2014 6 Nations: England vs Wales (Round 4)

[ratsapprentice]

Youngs is terrible. I'm not his biggest fan when he's playing well - and he is a million miles away from his best.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Regarding Wales' backrow: England have more ball carriers now and I hope that at least one of Billy V or Ben M will be fit. Having two opensides makes less sense when the opposition actually has go forward ball, as its harder to get into a position to compete. Sure, Wales beasted England at the breakdown last year but this was more because we had insufficient carrying ability/go foward, than because of not having a true openside. Lydiate makes more sense in light of England's back row this year, and to be honest I don't think there was ever any danger of Gatland dropping Lydiate anyway. Also, just looked at the match officials and lets' be honest, Roman poite doesn't give a **** about the breakdown/allowing competition.

For me, Jamie Roberts has been Wales' most important player in the tournament so far. Take him out of the equation, and Gatland ball ceases to function. He seems to have come back into some form which is worrying, and especially because Twelvetrees does slip off tackles from time to time. This is Twelvetrees' big test.

The scrum is why I believe we'll lose, especially as I just realised Poite is in charge. I would never wish injury on Adam Jones but I'd breathe easier if he wasn't playing. It'll be the biggest test of Joe Marlers career so far in terms of how far he's come. on the other side, Davey Wilson is a senior player, and he really needs to step up and help out his front-row buddies by putting some heat on Gethin Jenkins, who I'm sure will start. I often feel Gethins scrummaging is underestimated, but there's still no doubt that a good tighthead can put him under pressure.

What Wales side would I be happiest to face?

Ideally for me, the same backline as played France. Namely, keep North at 13 and Liam Williams covering wing. Add in a toenail injury to Adam Jones, and job's a good 'un!

Also: Owen Farrell is goign to be intercepted one of these days. You'll see.

 

[goodNumber10]

Youngs is terrible. I'm not his biggest fan when he's playing well - and he is a million miles away from his best.

Yet still better than Dickson.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Clearly not. You're having a laugh if you think he's currently anywhere near the team.

 

[goodNumber10]

Dickson is no world beater/game breaker but Youngs is literally sh*t.

lol!

Really dont' agree with that, the guys turned more games for England than Care or Dickson combined. Care is playing well and deserves his spot, but Youngs is easily the second best in the country.

I wouldn't even have Dickson in the Saxons squad.

 

[goodNumber10]

Clearly not.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's the opinion of most people currently.

 

[goodNumber10]

Not a big lebowski fan then :/

It is the opinion of others but not mine, and isnt' that the point of a forum? To discuss you opinion against other peoples view if we all agreed al the time we'd just be sat looking at blank screens.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I got the Lebowski reference. Dude.

Youngs and Care basically offer the same thing when on form - a running threat.
We don't need both of them at any one time - particularly when they both have a tendency to be out of form when the other is in form.
Youngs' service is terrible.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

lol!

Really dont' agree with that, the guys turned more games for England than Care or Dickson combined. Care is playing well and deserves his spot, but Youngs is easily the second best in the country.

I wouldn't even have Dickson in the Saxons squad.

Yeah, 4yrs ago.
When's the last time he put in anything other than a sub par performance? Last time I can remember is vs Argentina in the world cup when he came off the bench and scored.

 

[goodNumber10]

He was fine for the 6nations last year, he hasn't been in fine form since the lions imho of course - he struggled on tour but that's the way it goes sometimes.

But i still think he offers more than Dickson, i'd rather have Wigglesworth on the bench than Dickson.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ben Youngs is fat and ****.

Does that help? maybe You'll accept it coming from a fellow Wasp

 

[goodNumber10]

ben youngs is fat and ****.

Does that help? Maybe you'll accept it coming from a fellow wasp

lol!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To be fair I'd rather wiggy than Dickson.
Does everything Dickson does, but to a better standard, and has one of the best box kicks in the business.

 

[Big Ewis]

Not a big lebowski fan then :/

think there's an American poster called "thedudeabides" here...

 

[goodNumber10]

To be fair I'd rather wiggy than Dickson.
Does everything Dickson does, but to a better standard, and has one of the best box kicks in the business.

I think the thing that bothers me is that I don't see the point in having a workman on the bench... the bench for me is to change the game/have an impact. Care can close a game out... so what happens when Care isn't firing, or the pack isn't doing what we need? You bring Dickson on and the game slows down.

For me that's completely alien, I think Dickson is a player that needs to start for a team not come off the bench... Wigglesworth is the same.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I think the thing that bothers me is that I don't see the point in having a workman on the bench... the bench for me is to change the game/have an impact. Care can close a game out... so what happens when Care isn't firing, or the pack isn't doing what we need? You bring Dickson on and the game slows down.

For me that's completely Alien, I thin Dickson is a player that needs to start for a team not come off the bench... Wigglesworth is the same.

I think you're simplifying the purpose of the bench.It will not always be used to change a game for the last 20 minutes. Think about when we made substitutes against both France and Ireland. We didn't want to change anything, we wanted to secure the game and therefore we needed our subs to keep the ship steady. Realistically, substitutions will often also be forced because of injuriesor because a player is not playing well - so often in the case of props. If you bring another prop on, you don't want him to bring something different, you want him to do exactly the same but better.

Scrum half is a complex position and I think us English fans have often looked for the wrong thing in that position. We want game changers, where what you really newed is stability, quick service, accurate service, andmost importantly excellent decision making; in short, everything Ben Youngs doesn't have. Changing the game should be seen as an optional extra.

 

[goodNumber10]

but that's my point. They aren't bringing Dickson on and changing the shape of the game to suit the 9/close it out, and really on both occasions when they've brough Dickson on (france and Ireland) they should really have been going for the jugular not closing the game out - and dicskon doesn't do that. If you're going to close a game out, you want a 9 that comes in and takes the decision making process off the 10, 10 almost becomes little more than a distributor at that stage of the game with 9 taking over the tactics.

I really hate to use the AB's reference but they use their bench to maintain the tempo, not to close a game out - they look to push away from 3 points up not sit on it for 5 minutes. Youngs would do be able to bring that to the England bench, but if care wasn't firing he'd also be an option as a game breaker. At least he'd be an option that i don't see in Dickson.

not sure i'm explaining it that well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Using the AB's as a reference to argue for the inclusion of BY is madness.
He's exactly the sort of player they don't use - the closest AB player to Ben is Tawera Kerr-Barlow... and guess what? They don't use him because he ****s up a lot and his service isn't as good as his rivals.

Our issue is that we don't have an Aaron Smith type player - someone who has really good service (quality of pass + decision making combined) and plays at pace.

 

[goodNumber10]

Using the AB's as a reference to argue for the inclusion of BY is madness.
He's exactly the sort of player they don't use - the closest AB player to Ben is Tawera Kerr-Barlow... and guess what? They don't use him because he ****s up a lot and his service isn't as good as his rivals.

Our issue is that we don't have an Aaron Smith type player - someone who has really good service (quality of pass + decision making combined) and plays at pace.

My reference to the AB's was about how they approach the game and their subs bench, not about the type of player they use. I'm using it not to compare Youngs and Care to Smith etc... but to point out the guys coming off the bench are very similar to those on the pitch.

The fact is they use their bench to keep the tempo of the game where they want it, not to close it out not to change it, lets face facts they seldom need to... for example the miracle try against ireland in november was their subs bench from start to finish. They came on, the tempo and intensity kept up where irelands fell off, and the shape of the game changed for them, in the same way the shape of the game changes for England when dickson comes on when actually what we really need is a continuation of the same game style.