[2013 TRC] South Africa vs. New Zealand in Johannesburg (05/10/2013)

[ABs2011]

Barrett was faster than Le Roux at that moment in the game. At that stage Barrett had been on for about 25 mins, where-as Le Roux had played almost 80-mins of rugby. What I'm saying is that it very difficult to judge who is faster that who in a rugby game as it often depends on the situation. Personally I would probably back Barrett in a straight sprint over Le Roux (all things being equal), as Barrett is very quick for a 10!

The point you make here re speed comparisons is also one which I think cannot be underestimated regarding overall comparisons of players too, but in this case Cruden v Barrett. There is no doubt Cruden has been a bit quiet and Barrett has been outstanding (with a couple of D lapses) BUT I think some people forget that Cruden is playing the toughest part of the game whereas Barrett gets to come on when everyone is buggered and play behind an All Black pack that is probably one of the fittest (if not the fittest) in the world and tends to dominate more and more as the game goes on.

Piutau has benefitted from this as well. To be honest I expect any All Black back replacement to make an impact when they come on in such situations. In contrast TKB should be benefitting from this as well, yet does not seem to be making much of an impact. I wonder how the AB selectors are feeling about him right now as the back up to Smith? I think he has been a bit disappointing to be honest.

 

[donmcdazzle]

and Habanna never has had and never will have a step like Ben Smith

Ben Smith definitely is not slow or slow compared to top tier wingers.

almost impossible to tell relative speeds of players in a rugby game.

Generally acceleration is more important that actual speed anyway

I never said he did. Ben Smith is a very good player in superb form, that doesn't mean he is the best at everything. He isn't slow but he isn't fast either, he is somewhere in the medium range for pace I'd say.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Piutau has benefitted from this as well. To be honest I expect any All Black back replacement to make an impact when they come on in such situations. In contrast TKB should be benefitting from this as well, yet does not seem to be making much of an impact. I wonder how the AB selectors are feeling about him right now as the back up to Smith? I think he has been a bit disappointing to be honest.

Perenara can't get in there fast enough if you ask me. TKB is so messy around the ruck, and seems to almost always take the worst option available, he is in love with going blind no matter how small it is. I get that he is quite physical and defends well, but that shouldn't come at the expense of his core role, which is clear the ball.

 

[ABs2011]

Perenara can't get in there fast enough if you ask me. TKB is so messy around the ruck, and seems to almost always take the worst option available, he is in love with going blind no matter how small it is. I get that he is quite physical and defends well, but that shouldn't come at the expense of his core role, which is clear the ball.

Agreed - shame he got injured! The couple years of experience TKB has on TJ has given him the back up spot IMO but TJ will edge him out soon enough I expect!

 

[nickdnz]

Perenara can't get in there fast enough if you ask me. TKB is so messy around the ruck, and seems to almost always take the worst option available, he is in love with going blind no matter how small it is. I get that he is quite physical and defends well, but that shouldn't come at the expense of his core role, which is clear the ball.

Totally agreed. Hopefully Peranara will be alright for the EoYT - most annoying thing about the RC this year has been Peranara not getting given a shot and then getting injured.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think it's a bit harsh to be judging TKB on the back of a few games playing the last 10 minutes where the ball he's getting is very messy. Let's see what he can do when he actually gets to start, and has some quality ball. Any time Smith has bad ball he's almost useless, whereas you watch TKB in games like the Super Rugby final and he copes very well with the trash he's being delivered (not to mention opposition players being off side almost constantly).

TKB will start against Japan, and hopefully get another start on tour if he's lucky, against a good team, so he can show his worth. To be honest I wouldn't have him as the bench option, regardless of if he plays well. I think he's a much better starter than he is a sub, whereas Smith and Perenara would be equally fine in both situations.

 

[ABs2011]

I think it's a bit harsh to be judging TKB on the back of a few games playing the last 10 minutes where the ball he's getting is very messy. Let's see what he can do when he actually gets to start, and has some quality ball. Any time Smith has bad ball he's almost useless, whereas you watch TKB in games like the Super Rugby final and he copes very well with the trash he's being delivered (not to mention opposition players being off side almost constantly).

