[2014 EOYT] Italy vs Argentina

[Jaguares]

@Conrad Smith and any other rude Argentinians!

1st of all. apart from Haimona and Geldenhuys! they are all Italian! Italian law is clear! "Jus sanguinis" And BTW most of the 6N teams user qualified players which I am against anyhow.!
2. You cant hide the fact that there is a war in Argentina anyhow about whether you are "Spanish or Italian"... And those that keep strong links to Italy.
3 Argentina's and Uruguay's cuisine IS ALL ITALIAN. Spain Raped Argentina ITALY MADE ARGENTINA!
4 Oh yes you'll happily take the "European" "Italian" passport to travel freely, and make you feel superior to all the other South American countries, Because you are SOOOOO "European", but then you all of sudden forget it! I have plenty of South American family so I know all about it!
5 Italy Argentina should be a "healthy" brotherly Latin derby... But you make it "TOXIC"

You are an affront to the values of rugby!

And the really sad thing is that a lot of Italians will support Argentina vs other teams... and you just managed to p*ss them all off!

Hey hey hey

Who are u??? In your first message you have insulted former users, that's not a good start. A German talking about rugby codes, very strange. It's easier to find a muslim talking about how delicious it is beer

 

[Horacito]

Taking things to the national confrontation is not very healthy. First of all, this is not ARGENTINA, is Argentinian rugby, a small, very small part of the argentinian society.

1. The fact that six nations sides naturalize other players is not an excuse: that only means national sides are only taking care of wining against representing the union and the local amateur teams they are suposed to take players from. If you ask me, I think it even goes against the spirit of sports ethic.
2. In Argentina there is not war between italian descendents and spanish descendents, if you're not referring to that one to see who can insult them the most.
3. Argentina's cuisine is that of an inmigrants country, if you don't know enogh about it to talk, that's your poblem. There is plenty of regional food, and the national food is the asado, not ravioles, not pizza, not pasta in general. But we have good italian food, that's right.
4. Nobody feels superior to other south american countries, what you're talking about is a kind of racism that comes from the '50s. Sadly, many people thinks the same thing.
5. It shouldn't be, it should be a game between two teams who need their points and who, for some reason, are in similar conditions: admited in a tournament they probably don't deserve to be in, struggling to change people's opinion and traying to expand their rugby basis to get better.

How is an affront to rugby a country who's national team is plenty of amateur rugby players who honour their tradition and allways plays with respect against every team they have to play against? If you're saying WE are an affront to the values of rugby, we didn't wrote a post to insult/ reproach anything to a WHOLE country of 42 milion people.

Greetings.

 

[oldprussians]

Hey hey hey

Who are u??? In your first message you have insulted former users, that's not a good start. A German talking about rugby codes, very strange. It's easier to find a muslim talking about how delicious it is beer

1 If you look carefully it was you who was insulting 1st! Parisse Haimona ect
as human being I have at least the right to take exception
2 Germany is the OLDEST rugby federation in mainland Europe
3 I actually support Argentina against almost any side! Yo soy el hijo de Roma con la familia peruana

 

[oldprussians]

Taking things to the national confrontation is not very healthy. First of all, this is not ARGENTINA, is Argentinian rugby, a small, very small part of the argentinian society.


1. The fact that six nations sides naturalize other players is not an excuse: that only means national sides are only taking care of wining against representing the union and the local amateur teams they are suposed to take players from. If you ask me, I think it even goes against the spirit of sports ethic.
2. In Argentina there is not war between italian descendents and spanish descendents, if you're not referring to that one to see who can insult them the most.
3. Argentina's cuisine is that of an inmigrants country, if you don't know enogh about it to talk, that's your poblem. There is plenty of regional food, and the national food is the asado, not ravioles, not pizza, not pasta in general. But we have good italian food, that's right.
4. Nobody feels superior to other south american countries, what you're talking about is a kind of racism that comes from the '50s. Sadly, many people thinks the same thing.
5. It shouldn't be, it should be a game between two teams who need their points and who, for some reason, are in similar conditions: admited in a tournament they probably don't deserve to be in, struggling to change people's opinion and traying to expand their rugby basis to get better.

How is an affront to rugby a country who's national team is plenty of amateur rugby players who honour their tradition and allways plays with respect against every team they have to play against? If you're saying WE are an affront to the values of rugby, we didn't wrote a post to insult/ reproach anything to a WHOLE country of 42 milion people.

