[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand

[jessta]

I like the squad! Boy do we have some depth!

Great to see Tuipulotu, Vito, Fekitoa and Slade all getting call ups.

So I haven't had my ear to the ground with this kind of stuff, but looking toward RWC 2015 (which will be 30 players right?), barring injuries and including SBW, it seems highly likely that:

Props: Charlie Faumuina, Tony Woodcock, Ben Franks, Wyatt Crockett and Owen Franks

Hookers: Mealamu, Coles with Harris and Coltman vying for the last hooker spot (Harris maybe having the edge at this stage I hear??)

Locks: Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock with Tuipulotu, Romano, Bird and Thrush will compete for 2 spots between them.

Loosies: Jerome Kaino, Sam Cane, Liam Messam, Richie McCaw and Kieran Read with possibly L. Whitelock, Vito, and Luatua up for at most 1 spot although a squad of 30 suggests presumably only 5 loosies are selected right?

Half back: Smith, TKB, and TJ

Five Eight: DC, Cruden, and Barrett. I'd suggest they will take 3 guys as opposed to 2 like RWC2011 and use Barrett off the bench as utility - Slade as back up.

Centres: Nonu, C. Smith, SBW, then Fekitoa vs Crotty for 4th midfield spot.

Outsides: Savea, Ben Smith which leaves 2 spots for Piutau, Jane, Dagg and maybe Kahui to fight for.

Is this how people feel things are shaping up? Sorry to take the leap to RWC2015 already!

I agree with everything except I wouldnt rule out Francis saili just yet... also battling for a spot in centers. Crazy to think players of dagg and janes class are in genuine threat of loosing there spot. Youd have to think they would pick piutau if he keeps his form up. Kid is a very special player that doesnt come by to often and offers class at fullback and wing.

 

[ABs2011]

I agree with everything except I wouldnt rule out Francis saili just yet... also battling for a spot in centers. Crazy to think players of dagg and janes class are in genuine threat of loosing there spot. Youd have to think they would pick piutau if he keeps his form up. Kid is a very special player that doesnt come by to often and offers class at fullback and wing.

I must admit I completely forgot about him (Saili) and of course he should be included as a contender for the last center spot. Im obviously not privy to how he trained with the ABs etc but my hunch is that he didn't impress as much as theyd have hoped. Certainly on field he didn't go as well as I had hoped - not bad though. In line with my previous post though, if you get the chance at AB level you really need to shine as there are just do many guys waiting in the wings. IF Fekitoa comes out all guns blazing then Saili might be kissing his chance good bye. I also think Crotty is on the AB radar more than Saili at the moment as well. I feel he has really stepped up in the last 18 months or so.

Piutau, yup absolutely. I probably should have had him in as a confirmed RWC2015 squad member. It does seem to imply though that either Jane or Dagg will miss out. I hate to think it will be Jane cause I really rate his all round game, but at the same time I don't think the ABs will drop Dagg.

What are your thoughts? If the ABs had to chose 4 outside backs for the RWC who would they be? (Assuming Piutau is injury free). And who would you chose? Open question to all of course.

I fear they would go Savea, Smith, Piutau and Dagg, whereas I would much prefer Savea, Smith, Piutau and Jane

 

[jessta]

Wel people are reluctant to start Smith over dagg at fullback as smiths punt is not nearly as effective. However piutau on the otherhand has a punt as big as daggs and a far more lethal running game (im talking current 2014 dagg, not the dagg of 2010/ 11.) When jane returned to the all black setup last year after injury, hansen remarked that he was as important to the squad as carter and mccaw. I dont know if that was just a case of motivational coaching to lift janes spirits though. I dont think the all black selectors would be wanting to drop jane or dagg, however if dagg doesnt get back to his head turning form of 2010/ 11, the most sensible option would be to drop him as I agree with you cory jane offers bucket loads. However my gut feeling tells me an in form jane would be sacrificed for dagg due to the selectors faith in him. This would have to be one of if not the biggest selection headaches come 2015.

 

[Shaggy]

Wel people are reluctant to start Smith over dagg at fullback as smiths punt is not nearly as effective. However piutau on the otherhand has a punt as big as daggs and a far more lethal running game (im talking current 2014 dagg, not the dagg of 2010/ 11.) When jane returned to the all black setup last year after injury, hansen remarked that he was as important to the squad as carter and mccaw. I dont know if that was just a case of motivational coaching to lift janes spirits though. I dont think the all black selectors would be wanting to drop jane or dagg, however if dagg doesnt get back to his head turning form of 2010/ 11, the most sensible option would be to drop him as I agree with you cory jane offers bucket loads. However my gut feeling tells me an in form jane would be sacrificed for dagg due to the selectors faith in him. This would have to be one of if not the biggest selection headaches come 2015.

I don't think any of those players mentioned would be dropped if they were all fit ... some might be used as impact players of the bench, which is just as important as the starting players, in the modern game, in my view.