TKB will start against Japan, and hopefully get another start on tour if he's lucky, against a good team, so he can show his worth. To be honest I wouldn't have him as the bench option, regardless of if he plays well. I think he's a much better starter than he is a sub, whereas Smith and Perenara would be equally fine in both situations.

Can only judge on what we see I guess. My original point was off the bench our reserve backs have excelled with the exception of TKB who for me has been a bit disappointing. From what I have seen I rate TJ as a better future prospect, however as you say, you never really know until you see them start. Hopefully both will get their chance in the next 5 games.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Can only judge on what we see I guess. My original point was off the bench our reserve backs have excelled with the exception of TKB who for me has been a bit disappointing. From what I have seen I rate TJ as a better future prospect, however as you say, you never really know until you see them start. Hopefully both will get their chance in the next 5 games.

I'm suggesting we reserve judgement for a bit

 

[austingtir]

Can only judge on what we see I guess. My original point was off the bench our reserve backs have excelled with the exception of TKB who for me has been a bit disappointing. From what I have seen I rate TJ as a better future prospect, however as you say, you never really know until you see them start. Hopefully both will get their chance in the next 5 games.

I cant agree with this at all I think given a bit more time TKB will be a very good asset to the AB's along with Smith and Peranara and to a lesser degree Weepu. I think Hansen has it about right. Keep them all in the mix and see who comes out on top. Smith although he'd been good most of this rugby championship i still dont rate him that well. He is totally worthless on defence. Almost a complete waste of space.

There are times when we are defending our line that i feel Smith might aswell fake a blood injury and get someone else on he is that USELESS.

I see Peranara as the long term option he just needs to be smarter.

When TKB comes on he actually makes effective tackles constantly and is like an extra loosie in that respect. If he can get the rest of his game upto a decent standard he's going to be very useful to have on the bench in certain situations.

'

 

[Darwin]

I cant agree with this at all I think given a bit more time TKB will be a very good asset to the AB's along with Smith and Peranara and to a lesser degree Weepu. I think Hansen has it about right. Keep them all in the mix and see who comes out on top. Smith although he'd been good most of this rugby championship i still dont rate him that well. He is totally worthless on defence. Almost a complete waste of space.

There are times when we are defending our line that i feel Smith might aswell fake a blood injury and get someone else on he is that USELESS.

I see Peranara as the long term option he just needs to be smarter.

When TKB comes on he actually makes effective tackles constantly and is like an extra loosie in that respect. If he can get the rest of his game upto a decent standard he's going to be very useful to have on the bench in certain situations.

'

Are you still going on about that? Smith misses the odd tackle, but he actually a pretty good defender, and his cover defense has been a feature of his play for the AB's this season. According to the stats from foxsports.com.au Smith has made 27/33 tackles during the Rugby Championship (82%). That is very good by anyones standard for a halfback! In comparison Genia has made 11/17 (65%), Landajo 22/29 (76%), du Preez 8/10 (80%), Pienaar 13/22 (59%) - i.e. Smith has made more tackles at a better percentage than any other halfback in the competition. You are letting you dislike for Aaron Smith get in the way of objective judgement.

In saying that I agree that Kerr-Barlow is a better defensive halfback than Smith. Indeed I would rate his defense as good as any halfback in world rugby - he is very much like a 4th loose-forward as you suggest. Perenara is a good defender too, particularly on cover defense.

 

[austingtir]

Just because your making a tackle on a stat does not mean its an effective tackle! And Genia is rubbish this is proven beyond doubt.

I have no dislike for Smith, When Kerr Barlow comes on its absolute night and day difference in defence.

Even with those stats i still feel he hides at times and points the finger around to much especially on the try line. Some will say he's directing the defence.....FFS these are seasoned professionals the other players should know where to be.

You'll never convince me his defence is not complete crap.

