2014 6 Nations: Scotland vs France (Round 4)

[KAPman]

good post. A lot in here is spot-on.

The interesting thing would be to ask the players themselves what they think of this whole situation. Are they globally lucid enough and conscious of what the critics are saying about them ? Do they realize, like, "guys, God, we're soooooo bad, we really need to do something about this, it's embarrassing !..." or do they sort of brush it off each time and keep hoping that with an extra week they'll work on those flaws...
It would be very interesting to pick them one by one and have them interviewed separately and observe their body language, facial expression, the words they use, the tone...

It seems blindingly obvious from the outside, but sometimes even the most intelligent minds lack hindsight when they're the subject of a situation themselves, and it's very hard not to be a fish in a bowl.

I don't think they're that conscious about it...they have an idea obviously, but...
just a small example: in the post-game interview for this match (SCO FRA), Brice Dulin was asked what won the game for France, and he said "well I'm not exactly sure, but....blah blah blah...team, stick together...etc...". He actually didn't know what to answer after an 80min game, not a single clear thought, not a single key word to give


Here's a thought:
after this is over (the tournament), and when Dusautoir, Fritz, Kayser, Parra, all the flankers and eventually Guitoune on the wing return, and they'll be considerably better - maybe all they need is a change at FH to give life to this XV again like Michalak did in 2012.
Maybe, but this will not happen, maybe François Trinh-Duc returning for good could rejuvenate this team and they'd start to find a good tempo and things would come to them gradually. It's not ideal, but knowing we have to keep PSA - perhaps all we need is a bit of a trigger. We know we can play well under him, those 4 straight wins in 2012 were no fluke at all.

Yeah, i mean that's a thought. It's why I'm angry with the way France play, cause i want to see every 6 nations team in the competition give it their best whenever they take the field, and France still do have very talented players. Whenever you look through a French team on paper 1-23 you think 'talent'. I'd find it hard to believe backs as potent and as skillful as Huget, Dulin, Fofana, Medard are happy with the style which France are playing right now.
And Michalak had only a brief moment in the sunshine and then proved a flop in last years six nations and was the reason France finished bottom last year, that and Saint-Andre's persistance in picking him. It's always been a problem in French rugby that they've never really produced a world-class general out-n-out number 10, mostly cause they focus their control of the game coming from 9. Trinh-Duc is as good as the best 10s France have ever produced, and he's not getting rewarded for his skills n his form for Montpellier, it baffles me why he's not playing for France. last year the one game he did start (Against England) was probably the only time in 2013 France looked like they had some direction, and a coherant game plan, until he was replaced by erratic Michalak.
This French team look worse than they did under Lievremont, despite all their flaws when he was in charge they at least, for the most part, looked like they had some structure and a bit of direction to their play. This French team now has nothing, except off turnovers n interceptions.

 

[gaston le gaff]

After the amazing win yesterday in Scotland, PSA still has his job, if you are Irish i am sure you are hoping that he picks the same side or group for the Ireland game next Sat.
If you are French in comes Parra, FTD and a back row which does not include anyone from the 2nd row + anyone else with a little bit of international experience, the players will lock PSA Bru and Lagisquet in the broom cupboard till 21.00 Sat evening only allowing PSA out for press releases and interviews but with absolutely no contact with the players, only thing he does well, talk a good game!!!!! Think its great also for BOD to have his last game in Paris he throughly deserved his send off in Dublin great player great career was a little embarassing for him yesterday but he did well and
Man of the Match, who would have guessed that one completely out of the blue!!!!!!!!!
A draw today at twickers and the final in Paris next Sat. PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The above is now fiction as England went and ruined the party by beating Wales but they deserved their win, miles better than Wales on the day, but the final in Paris was already ruined as PSA has not handed in his notice!!! and has not brought Parra and FTD into the squad so it looks like Ireland and BOD may well have their day in the sun in Paris after all, unless miracles and flying pigs actually exist, because the way the French played against Scotland they can not turn this around in 7 days.....
and low and behold PSA was nearly praising the win on Sun in his post match interviews, until the FFR drops the party politics and employ someone as a sporting coach, we will struggle to get out of the group stages in next years WC!!!! we do not need YES men as coaches in French rugby, and heaven help us if Georgia are in the same group as France Mamuka will beat them up on his own. Only good factor the -20's and the girlies go into Sat games against Ireland looking for the Grand Slam

 

[KAPman]

lievremont wasnt sacked, he had decided to quit after 2011 world cup, n saint andre was appointed before that world cup.
It surprises me, cause history says that Saint-Andre is a great coach. Done good jobs with Gloucester, Sale, Toulon, As a player he was part of a French backline that played with flair and ambition, yet why isnt he coaching that into the current national team???