Greetings.

On your first point. I actually agree... But It was an Argentinian fan here who started being rude not me!
And my points are illustrative.
And of course I have met many a charming Argentinian....


1. If you ever read anything of mine from another Rugby forum... especially rugby.it you will see that I taker very big exception to qualified players, and actually have great respect for Argentina that doesn't really have any. So we are at least in agreement there.
2. We will have agree to differ there..... And of course there shouldn't be... But I have met enough Italian Argentinians, who say I am Italian! I have seen it in Brazilian Italians and Uruguayan Italians. Italian is still the biggest second language spoken in Argentina. And at the end of the day if someone carries an Italian passport and gets the advantages of it surely it is only "Just", if he so desires to play for Italy.
3. It was an illustrative point
4. The question should be asked to the other South American countries... The sad thing is if you got your act together you could kick the US in touch from Mexico down if you stop bickering among yourselves, and got a Latin American union going. But then again that Latin temperament is also reflected in the Euro zone between the Germanic zone, and the Latin Zone.
5. Again I disagree... But that is yours and my prerogative. I think it aught to be a derby. And a friendly one. Rugby terms ofcourse no half hearted tackles

But anyhow this is ridiculous! it is a game of Rugby and I repeat I did not start insulting the oppositions players!

And I will still be supporting Argentina in their next game!

 

[Horacito]

Let's keep it in the sports zone, things get messy when we try to give exemples out of that.

If you call an argentinian player who's playing with Italia a mercenarie, that's not an insult. That's a fact. Let me explain:

I do believe Castro feels italian, or at least that he plays his heart for Italia, and that he is a patriotic rugby player. Sure. But that doesn't take the fact that the first reason he begin to play with Italia is that there was a man called Omar Hassan, who happens to be the best tighthead prop in the history of the game playing in his zone, and he never had the level to fight with him or Roncero, or Ledesma, or Scelzo, and that's why after leving basketball and training for three months with argentinian staff of the Pumitas he went Europe and, finally, Italia. And then he begin his well-known career. Again: I'm sure he feels his Italiano heritage, and sure Italia is the team of his heart, but that doesn't change the fact that he took the italian passport and had an international career with them because... well, because argentinian are so european and staff.

And the same thing with the rest of them. And I've never met an argentinian who was commited enough to play at a selection in rugby and didn't play his guts for the team, but that's how things are. I don't know what moves a Fijian or an Australian or a Tongan to play with Italy, so I won't speak for them.

 

[Big Ewis]

mmmmm, he's German alright

 

[oldprussians]

Let's keep it in the sports zone, things get messy when we try to give exemples out of that.

If you call an argentinian player who's playing with Italia a mercenarie, that's not an insult. That's a fact. Let me explain:

I do believe Castro feels italian, or at least that he plays his heart for Italia, and that he is a patriotic rugby player. Sure. But that doesn't take the fact that the first reason he begin to play with Italia is that there was a man called Omar Hassan, who happens to be the best tighthead prop in the history of the game playing in his zone, and he never had the level to fight with him or Roncero, or Ledesma, or Scelzo, and that's why after leving basketball and training for three months with argentinian staff of the Pumitas he went Europe and, finally, Italia. And then he begin his well-known career. Again: I'm sure he feels his Italiano heritage, and sure Italia is the team of his heart, but that doesn't change the fact that he took the italian passport and had an international career with them because... well, because argentinian are so european and staff.

And the same thing with the rest of them. And I've never met an argentinian who was commited enough to play at a selection in rugby and didn't play his guts for the team, but that's how things are. I don't know what moves a Fijian or an Australian or a Tongan to play with Italy, so I won't speak for them.

The thing is I don't necessarily agree. .. Castro Parisse or Mclean... Just because they played for Italy doesn't mean that they don't care about Argentina any more... I don't think that things are that Black and white. I'm sure that Parisse and Castro still love Argentina and support them as Mclean probably still loves Oz.. and when Oz play Argentina like this time I'm sure the boys gave Luke a really hard time .. Because this is Rugby not real life and death. ..People of mixed background are not black and white. . But in rugby they have to choose a team..

BTW Castro ect would be Italian whether they were cleaning toilets or playing rugby..

