[2013 Pro12] Round 1

[Bluemoon]

Tovey played very little rugby at 10 last season because Rhys Patchell ousted him. Tovey had a tendency to become very flat and made mistakes when his pack are under pressure (had a fair bit of that at the blues last season). Wales would have to be in a very dire situation for Tovey to get an international cap.

 

[Draggs]

How the hell can you promote the regular season Pro12 as a great league when sides like this are being put out? Laughable. How much of that would start a big Heineken Cup match with the the full team are back? Laulala plus Coughlan and Sherry maybe?

Thankfully for Munster, Edinburgh are not in a good place. That should be a pretty low standard game.



2009/10 was Biggar's breakthrough season where he became first choice and pushed out Hook to centre, it was the following season he had a difficult time, he said in interviews this year that Fiji disaster hurt his confidence.

Somewhat, Biggar fluctuated a fair bit, but overall I'd agree.
I remember him just falling apart at RP when we turned them over early 2010 and again 2011.

 

[Feicarsinn]

How the hell can you promote the regular season Pro12 as a great league when sides like this are being put out? Laughable. How much of that would start a big Heineken Cup match with the the full team are back? Laulala plus Coughlan and Sherry maybe?

Thankfully for Munster, Edinburgh are not in a good place. That should be a pretty low standard game.

Well, it's far from a strong team, but you may be overstating the case a little there. Denis Hurley is a player with bags of European experience, as is Johne Murphy. It wouldn't particularly surprise me to see either (or both) of them in a Munster Heineken Cup XV. Keatley will be starting Munster 10 this year, so you can't complain there, Archer is Munster's second choice tighthead and with Botha injured is the only viable option. Donncha O'Callaghan knows his way round a rugby field and James Coughlan has been a Munster stalwart for at least the last three season. Admittely they're blooding a few younger guys due to restrictions, but that's no different to either Leinster or Ulster.

Is the Top 14 that much different? A lot of the sides that were put out midweek in France were far from full strength. Their excuse was fixture congestion, ours is play welfare schemes. Either way, none will have seen top fare this week so in my mind that's an invalid criticism.

 

[BasqueBete]

Not a bad Edinburgh team...

 

[psychic duck]

Well, it's far from a strong team, but you may be overstating the case a little there. Denis Hurley is a player with bags of European experience, as is Johne Murphy. It wouldn't particularly surprise me to see either (or both) of them in a Munster Heineken Cup XV. Keatley will be starting Munster 10 this year, so you can't complain there, Archer is Munster's second choice tighthead and with Botha injured is the only viable option. Donncha O'Callaghan knows his way round a rugby field and James Coughlan has been a Munster stalwart for at least the last three season. Admittely they're blooding a few younger guys due to restrictions, but that's no different to either Leinster or Ulster.

Is the Top 14 that much different? A lot of the sides that were put out midweek in France were far from full strength. Their excuse was fixture congestion, ours is play welfare schemes. Either way, none will have seen top fare this week so in my mind that's an invalid criticism.

You make a fair point and the Top 14 has problems also in my opinion. Home advantage overly advantageous. A crap team too many (Mont-de-Marsan for instance). Teams picking and choosing games to target. Fixture congestion caused by not playing in internationals, which ends up not making a difference either way with squad management. For these reasons it doesn't enthrall neutrals as much as it could, the league needs to make some changes to become a great league itself in my opinion.

Having said that though, the Top 14 having it's own problems doesn't change that the Pro12 isn't a great league and is devalued and hurt as an entertainment product by standards being lowered by the top players from the good teams missing. How often do you see two full strength teams against each other in the league?

 

[profitius]

How the hell can you promote the regular season Pro12 as a great league when sides like this are being put out? Laughable. How much of that would start a big Heineken Cup match with the the full team are back? Laulala plus Coughlan and Sherry maybe?

Thankfully for Munster, Edinburgh are not in a good place. That should be a pretty low standard game.