 

[gaston le gaff]

lievremont wasnt sacked, he had decided to quit after 2011 world cup, n saint andre was appointed before that world cup.
It surprises me, cause history says that Saint-Andre is a great coach. Done good jobs with Gloucester, Sale, Toulon, As a player he was part of a French backline that played with flair and ambition, yet why isnt he coaching that into the current national team???

Not quite sure where you get great from!!!! he won one Championship with Sale, Gloucester never won anything, Sale once and Toulon given the finance that he had and the players he signed he did nothing great, bar spend loads of Boujellal's money, what you guys may not undezrstand the coaching position in French rugby is ultra politics, and the show is run by the FFR...this is one reason why every now and again the players take charge of themselves, Galthie 2003 WC, final last WC against the AB's, as you call it flair and ambition does not given a player an insight into coaching ability and as i have said many times, how many wingers make good coaches??? they are often too far from the action. plus with Lagisquet he screwed up in BO so what the fu** is he doing coaching the French Backs (buddy, buddy situation) The rift between FFR and LNR still exists and it does not matter how many conventions they sign things will not change. So the only way out is to employ a coach who has sporting skills and does not give a monkey's about Politics and the chances of that happening is probably after i become the French President.!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KAPman]

Not quite sure where you get great from!!!! he won one Championship with Sale, Gloucester never won anything, Sale once and Toulon given the finance that he had and the players he signed he did nothing great, bar spend loads of Boujellal's money, what you guys may not undezrstand the coaching position in French rugby is ultra politics, and the show is run by the FFR...this is one reason why every now and again the players take charge of themselves, Galthie 2003 WC, final last WC against the AB's, as you call it flair and ambition does not given a player an insight into coaching ability and as i have said many times, how many wingers make good coaches??? they are often too far from the action. plus with Lagisquet he screwed up in BO so what the fu** is he doing coaching the French Backs (buddy, buddy situation) The rift between FFR and LNR still exists and it does not matter how many conventions they sign things will not change. So the only way out is to employ a coach who has sporting skills and does not give a monkey's about Politics and the chances of that happening is probably after i become the French President.!!!!!!!!!!!

He took Gloucester to a heineken cup semi final where they narrowly lost to the team that became champions that year. I think that's a good achievement. N winning the Premiership with Sale, thats a great achievement. Managing the amount of different nationalities at Toulon also, and doing not bad at all.
In all those teams he had gameplans, discipline and structure, but that hasnt gone into this current French team at all. But I find it weird that he doesnt seem to want France to play with that Gallic flair their famous for.
I'll agree with you about Lagisquet's coaching abilities and I find it weird that he doesnt seem to like backlines playing with pace, and flair. He played with the likes of Blanco, Sella, Berbizier (Some of the best attacking backs of that generation) when he was a player, and he was no slouch of a winger at all. He took the Biarritz backline with the talents of Yachvili, Trialle, Bobo, Brusque in it and turned them into one dimensonal dullness, with a gameplan based around a strong pack and a backline whose main objective was to kick for territory, with limited style or flair to their attack.
He's done nothing to this French teams attack but drag them deeper into their shells it seems.

 

[goodNumber10]

did you ever watch Lagisquet play?

 

[Big Ewis]

well PSA is a guy who believes, as hilarious as it sounds, in pragmatic Rugby. He's coached in England, has a lot of respect for English Rugby and its no-nonsense type demeanor and game plan. He wants smt more simple than the Rugby France played even right before him but at the same time constantly talks about guys needing to win their individual matchups in games, so *almost* like he encourages one-on-one, personal exploits.
The fact that he was part of French Flair himself as a player is completely irrelevant to what he'll preach as a headcoach.

And Michalak never was a fluke: that would mean he sucks but then can manage performances that make him look alright every once in a while. That's not Michalak.
He can be in *total control* for a stretch of games: make excellent passes, some risky/creative ones but right on the money, open up a team's defense and conduct his backs perfectly into the transgression of the curtain, go perfect from the boot, spot-on kick-passes across field, brilliant runs, great steps....etc.....
the only thing he's consistently sucked at is tackling.
But then he can literally forget what Rugby ever was in about 2 weeks, and he's a goner.

Funny enough, I was just watching France Japan from the 2011 RWC yesterday night for old time's sake, and although Japan turned up big time and France was being France by actually allowing a very tight game til about the 65-70th minute (!!), the tries they did score were nice, a couple were very nice.
And despite a considerable change in personnel, it's baffling to compare our attack then with our attack now. In fact, we didn't have the Fofana's, Dulin's, Huget's that we've got now...