 

[nickdnz]

Just because your making a tackle on a stat does not mean its an effective tackle! And Genia is rubbish this is proven beyond doubt.

I have no dislike for Smith, When Kerr Barlow comes on its absolute night and day difference in defence.

Even with those stats i still feel he hides at times and points the finger around to much especially on the try line. Some will say he's directing the defence.....FFS these are seasoned professionals the other players should know where to be.

You'll never convince me his defence is not complete crap.

Even in light of statistical evidence.

 

[ABs2011]

I cant agree with this at all I think given a bit more time TKB will be a very good asset to the AB's along with Smith and Peranara and to a lesser degree Weepu. I think Hansen has it about right. Keep them all in the mix and see who comes out on top. Smith although he'd been good most of this rugby championship i still dont rate him that well. He is totally worthless on defence. Almost a complete waste of space.

There are times when we are defending our line that i feel Smith might aswell fake a blood injury and get someone else on he is that USELESS.

I see Peranara as the long term option he just needs to be smarter.

When TKB comes on he actually makes effective tackles constantly and is like an extra loosie in that respect. If he can get the rest of his game upto a decent standard he's going to be very useful to have on the bench in certain situations.

'

I'm not sure how anything you have said in your post actually goes anyway to arguing against the point I was making - that IMO TJ is a better long term prospect than TKB. In fact everything you said in your first paragraph that I bolded I agree with completely. The stuff about Smith is (1) redundant in the TJ v TKB debate and (2) goes to show you are incredibly biased against Smith and makes me question your judgement....Darwin sums that up nicely in his post!

 

[Darwin]

Just because your making a tackle on a stat does not mean its an effective tackle! And Genia is rubbish this is proven beyond doubt.

I have no dislike for Smith, When Kerr Barlow comes on its absolute night and day difference in defence.

Even with those stats i still feel he hides at times and points the finger around to much especially on the try line. Some will say he's directing the defence.....FFS these are seasoned professionals the other players should know where to be.

You'll never convince me his defence is not complete crap.

:lol: You are joking right? Your dislike for Smith is pretty obvious

It is the halfbacks job to direct other players in defense. Every halfback does it. If he wasn't doing it I would be very worried! You are correct that the stats don't tell how effective the tackles were, but Smith generally tackles very low and brings players to ground very quickly. He is not near as physical as Kerr-Barlow, but few halfbacks in world rugby are... The fact you completely ignore any objective evidence on the issue make it pointless debating with you.

EDIT: On the Kerr-Barlow vs Perenara debate. I'm not a big fan of Kerr-Barlow as I do think his delivery around the base of the breakdown is too slow (mainly as he is looking for opportunities to run himself...), but I can see why the AB's selectors are picking him. His defense is superb, and he has a phenomenal skill-set - he still needs to work on his decision making. Whenever Kerr-Barlow plays for the Chiefs he seems to play much better when starting that when coming off the bench. You would think with his skills he would be the ideal impact player, but to me he tries to fit a full 80 minutes of rugby into the time he is on the field - even if he is only on for 20 minutes!

Personally I think Perenara is the most complete New Zealand halfback I have seen in some time. The only question for me is whether he will make step up to test rugby (as some incredibly talented players never manage to make that final step) - I have no reason to believe he won't make that step up though, as he looked composed at whatever level of rugby he has played (despite his young age). Kerr-Barlow, Perenara, and Smith all have quiet different styles of play - whoever gets the AB's 9 jersey over the next few years will very much depend on the style of player the AB's selectors want in the 9 jersey..

 

[austingtir]

:lol: You are joking right? Your dislike for Smith is pretty obvious

It is the halfbacks job to direct other players in defense. Every halfback does it. If he wasn't doing it I would be very worried! You are correct that the stats don't tell how effective the tackles were, but Smith generally tackles very low and brings players to ground very quickly. He is not near as physical as Kerr-Barlow, but few halfbacks in world rugby are... The fact you completely ignore any objective evidence on the issue make it pointless debating with you.