So your solution is to play your strongest side all the time like the French and English sides. Guess you didn't see the French lineups yesterday!

 

[BasqueBete]

Yes, coz they played three games in 8 days.....

Perhaps it's true what they say...

 

[psychic duck]

So your solution is to play your strongest side all the time like the French and English sides. Guess you didn't see the French lineups yesterday!

And I guess you didn't see the post directly above yours!

The French sides don't play their strongest side every game, however pointing out the faults of another league doesn't turn the Pro12 a great league.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Having said that though, the Top 14 having it's own problems doesn't change that the Pro12 isn't a great league and is devalued and hurt as an entertainment product by standards being lowered by the top players from the good teams missing. How often do you see two full strength teams against each other in the league?

I rate the Pro 12 highly. Despite this, there's a lot of truth to this statement. Winning it is as much a testament to squad depth and development as it is to having the best XV. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it will continue to be that way while the calendar has too many games in it. Last year between Pro 12, Heineken Cup and Amlin Cup, Leinster played 33 times. That's at least 7 games too many. Less games means less need to rest players for prolonged spells and better value for spectators.

 

[BasqueBete]

At end of day, what we have here is case of some quarters refusing to see the obvious...


At It will remain as such until the axe drops....and even then I doubt it sink in...

 

[BasqueBete]

Out of the woodwork...the rotting woodwork...

 

[Feicarsinn]

You make a fair point and the Top 14 has problems also in my opinion. Home advantage overly advantageous. A crap team too many (Mont-de-Marsan for instance). Teams picking and choosing games to target. Fixture congestion caused by not playing in internationals, which ends up not making a difference either way with squad management. For these reasons it doesn't enthrall neutrals as much as it could, the league needs to make some changes to become a great league itself in my opinion.

Having said that though, the Top 14 having it's own problems doesn't change that the Pro12 isn't a great league and is devalued and hurt as an entertainment product by standards being lowered by the top players from the good teams missing. How often do you see two full strength teams against each other in the league?

It's a problem endemic of professional rugby in the Northern Hemisphere to be honest. With the trials of a domestic season, a European campaign and a rake load of internationals all in the space of a few months it's very rare that any side can look to field its strongest fifteen more than a few times a season. The French do it by targeting games as you mentioned and it's a similar situation in the Celtic League. As ever, the good sides just have larger squads so the difference is less noticeable. For example, Sean Cronin coming in in place of Richardt Strauss isn't as big a drop off as Munster putting in Ivan Dineen for James Downey. If Leinster put out a side with Boss, Cronin, Ruddock and D'arcy in it one week and Reddan, Strauss, McLaughlin and McFadden the next you'd struggle to call either the definitive starting side.

I suppose that's where the difference between the Celtic League and the Top 14 is showing at the moment. A bigger budget means that the French teams can afford larger squads, and as such their rotations aren't as galling.

However, I don't think it's a fatal problem by any means, at least not for the Irish sides. We're churning out far more players of the required calibre than we were even 5 years ago and that will start to show in terms of depth and therefore quality of the league sides over the next few years. As an example, if you'd told me in 2007 that Munster, Ulster and Leinster would all have young Irish 10's starting for them, as well as Johnny Sexton, Ian Humphreys and Gareth Steenson playing regular top flight rugby abroad I'd have hardly believed you.

There's plenty of reason for optimism about the Celtic League. Connacht and Treviso are both on the way up, Ulster have emerged as a serious European force, Munster seem to have sorted their academy problems, Glasgow have been performing consistently well for the past few seasons now, there are new lucrative TV deals with Sky and with an Italian company and attendances have risen from 2011/12. Admittedly, there are large areas of concern, particularly the Welsh attitude to the league, but the situation isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

 

[profitius]

And I guess you didn't see the post directly above yours!

The French sides don't play their strongest side every game, however pointing out the faults of another league doesn't turn the Pro12 a great league.