... I realise that you can't play them all at the same time, but with test series's, tours, and RWC's, you can certainly rotate (yes I know we don't like to use that word), in and out of the match day teams.

 

[ABs2011]

I don't think any of those players mentioned would be dropped if they were all fit ... some might be used as impact players of the bench, which is just as important as the starting players, in the modern game, in my view.

... I realise that you can't play them all at the same time, but with test series's, tours, and RWC's, you can certainly rotate (yes I know we don't like to use that word), in and out of the match day teams.

But with a world cup squad of 30, can they include all 5? Particularly seeing as SBW will be there and Barrett shuld be included as well.

Seems to me they only have room for 4 outside backs.

Some more details to show what I'm getting at:

RWC2011 the ABs had a squad of 30 with a 16 - 14 split. In the backs they took 3 halfbacks, 2 five eights, 4 midfielders, and 5 outsides.

Assuming for RWC2015 they take 14 backs and the key assumption being they take DC, Cruden and Barrett, then as far as I can see they either need to drop a midfielder or an outside. Maybe you are saying they only take 3 midfield specialists and all 5 outsides? with maybe Smith and Piutau covering?

I hope that doesn't happen tbh! I much prefer 4 specialist mid field options, with arguably one or 2 of them as outside cover (i.e. SBW and Fekito for example covering wing and Barrett covering 15) as opposed to making Ben Smith or Piutau play out of position at 13.

 

[Shaggy]

But with a world cup squad of 30, can they include all 5? Particularly seeing as SBW will be there and Barrett shuld be included as well.

Seems to me they only have room for 4 outside backs.

True enough ... someone will have to miss out if all of the backline contenders are fit ... but what are the chances there won't be injuries

 

[Larksea]

interesting talk on the NZ opensides.

the thing I love about Cane and Todd is that every chance they have had for the All Blacks they have given it absolutely everything and still been able to maintain a high level of accuracy, their tackle counts blow out and they come off bloodied and brutalised. IMO Braid is a very good 7 but not as good as these two guys - I just dont feel he is quite as accurate as cane & Todd. infact he maybe being overtaken by Shane Chruistie as well who has been an absolute beast, and IMO ahead of Ardie Savea right now.

And we've not even talked about latimer!?

Latimer is a player who never ever lets a team down, he often keep sam cane on the bench and without a doubt if the All Blacks needed a 7 I have no doubt Lats would do the business. Its kinda a shame that he is consistently one of the best 7's in NZ. The chiefs are at their best when hes on the field, the best team in NZ and yet he constantly gets overlooked by All Black and arm chair selectors alike.

IMO one year out from a world cup you don't pick guys for the future you pick them for right now. Maybe Ardie Savea is a project best left till 2016?

 

[Darwin]

But with a world cup squad of 30, can they include all 5? Particularly seeing as SBW will be there and Barrett shuld be included as well.

Seems to me they only have room for 4 outside backs.

Assuming they have three 9's and three 10's (which I think they will), the option is either 3 midfielders and 5 outside backs or 4 midfielders and 4 outside backs. Both are very workable in my opinion due to versatility within the squad. With only 3 midfielders you would have Carter covering 12 with Smith (and possibly Piutau) covering 13. With only 4 outside backs you would have Barrett covering fullback and SBW/Fekitoa covering the wing. I'm not sure at this stage which combination I prefer....

I'm not sure exactly what the squad sizes are for the next RWC? It is usually 30, but given we have 23 players in the match day squads now that number may increase to 31 to account for the extra prop teams have to carry....

 

[ABs2011]

I just think centre is too hard/critical a position for fill ins to cover at international level. I just keep thinking, Christian Cullen, Leon MacDonald, Mills,...none of those experiments worked well. IF they feel they need to convert someone (i.e. Piutau or B. Smith) then I would much prefer they make those guys play super rugby at that position, otherwise I think it spells disaster at international level to play such a tough position without any real practice. On the other have midfielders going to wing is a lot more doable at a pinch. As a result I MUCH prefer the 4 midfield/4 outsides makeup of a squad.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think World Cup Squads are going to be increased from 30 to 31 to take into account that squads now need 5 props to cover 3 props on the bench. I noticed Stuart Lancaster say in an interview that the 31 he will choose for the WC; which leads me to believe the IRB have already told coaches of this increase. If so I think squad breakdowns of 17 forwards/14 backs or 16/15 will be common.

 

[Darwin]

I think World Cup Squads are going to be increased from 30 to 31 to take into account that squads now need 5 props to cover 3 props on the bench. I noticed Stuart Lancaster say in an interview that the 31 he will chose for the WC; which leads me to believe the IRB have already told coaches of this increase. If so I think squad breakdowns of 17 forwards/14 backs or 16/15 will be common.

Steve Hansens final squad for this England series will be 31 players, which also supports 31-man squads. I don't think we will see many squads with a 16/15 split - I imagine 17/14 will be what most sides opt for, but a few sides may even go for an 18/13 split...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Steve Hansens final squad for this England series will be 31 players, which also supports 31-man squads. I don't think we will see many squads with a 16/15 split - I imagine 17/14 will be what most sides opt for, but a few sides may even go for an 18/13 split...

