if he's ready to step up. Joseph seems to be out of favour with the management. Trinder doesn't convince me he'll ever be able to step up full to test level, despite being a very good domestic player. Slade seems to be getting a run at 13 but we all know he's a 10/12 at heart.

More than that though, I'm not convinced that we're set up to play our best without a player like Manu at 13, even if one of the guys mentioned above comes good. When I was watching the Wasps game this weekend I kept thinking how much I'd love to see someone who passes like Daly in the Outside Centre channel. However on second thoughts, do we have a 10-12 axis that would get the ball to him in the right places and do we have a set of outside backs who are used to playing outside that kind of running/passing 13? The answer to the first question is no in my opinion. As for the second, guys like Nowell, Wade, Brown and Yarde have all played outside distributing 13s at club level but it seem that the England back line has become conditioned to expect a 13 to either make a break and offload or smash it up, recycle the ball quickly and for the outside backs to get ball on the second phase. If we really want to have a squad with depth and versatility in the backs we need to learn to rely less on a Tuilagi type player but I don't see how we do that in the time between now and 2015.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If i was picking a squad ,this is what i would go for not what i think lancaster would pick, my squad would be-

Loosehead- Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan/Barrington
Hooker-Hartley, Webber, George
tighthead- D.Wilson, Sinkler, Brookes/Cole
Locks- Launchbury, Attwood, Lawes, Parling, Kitchener
Flankers- Robshaw, Fraser, Haskell, Fearns
Number 8- Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum Half- Care, Simpson, Youngs
Fly Half- Cipriani, Burns, Ford
Inside Centre- Burrell, Barritt
Outside Centre- Tuilagi, Joseph/Trinder
Wings- Yarde, May, Wade
Fullback- Brown, Foden, Nowell

Quite Saracens heavy but that's most of the rugby I have seen. I can't pick Farrell as he hasn't started, Wood didn't look that good and I went for a big 6 over Croft.

 

[Patchey]

If i was picking a squad ,this is what i would go for not what i think lancaster would pick, my squad would be-

Loosehead- Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan/Barrington
Hooker-Hartley, Webber, George
tighthead- D.Wilson, Sinkler, Brookes/Cole
Locks- Launchbury, Attwood, Lawes, Parling, Kitchener
Flankers- Robshaw, Fraser, Haskell, Fearns
Number 8- Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum Half- Care, Simpson, Youngs
Fly Half- Cipriani, Burns, Ford
Inside Centre- Burrell, Barritt
Outside Centre- Tuilagi, Joseph/Trinder
Wings- Yarde, May, Wade
Fullback- Brown, Foden, Nowell

Quite Saracens heavy but that's most of the rugby I have seen. I can't pick Farrell as he hasn't started, Wood didn't look that good and I went for a big 6 over Croft.

Music to my ears .

On a serious not, I'd be pretty happy if that was the EPS, although I'd go Kvesic over Fearns.

Can anyone clarify, again, how many changes Lancaster can make to the EPS this time? Or is it the start of the season where he can pick whoever he likes and only for the 6N and June Tests can he is limited to a certain number? I know he's been very creative in naming both an EPS and a 'Tournament Squad' to get round it but I'd be intrigued to know.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Music to my ears .

On a serious not, I'd be pretty happy if that was the EPS, although I'd go Kvesic over Fearns.

Can anyone clarify, again, how many changes Lancaster can make to the EPS this time? Or is it the start of the season where he can pick whoever he likes and only for the 6N and June Tests can he is limited to a certain number? I know he's been very creative in naming both an EPS and a 'Tournament Squad' to get round it but I'd be intrigued to know.

I cant see how you can choose Kvesic as he hasn't played either. Also that would mean we have 3 opensides and one blindside, I would also add Ewers as well, and then Devoto in the centres

 

[Geordie]

Indeed you cant forget the Exeter lads.

Some of them are in fine form...young Hill at 12. Slade, Ewers is a huge lump that England should be seriously looking at ....at 6.

Even Nowell is returning and played a cracker in his brief cameo.

It'll be interesting to see who can hold their form. Ie Burns and Cipriani are looking very impressive...can they keep it going.

Can Twelvetrees find any kind of consistancy. If he cant...i want him nowhere near the squad.

 

[goodNumber10]

looked lazy ( as did Burrell btw)

I know we won't see that. Robshaw has looked useless in both games. Haskell is playing 7 much better and has loads of experience. Wood is still performing as a 6 (wearing a 7 shirt though!)

I really don't agree with those two comments, Burrell had one almost man of the match performance and was industrious against wasps.

Robshaw has shone in a whipped team, i'm not sure how anyone can class him as useless under those conditions.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I really don't agree with those two comments, Burrell had one almost man of the match performance and was industrious against wasps.

Robshaw has shone in a whipped team, i'm not sure how anyone can class him as useless under those conditions.

Well I've watched all the games on TV (and saints Gloucester in person) and that's what I thought.

Burrell got stood up a lot in the wasps game and several times when the ball went to ground near him he just watched it rather than pouncing on it.

As for robshaw, he didn't do anything stand out for quins. Other flankers have put in monstrous performances but not robshaw.

If Haskell plays it's got to be 7, as he seems to be focusing his game on that position.

 

[Peat]

If Nowell's gained speed that's very happy news. The one criticism I had of him at international level was he didn't really look fast enough to take advantage of all the space he was being given at times. If he's changed that, then he's probably the strongest tackler and one of the strongest in the air and with his boot. I'm not sure on his defence (i.e. positioning) but none of them really cover themselves with glory there. I don't care if he's playing full-back, if anything that's great, Lancaster clearly wants at least one winger who can slot into full-back if needed. No longer needing a specialist 15 on the bench would also be great.

 

[ratsapprentice]

 

[Patchey]

Well I've watched all the games on TV (and saints Gloucester in person) and that's what I thought.

Burrell got stood up a lot in the wasps game and several times when the ball went to ground near him he just watched it rather than pouncing on it.

As for robshaw, he didn't do anything stand out for quins. Other flankers have put in monstrous performances but not robshaw.

If Haskell plays it's got to be 7, as he seems to be focusing his game on that position.

In the England system he can play as a 7 with any number on his back it would seem. I would love to see a Robshaw/Haskell combo on the flanks, the physicality, experience and strength that would have, phwoar.

Re Robshaw, I'm with GN10 on this, he was immense. If you have the time rewatch the game and try and focus on the Quins pack. They were monstered by Sarries for most of the game (scrum excluded) and Robshaw was pretty much the only thing between them and utter collapse. Put another guy on his shirt for the game and the score would have been either worse.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I don't see how people talk about the 7 shirt and don't put Fraser down. He is in the best form , he is a genuine fetcher which people have been wanting. Haskell should play at 6/8 I wouldn't even mind Robshaw - Haskell- Fraser as you have the ball handling and the ground work available. Would it lack carrying though ?