The other day you said it was a crap league. You said teams should play their strongest teams more often, so how would you go about arranging that? Don't forget players can only play a certain amount of games per year. Actually players are probably playing too much already. I never said it was a great league. It has turned into a good league though with plenty of exciting games.


The Pro 12 is what it is. Squads are important and a bit of rotation is a good thing. My biggest problem with the league is refs reffing teams from their own country. Munster are missing most of their first choice team but I'm looking forward to seeing some of the new players like Cronin, Dave O'Callaghan, Hanrahan etc. Attendances and viewing figures were up again last season. Its a young league that is continuing to grow which looks positive to me.

 

[profitius]

It's a problem endemic of professional rugby in the Northern Hemisphere to be honest. With the trials of a domestic season, a European campaign and a rake load of internationals all in the space of a few months it's very rare that any side can look to field its strongest fifteen more than a few times a season. The French do it by targeting games as you mentioned and it's a similar situation in the Celtic League. As ever, the good sides just have larger squads so the difference is less noticeable. For example, Sean Cronin coming in in place of Richardt Strauss isn't as big a drop off as Munster putting in Ivan Dineen for James Downey. If Leinster put out a side with Boss, Cronin, Ruddock and D'arcy in it one week and Reddan, Strauss, McLaughlin and McFadden the next you'd struggle to call either the definitive starting side.

I suppose that's where the difference between the Celtic League and the Top 14 is showing at the moment. A bigger budget means that the French teams can afford larger squads, and as such their rotations aren't as galling.

However, I don't think it's a fatal problem by any means, at least not for the Irish sides. We're churning out far more players of the required calibre than we were even 5 years ago and that will start to show in terms of depth and therefore quality of the league sides over the next few years. As an example, if you'd told me in 2007 that Munster, Ulster and Leinster would all have young Irish 10's starting for them, as well as Johnny Sexton, Ian Humphreys and Gareth Steenson playing regular top flight rugby abroad I'd have hardly believed you.

There's plenty of reason for optimism about the Celtic League. Connacht and Treviso are both on the way up, Ulster have emerged as a serious European force, Munster seem to have sorted their academy problems, Glasgow have been performing consistently well for the past few seasons now, there are new lucrative TV deals with Sky and with an Italian company and attendances have risen from 2011/12. Admittedly, there are large areas of concern, particularly the Welsh attitude to the league, but the situation isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

Well said!

 

[psychic duck]

The other day you said it was a crap league. You said teams should play their strongest teams more often, so how would you go about arranging that? Don't forget players can only play a certain amount of games per year. Actually players are probably playing too much already. I never said it was a great league. It has turned into a good league though with plenty of exciting games.


The Pro 12 is what it is. Squads are important and a bit of rotation is a good thing. My biggest problem with the league is refs reffing teams from their own country. Munster are missing most of their first choice team but I'm looking forward to seeing some of the new players like Cronin, Dave O'Callaghan, Hanrahan etc. Attendances and viewing figures were up again last season. Its a young league that is continuing to grow which looks positive to me.

You don't read my posts properly. It's not the teams involved fault. Given the choice they would probably approach the matches with the options for them to most successful, Munster aren't "rotating" they pick this side as they have to. The unions involved don't treat the league this way and increase international periods for training camps and add player welfare programs. Good for the national teams, bad for the league as a competitive product. It renders the regular season more partly into a development league for the national sides. The league can be improved by the unions treating it better, it doesn't benefit the national teams but it would the league.

The Top 14 clubs don't tolerate so much disruption to their privately run investments and as a result have August games and midweek games, but by doing that they remain in control of what they are doing with their squads management through a larger percentage of the season. The competition keeps it integrity to a greater degree as a competitive league table where tactical selections are part of it although not ideal. The Pro12 doesn't however, with Leinster losing to an inferior Connacht side heavily isn't squad management, it's the IRFU taking a large amount of the squad, matches like these devalue the regular season. The Dragons beating a weakened Ospreys side during the internationals devalue the regular season. As a result the end of season prize is played in front of a quarter of what the English and French prize is, and the value of it is less with European success firmly prioritised.