 

[KAPman]

well PSA is a guy who believes, as hilarious as it sounds, in pragmatic Rugby. He's coached in England, has a lot of respect for English Rugby and its no-nonsense type demeanor and game plan. He wants smt more simple than the Rugby France played even right before him but at the same time constantly talks about guys needing to win their individual matchups in games, so *almost* like he encourages one-on-one, personal exploits.
The fact that he was part of French Flair himself as a player is completely irrelevant to what he'll preach as a headcoach.

Yeah, pragmatism is all very well, and if France can get a balance of that and gallic flair then they'd be amazing to watch.
The problem is there is no pragmatism with France when they have the ball, which is my point. They have no shape or smartness or discipline right now when they have to create things to break down the opposition.
In fairness to Saint-Andre a lot of the French clubs have been doing this for the past few years as well, they seem content to soak up the pressure of the opposition and get points off turnovers or opposition mistakes.
Yes, teams do need to be clinical when the opposition make a mistake or give away penalties, but its such a negative way to win games if you're not trying to break down the opposition on your own terms of play.

 

[FrenchFan]

lievremont wasnt sacked, he had decided to quit after 2011 world cup, n saint andre was appointed before that world cup.
It surprises me, cause history says that Saint-Andre is a great coach. Done good jobs with Gloucester, Sale, Toulon, As a player he was part of a French backline that played with flair and ambition, yet why isnt he coaching that into the current national team???

because precisely, it cannot be coached. They don't it need coached to them. In youth rugby yes but not at their level.

 

[FrenchFan]

well PSA is a guy who believes, as hilarious as it sounds, in pragmatic Rugby. He's coached in England, has a lot of respect for English Rugby and its no-nonsense type demeanor and game plan. He wants smt more simple than the Rugby France played even right before him but at the same time constantly talks about guys needing to win their individual matchups in games, so *almost* like he encourages one-on-one, personal exploits.
The fact that he was part of French Flair himself as a player is completely irrelevant to what he'll preach as a headcoach.

Yeah, pragmatism is all very well, and if France can get a balance of that and gallic flair then they'd be amazing to watch.
The problem is there is no pragmatism with France when they have the ball, which is my point. They have no shape or smartness or discipline right now when they have to create things to break down the opposition.
In fairness to Saint-Andre a lot of the French clubs have been doing this for the past few years as well, they seem content to soak up the pressure of the opposition and get points off turnovers or opposition mistakes.
Yes, teams do need to be clinical when the opposition make a mistake or give away penalties, but its such a negative way to win games if you're not trying to break down the opposition on your own terms of play.

why is it negative? other nations can play that way. Make a mistake agst the AB and they will punish you. They are historically one of the best counter-attacking teams.

 

[FrenchFan]

He took Gloucester to a heineken cup semi final where they narrowly lost to the team that became champions that year. I think that's a good achievement. N winning the Premiership with Sale, thats a great achievement. Managing the amount of different nationalities at Toulon also, and doing not bad at all.
In all those teams he had gameplans, discipline and structure, but that hasnt gone into this current French team at all. But I find it weird that he doesnt seem to want France to play with that Gallic flair their famous for.
I'll agree with you about Lagisquet's coaching abilities and I find it weird that he doesnt seem to like backlines playing with pace, and flair. He played with the likes of Blanco, Sella, Berbizier (Some of the best attacking backs of that generation) when he was a player, and he was no slouch of a winger at all. He took the Biarritz backline with the talents of Yachvili, Trialle, Bobo, Brusque in it and turned them into one dimensonal dullness, with a gameplan based around a strong pack and a backline whose main objective was to kick for territory, with limited style or flair to their attack.
He's done nothing to this French teams attack but drag them deeper into their shells it seems.

the rugby you're talking about belong to another era. You cannot copy and paste a rugby era into another and coach it. You can't coach flair. Do you think Fofan Fickou Huget need Lagisquet to coach them? they need him like a bullet in the head.

 

[Big Ewis]

A lot of ppl (esp. French fans) have criticized the Top 14 for not having enough flair in it...I partially disagree.
A big defense is smt that is absolutely necessary since the pro age, every coach understands that now. So a big emphasis is on defense, esp. in NH Rugby. But then to say there is no game there, no intent on attack and that teams just count on the opponents to make mistakes or wtvr is just true.

But anyways, yes, France are a terrible team with good/very good pieces about on that 23 surviving games atm, although they did go and WIN the game against England, and brought it to the Italians.

 

[KAPman]

why is it negative? other nations can play that way. Make a mistake agst the AB and they will punish you. They are historically one of the best counter-attacking teams.