So for me Castro can be wholly Italian.....err... Siciliano and wholly Argentinian and wholly aboriginal and wholly German... and that's no problem. . Does not make him a mercenary. .. BTW. .. HE mentions those countries. ...

what annoys me is the qualification after 3 years... Because it was intended to stop the practice in football by some small countries of giving passports to Brazilians so they could play in their team. Unfortunately i think it has actually worsen the problem because teams that were only using citizens 15 years ago are now full of ''qualified'' players... and now the richest leagues will get the best Pacific players. . Crazy!

My opinion we either go completely global as i do in real life.. we are ALL God's children, and say national teams are based on who is at the current time playing in that country, or we go purely on citizenship... this situation is neither one or the other. .. and to stop the practice of passport for team.... If you acquired the passport after the age of 18 you have to wait 5 years... that would stop the current practice of planning to bring Pacific players in...

I think you'll find we are not so far apart. .

Oh ans BTW as far as i know... Italy is the only tier 1 country that has put a self imposed limit of 3 residency qualified players..

 

[Helmy]

Just finished watching the game, and aside from the penalties and messy scrums, I enjoyed it. Haimona looks good at first five-eight, and I think taking him off was a bad decision. Italy should have won this game, and probably would have if they could have found a way to cross the try line, but a bad pass, knock on or turnover killed all of their good chances dead. It's a pity.

I have a soft spot for both Italy and Argentina, so it didn't really bother me who won, but would have liked to see Italy get up. Parisse never fails to have a good game.

 

[Hap]

Just finished watching the game, and aside from the penalties and messy scrums, I enjoyed it. Haimona looks good at first five-eight, and I think taking him off was a bad decision. Italy should have won this game, and probably would have if they could have found a way to cross the try line, but a bad pass, knock on or turnover killed all of their good chances dead. It's a pity.

I have a soft spot for both Italy and Argentina, so it didn't really bother me who won, but would have liked to see Italy get up. Parisse never fails to have a good game.

That's right, mate. And it's very often like this. When we play point to point games is like we don't have (and we don't) the coolness to manage the game. That's why we get so many "honourable defeats".

About Italian-Argentinian discussion. I really envy Argentina for their home managment and relative internal championship. I really would like, one day, that FIR learns from you how to do it.

Don't mess up things, please, Parisse has Italian passport since birth because his father is 100% Italian that went in Argentina to play. Same for Castro, double passport since birth, but I don't know his family history and don't care though.
It's a no way out discussion, if we go on like that, because I can say that all italian who migrated in the last century are mercenaries, but I don't think that. It's just people who choose to seek their fortune where they think it could have been better!

It's different for Diego Dominguez. Even if I love him (in a sport related way, of course) and I will always be grateful to him for what he has done with us, I am glad that nowdays rules are changed and shiftings like that are not allowed anymore.

Just a last request, to close this boring post with a smile (which is the most important thing), dear Argentinian friends could you please send back this traitors list, taken just from friday's match (and their ancestors)?
List:
- Amorosino;
- Cubelli(?) not sure, if you want you could keep him;
- Senatore;
- Desio;
- Lavanini;
- Petti;
- Cortese;
- Moroni;

Thank you!

 

[Helmy]

That's right, mate. And it's very often like this. When we play point to point games is like we don't have (and we don't) the coolness to manage the game. That's why we get so many "honourable defeats".

Oh, I know. I watch quite a few Italian matches when I can get my hands on a download. Like, I said, I have a soft spot for them. At the very least, they look to be giving the ball some air these days, which is nice to see. In the backs, from what I can tell, there's a few up and coming young players being blooded, and it bodes well for the future once they learn to calm things down a bit (I hope). Although, in saying that, Mclean seemed to be knocking on a fair bit of ball in promising situations, as well as failing to score in the corner with a promising overlap (albeit from a bad Parisse pass).

In regards to the Italian/Argentinian debate, from a neutral's perspective, given the history between the two countries, I'd say there are numerous dual citizens and it's no surprise that there's just as many crossovers in sporting codes.

 

[oldprussians]

mmmmm, he's German alright

err. .. Preuße. .Danke. ..

And remember you are only borrowing Elsass and Lothringen. . .

 

[Hap]

Oh, I know. I watch quite a few Italian matches when I can get my hands on a download. Like, I said, I have a soft spot for them. At the very least, they look to be giving the ball some air these days, which is nice to see. In the backs, from what I can tell, there's a few up and coming young players being blooded, and it bodes well for the future once they learn to calm things down a bit (I hope). Although, in saying that, Mclean seemed to be knocking on a fair bit of ball in promising situations, as well as failing to score in the corner with a promising overlap (albeit from a bad Parisse pass).