Not joking one bit! Time will show like Genia that Smith is actually a bit of a phony. He is lucky that he has turned up at this stage in the world game where the other teams are to weak to exploit this obvious weakness.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Not joking one bit! Time will show like Genia that Smith is actually a bit of a phony. He is lucky that he has turned up at this stage in the world game where the other teams are to weak to exploit this obvious weakness.

Well good thing Smith isnt a flanker or a centre then. He does his role well and that's what you expect from him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

WOW!! What a TEST match!!

I am so proud of the Boks!! Pity we lost, but great rugby from the start to finish.

I will be the first to apologise that I was building my team up to win this game. I really thought we could do it, and up to Half time I still thought we could. I knew we couldn't stop them from getting the bonus point because they already scored 3 tries. And based on the tempo of the game, more tries would come, as bodies would get tired.

But Congrats All Blacks. It was a well deserved Victory. Our defence was terrible. We have shown now we can attack and score tries, but we forgot to tackle!! You truly are the best team in the world.

Here are my thoughts on the game:

1. I think we all can agree that Nigel Owens had a brilliant performance officiating. Actually all the officials, whenever there was a TMO decision, it was handled promptly and accurately. My only question would be Kevin Coles/Dane Mealamu problem. In all the years of proffessional rugby, has this ever happened before? And how the hell does such a thing happen to the All Blacks?? a team of precision, who never makes a mistake ever... And if it was a TYPO, as the All Black Manager claimed it was, shouldn't it have been a mistake like Dan Cole instead of Dane Coles??

2. Morne Steyn, can't defend. As much as I like him as a player and as a person, he was our biggest liability on defence.

3. Nick Mallett said something after the game which made me sit up and listen. He said the Boks need to work on their fitness. He said the only guy in the Bok-team that was equal to the fitness of the All Blacks was Eben Etzebeth. He said our guys aren't lean enough to match the All Blacks' fitness for 80 minutes. And this game was evident of this. We were right up there with them up to the 60 minute mark, but then we just couldn't keep up.

4. I'm very proud of the crowd. They weren't booing the Haka as some idiots were saying, they were singing out of pride. They helped the team overcome the challenge, and since the IRB hasn't banned singing and chanting from the stands, this will continue to happen. And when the game was over, there was no tirade, no bottles were thrown, no pitch invaders, nada! Boy, did they prove me wrong.

5. Trying to score 4 tries, and beat the All Blacks is a tough ask. And to do this, you have to beat them at their own game. Easier said than done. HM took the gamble, and it didn't pay off... This time...

All in all, it was just bloody amazing. I think there are few matches where your team loses, and you can still walk with your head held high, with pride.

 

[Colombia]

3. Nick Mallett said something after the game which made me sit up and listen. He said the Boks need to work on their fitness. He said the only guy in the Bok-team that was equal to the fitness of the All Blacks was Eben Etzebeth. He said our guys aren't lean enough to match the All Blacks' fitness for 80 minutes. And this game was evident of this. We were right up there with them up to the 60 minute mark, but then we just couldn't keep up.

I don't think SA were playing their natural game, they were playing very expansively chasing a BP which requires more fitness. While it was more entertaining for the fans I think traditional South African rugby playing to the strengths of their powerful pack would have stood a much better chance of winning the test (albeit not the tournament).

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think SA were playing their natural game, they were playing very expansively chasing a BP which requires more fitness. While it was more entertaining for the fans I think traditional South African rugby playing to the strengths of their powerful pack would have stood a much better chance of winning the test (albeit not the tournament).

We weren't playing our natural game. We always try to slow the game down to assist our pack. This time we couldn't do it as we had to use every opportunity available to score a try. But fitness did play a part. We can have all the strength in the world, but if the guys can't keep the intensity going for the full 80, then we will always be in trouble.

 

[Sam Owen]

Not on the NZ TAB mate. I took the ABs @ 1.75 and -2.5.

Yeah I didn't mention T.A.B, I didn't say that they were the T.A.B favourites or anything T.A.B. I can see why you brought that up though.