The All Blacks too also play brilliant rugby, and commit fully to everything in a game as best as they can.
The way France play is lazy and dumb, and they dont believe in themselves when they have the ball, except off first phase turnovers, and interceptions.
Their mental attitude is their main problem. It has been so negative, and arrogant at times. My point is that they're not trying to play at all. Their backline stands so deep, and they go through moves like headless chickens, not playing whats in front of them nor playing with any intensity or direction

 

[FrenchFan]

He took Gloucester to a heineken cup semi final where they narrowly lost to the team that became champions that year. I think that's a good achievement. N winning the Premiership with Sale, thats a great achievement. Managing the amount of different nationalities at Toulon also, and doing not bad at all.
In all those teams he had gameplans, discipline and structure, but that hasnt gone into this current French team at all. But I find it weird that he doesnt seem to want France to play with that Gallic flair their famous for.
I'll agree with you about Lagisquet's coaching abilities and I find it weird that he doesnt seem to like backlines playing with pace, and flair. He played with the likes of Blanco, Sella, Berbizier (Some of the best attacking backs of that generation) when he was a player, and he was no slouch of a winger at all. He took the Biarritz backline with the talents of Yachvili, Trialle, Bobo, Brusque in it and turned them into one dimensonal dullness, with a gameplan based around a strong pack and a backline whose main objective was to kick for territory, with limited style or flair to their attack.
He's done nothing to this French teams attack but drag them deeper into their shells it seems.

There's nothing weird about the gap btw Lagisquet as a player and Lagisquet as a coach. The reason is that rugby has changed so much since he was a player, and you can't coach flair. You are correct about him and Biarritz. Their game plan was built around their pack and Yachvili. But it did the job at the time.
He is the worst backline coach who could have got the job. Everybody knows that here. Lagisquet got the job because he is in with the suits at FFR and shook hands with the right people at the right time, politics...Nothing will change in the coaching staff of FRA until next RWC. I'd be amazed if anything happened. FFR don't do sacking, they do public hanging, but not sacking. Not the same. Ask Lievremont. Ah well..
But your idea of french rugby is amusing because its a caricature. The domestic league here has ALWAYS been about forward power and not back play. I've always heard as a kid and since my grandad days about the "battle of the packs", it was all about the game btw the forwards, and also btw the best kickers. So much for backs running with flair...so from that point of view, the Biarritz of Lagisquet were NOT an anomaly. On the contrary.

 

[FrenchFan]

lievremont wasnt sacked, he had decided to quit after 2011 world cup, n saint andre was appointed before that world cup.
It surprises me, cause history says that Saint-Andre is a great coach. Done good jobs with Gloucester, Sale, Toulon, As a player he was part of a French backline that played with flair and ambition, yet why isnt he coaching that into the current national team???

yes, Lievremont was hanged publicly. He should have been allowed to continue and given the proper support after RWC 2011. His results spoke for him, a GS + WC final, many pro coaches would be happy with that. Also his backup staff (Retieres and NTamack) had interesting profiles: they had won the U20 RWC. They knew each U20 youngster coming thru the ranks having coached them. That generation vanished and only 2 of them made it into the senior squad. Here is another prime example of how dysfunctional the Federation system truly is.
They could have extended Lievremont's conttract and give him time to develop into the job. After a GS and a WC final lost by 1 pt, sorry I think he had earned it. But no....PSA got the job but to many he has never proved his mettle as a coach in the Top14 which is the benchmark for any aspiring national coach.
Lievremont had far more to offer in terms of coaching than PSA has showed. Lievremont and PSA are poles apart. Marc is a bit of a maverick and not afraid to give younsters his chance. PSA is an out-and-out conservative. The polar opposite of what he was as a player AND captain. There you go. And this is one of his (many) problems at the moment. Lievremont was appointed with very little experience and would have needed proper support (one of them being a communication consultant to learn how to deal with the media, which PSA doesn't need, but that's about the only area). They appointed and then didn't back him when he needed most. For instance they could have appointed a backs and/or forwards foreign coach as I've mentionned with Cotter and the current staff.
You have to understand how the FFR works (or rather does NOT work) because THEY appoint the national coach, they are in charge of the national team. Once you understand the mindset of these people then its not so hard to understand why at times the national side can so underperform...

Back to the Top 14 siouplait..........