Yep, you're probably right that 17/14 split will be most common seeing as 8 of the forwards will have to be the front row and that would leave only 8 to cover 2nd row and back row, if only 16 were chosen.

 

[Patchey]

If we look even beyond 2015 we'll have a very nice player pool to pick from in most positions - these are just the promising guys under 25 who will likely feature for NZ some day (or already do), with current ages in brackets.

Hooker: Coltman (24), Harris (22), Marshall (21), Funnell (23), Taylor (23)
Prop: Tameifuna (22), Moody (25), Toomaga-Allen (23)
Lock: Retallick (22), Whitelock (25), Tuipulotu (21), Bird (23)
Loose Forward: Cane (22), Savea (20), Shields (23), Whitelock (23), Luatua (23)

Halfback: Kerr-Barlow (23), Smith (25), Perenara (22), Hall (22), Drummond (20
First Five: Cruden (25), Barrett (22), Taylor (25)
Midfield: Saili (23), Fekitoa (22), Crotty (25), Ngatai (23)
Outisde Back: Dagg (25), Savea (23), Piutau (22), Visinia (21), Nanai-Williams (24), Marshall (23)

We could field a team of players 23 years old and younger who would beat most international teams: Toomaga-Allen, Harris, Tameifuna, Retallick, Bird, Luatua, Cane, Whitelock, Perenara, Barrett, Savea, Saili, Fekitoa, Visinia, Piutau.

Stop showing off!

 

[Big Ewis]

Stop showing off!

they're filling up the tank at maximum in bragging before the world cup, in which they'll be insanely disappointed again.
Let em show off a little bit while they can, will ya ! (jk...)

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

http://www.espnscrum.com/newzealand/rugby/story/225271.html

Good article from Craig Dowd, though to be honest the reason I posted it here is that he mentions that Kahui might be coming back.

 

[ABs2011]

http://www.espnscrum.com/newzealand/rugby/story/225271.html

Good article from Craig Dowd, though to be honest the reason I posted it here is that he mentions that Kahui might be coming back.

Good to hear that Dowd is hearng such rumours.

I don't have any links, but my memory was always that Kahui was likely to try and come back for the RWC. Does anyone else recall the commentary surrounding his departure overseas? It was more about getting some $ while he can given his constant injury worries throughout his career, but I always thought his plan, if possible, was to try and make the RWC squad.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Good to hear that Dowd is hearng such rumours.

I don't have any links, but my memory was always that Kahui was likely to try and come back for the RWC. Does anyone else recall the commentary surrounding his departure overseas? It was more about getting some $ while he can given his constant injury worries throughout his career, but I always thought his plan, if possible, was to try and make the RWC squad.

Yep his contract certainly allowed for him to return and push for a place at the World Cup, whether or not that was actually going to happen was anyone's guess!

I'd love to see Kahui and (to a lesser extent) Toeava back. Neither player really fulfilled their potential for the All Blacks.

 

[jessta]

Isnt tamati ellison coming back to NZ super rugby next year? Midfield is stacked... could have nonu, sbw, crotty, saili, conrad smith, fekitoa, kahui and ellison to choose from. No chance ben smith or piutau should be converted to center... enough quality there as it is

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm very worried about the AB's for the England series.
We have so many youngsters in the team cohesion will be a problem. Super XV is a great competition but it's nowhere near the same intensity as test match rugby.
We have no warm up game before England arrive. it's just straight in cold and that is another serious problem for cohesion.
If England front up they can roll us, no question.
It's a worrying proposition for Hansen.
A transitional time for our team between a bunch of oldies and a bunch of kids.

 

[Darwin]

I'm very worried about the AB's for the England series.
We have so many youngsters in the team cohesion will be a problem. Super XV is a great competition but it's nowhere near the same intensity as test match rugby.
We have no warm up game before England arrive. it's just straight in cold and that is another serious problem for cohesion.
If England front up they can roll us, no question.
It's a worrying proposition for Hansen.
A transitional time for our team between a bunch of oldies and a bunch of kids.

I don't really agree with you here. Our starting XV and reserves will be almost identical to the side we had last season - the was no shortage of experience and cohesion then!

The only noteable losses from last year are Hore (who was used in rotation with the other 2 hookers) and Carter (though he barely played last season), and we could well have the addition of Kaino's experience. I don't have the stats with me (as I'm on my phone) but I would imagine the likely All Blacks 23 will have over twice as many caps as Englands 23.

The 'transitional' phase you speak of started 2 years ago when we introduced the likes of Coles, Retallick, Cane, A Smith, Savea etc. It is still slowely occuring (as it always does) but I don't expect we will see many (if any) of the more experienced players leaving before the RWC.

This of is not to say England can't beat us - of course they can, as they are developing into a pretty good side. I don't think they will beat us however, and if they do I don't think it will be because of our lack of experience. ....