Yes it is. It's something we aren't used to, this is one of the reasons of huge amount of handling errors and of course it's an highlight on our lack of skills (except few players like Parisse).

We have some youngsters like Morisi and Campagnaro which have tremendous potential but they look like wild horses (specially Campagnaro). Some says "power is nothing without control" and well, that's Campagnaro.

In regards to the Italian/Argentinian debate, from a neutral's perspective, given the history between the two countries, I'd say there are numerous dual citizens and it's no surprise that there's just as many crossovers in sporting codes.

Totally agree :yes:

 

[Big Ewis]

err. .. Preuße. .Danke. ..

And remember you are only borrowing Elsass and Lothringen. . .

no but I just meant how technical and meticulously detailed your posts look...and no Alsace and Lorraine are to stay French now, the Germans don't look like they're going to provoke another world war in a long time, think they've learned their lesson maybe they'll become Chinese in a while, that I can believe...

About Parisse and Castro, Orquera and the traitor or mercenary tag, I find it ridiculous obviously and didn't want to comment on it but since it's up in the air...
they never forget about where they grew up, but then they have close ties with Italy, Argentinians know that...just reading his wiki page:

"His father, also Sergio, played for L'Aquila where he won the Italian Club Championships in 1967 before his job with Alitalia took him to Argentina in 1970. Sergio Junior was born in 1983 and played his early rugby for La Plata. His family spoke Italian at home and every year Sergio would go on holiday to Italy."

Castro played in Italy professionally when he was barely 20, i.e. the age where it all starts for a pro athlete. It's not like those guys are completely bought to play for, say, Japan, entirely poached, and forget all about their home country for cash. There are strong ties, even more sometimes, to Italy. It's unfair to just condemn them without even looking into finer details of their biographies and facts.
I'm 100% positive it happens the other way around betw Arg and Ita. Guys who look interesting from an athletic standpoint who are Italians but have whatever ties with Arg and play there and become Argies.

 

[Hap]

@Big Ewis that's what I was meaning, you explained it better. Thanks.

 

[oldprussians]

no but I just meant how technical and meticulously detailed your posts look...and no Alsace and Lorraine are to stay French now, the Germans don't look like they're going to provoke another world war in a long time, think they've learned their lesson maybe they'll become Chinese in a while, that I can believe...

LOL... But just like the silent revenge taking place in the California New Mexico ect... Elsass and Lothringen, more so Elsass an interesting thing is happening. After WW2 France banned the speaking of German... So now the very Old generation speak German and the local dialect... the middle generations not but the new younger have a big resurgence in the German and the local dialect... The are actually getting German schools back up and asking Germans across the boarder who also speak the same dialect to come to teach...

 

[CarferFragen]

no but I just meant how technical and meticulously detailed your posts look...and no Alsace and Lorraine are to stay French now, the Germans don't look like they're going to provoke another world war in a long time, think they've learned their lesson maybe they'll become Chinese in a while, that I can believe...

About Parisse and Castro, Orquera and the traitor or mercenary tag, I find it ridiculous obviously and didn't want to comment on it but since it's up in the air...
they never forget about where they grew up, but then they have close ties with Italy, Argentinians know that...just reading his wiki page:

"His father, also Sergio, played for L'Aquila where he won the Italian Club Championships in 1967 before his job with Alitalia took him to Argentina in 1970. Sergio Junior was born in 1983 and played his early rugby for La Plata. His family spoke Italian at home and every year Sergio would go on holiday to Italy."

Castro played in Italy professionally when he was barely 20, i.e. the age where it all starts for a pro athlete. It's not like those guys are completely bought to play for, say, Japan, entirely poached, and forget all about their home country for cash. There are strong ties, even more sometimes, to Italy. It's unfair to just condemn them without even looking into finer details of their biographies and facts.
I'm 100% positive it happens the other way around betw Arg and Ita. Guys who look interesting from an athletic standpoint who are Italians but have whatever ties with Arg and play there and become Argies.

The point here is that the UAR does not accept players who were not born in Argentina, unless if they were born abroad but his parents fulfill functions in the Argentine diplomatic service or other activity representing the country. The same happens in football, tennis, etc.
The only exception that I remember is Higuain, who was born in France but his father was there playing football professionally at that time. At 18 he opted to represent Argentina. The AFA accepted.