 

[FrenchFan]

The All Blacks too also play brilliant rugby, and commit fully to everything in a game as best as they can.
The way France play is lazy and dumb, and they dont believe in themselves when they have the ball, except off first phase turnovers, and interceptions.
Their mental attitude is their main problem. It has been so negative, and arrogant at times. My point is that they're not trying to play at all. Their backline stands so deep, and they go through moves like headless chickens, not playing whats in front of them nor playing with any intensity or direction

ah ah ah. well here scoring off turnovers is a sign of strength and a skill sorry. Interception tries? plenty of them in Super15 rugby nothing wrong with that!

 

[FrenchFan]

A lot of ppl (esp. French fans) have criticized the Top 14 for not having enough flair in it...I partially disagree.
A big defense is smt that is absolutely necessary since the pro age, every coach understands that now. So a big emphasis is on defense, esp. in NH Rugby. But then to say there is no game there, no intent on attack and that teams just count on the opponents to make mistakes or wtvr is just true.

But anyways, yes, France are a terrible team with good/very good pieces about on that 23 surviving games atm, although they did go and WIN the game against England, and brought it to the Italians.

yes Eng couldn't beat us, we finished off Ita in 10 min with 3 tries, the italians couldn't create anything else. They have no structure either and they can't counter attack like we can. And they have no kicker. And Scotland couldn't beat a France B...
So now that PSA has it on a plate for the Irish will they take it and make a teeny weeny dent in their appaling record in Paris? we will see

Can't wait for the domestic league to start again. They'll get a solid, well deserved 2 week break. Clubs will be back to full strength at last. Some cracking games lined up after we draw the curtain on the 6N rugby hiccup. 6N is a pisser for value.

 

[Big Ewis]

yes Eng couldn't beat us, we finished off Ita in 10 min with 3 tries, the italians couldn't create anything else. They have no structure either and they can't counter attack like we can. And they have no kicker. And Scotland couldn't beat a France B...
So now that PSA has it on a plate for the Irish will they take it and make a teeny weeny dent in their appaling record in Paris? we will see

Can't wait for the domestic league to start again. They'll get a solid, well deserved 2 week break. Clubs will be back to full strength at last. Some cracking games lined up after we draw the curtain on the 6N rugby hiccup. 6N is a pisser for value.

hah, me neither. I can honestly say from the bottom of my heart that I'm eager for the Top 14 to resume, the H Cup, and will just watch the France Ireland game almost as an outsider. Everything that made me love Rugby and love France isn't there anymore, and I've given an infinite universe of patience already to PSA and his posse. I'm done, if France plays like that, I'm done. Will definitely keep following and watch the matches and all but I don't feel as emotional or concerned as before.


Oh and cut the crap ppl: France didn't win by luck. It wasn't "luck" that made Weir throw a horribly uncalculated pass out and Huget was furtive and alert enough to get the intercept. All that play is is incompetence from the Scottish attack and great competence from a winger called Yoann Huget. Good speed too to go all the way.

France played AWFUL, awful rugby all night long. No question. But luck had nothing to do with, as far as I'm concerned Scotland couldn't take advantage of SEVEN lost lineouts off own feed, a Vahaamahina out of position, and talk about luck what the hell do you call the Hogg try. Please. Enough.
I'm willing to be ultra-critical and lucid about my side, but I'm not going to sit there and eat up all the crap others throw. Lucidity and fair play is a two sided game. Scotland lost to a miserably incompetent, chaotic France. Deal with it.

 

[KAPman]

ah ah ah. well here scoring off turnovers is a sign of strength and a skill sorry. Interception tries? plenty of them in Super15 rugby nothing wrong with that!

Frenchfan it would be terrible for the championship if France win it this year! I hope Ireland give them a thumping! Though I think the game will be close on the scoreboard, Im backing Ireland to win. Ireland and England are actually playing rugby.
Everything that happened on the scoreboard on Saturday was because of Scotland, and the refs interpretations at the breakdown. There were a fair few moments when France were slowing the ball up just as illegally as a few of the ones Scotland got penalised for. That last penalty wasnt a penalty, as Swinson and Brown were on their feet, and the ball came out of the French players hands on the ground.

 

[FrenchFan]

Frenchfan it would be terrible for the championship if France win it this year! I hope Ireland give them a thumping! Though I think the game will be close on the scoreboard, Im backing Ireland to win. Ireland and England are actually playing rugby.
Everything that happened on the scoreboard on Saturday was because of Scotland, and the refs interpretations at the breakdown. There were a fair few moments when France were slowing the ball up just as illegally as a few of the ones Scotland got penalised for. That last penalty wasnt a penalty, as Swinson and Brown were on their feet, and the ball came out of the French players hands on the ground.

no it would be part of the 6N history. French teams can also win ugly. Your team wouldn't survive 1 month in the first half of the Top14.