And whilst the Irish and Scots are run by the unions who can do what they like with their teams in the end. The others aren't. The Ospreys are a privately run business, and provide a large amount of the national squad and the success of their investment and the business is infringed by the way the national union treat the league, and are unhappy at the way the compensation they get back (which is equal to the Dragons who take the **** by providing **** all for the national team). Treviso are in a similar situation of discontent. It's obviously harder to attract crowds when Cai Griffiths is starting as opposed to Adam Jones. Scottish, Welsh and Italian crowds are pretty low for the league (anybody see the figure for Dragons Zebre last season?) and Irish are easily down on the Heineken Cup crowds.

I would also argue the quality of the league is pretty low. Behind the top sides it drops off. In the Heineken Cup last year Scarlets lost all 6 matches and twice to a mid table English side, Glasgow weren't all that spexial, Cardiff Blues were on a par with Sale who were near the bottom of the Premiership, Edinburgh were thumped routinely, Connacht are improved but still nothing special and I haven't mentioned a certain two other awful sides, Zebre and the parasitic Dragons. There are at least 2 or 3 sides who would be relegated from the Premiership there. There are certain teams there who would be slaughtered by the Heineken Cup versions of Leinster and Ulster, but the good teams get dragged down a level.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The Top 14 clubs don't tolerate so much disruption to their privately run investments and as a result have August games and midweek games, but by doing that they remain in control of what they are doing with their squads management through a larger percentage of the season. The competition keeps it integrity to a greater degree as a competitive league table where tactical selections are part of it although not ideal. The Pro12 doesn't however, with Leinster losing to an inferior Connacht side heavily isn't squad management, it's the IRFU taking a large amount of the squad, matches like these devalue the regular season. The Dragons beating a weakened Ospreys side during the internationals devalue the regular season. As a result the end of season prize is played in front of a quarter of what the English and French prize is, and the value of it is less with European success firmly prioritised.

I'm going to dispute this bit. I believe that you're kinda misrepresenting the player management scheme. After the first few weeks of the season the squads have pretty much everyone back and it's the coach's discretion over who to use. Essentially if you have an international you're told you can play him x times during the first half of the season. For the Connacht game we simply got the balance wrong in terms of selection, but Healy, Ross, McFadden, Rob Kearney, D'arcy were all involved in the 23.

Connacht are trickier than you give them credit for at the Sportsground, especially for a derby.

 

[Amiga500]

How the hell can you promote the regular season Pro12 as a great league when sides like this are being put out? Laughable.

The Munster cupboard is that bare these days.

 

[Amiga500]

Good for the national teams, bad for the league as a competitive product.

Could you explain why this is necessarily the case from having player restrictions?

Do the 30 men that take to the pitch not all aim to win the game? Are most games not fairly evenly matched?

I would also argue the quality of the league is pretty low. Behind the top sides it drops off.

I think the league is stronger than it has ever been. This year, I reckon there are 6 or 7 sides with a real chance of making the playoffs.

Glasgow
Ospreys
Blues
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Treviso

Is that the case in the much vaunted Premiership? It'll be Leicester, Northampton, Harlequins and Saracens.

Or the even more hyped Top14? It has a 6-team play-off system... so 43% of the teams in the league are in the playoffs!

 

[welshglory]

My opinion:

PRO 12 is crap.

I'll be watching the Welsh regions to see how they get on, probably not the Dragons though... but that's about it.

It's mostly the Aviva and Top 14 for me.

 

[profitius]

Psychic duck, all you've done it talked about the negatives. How about all the drama, the intense matches, tries, new players being developed, bigger crowds, new tv deals etc. You've ignored all the positive things therefore your argument isn't very balanced.

My opinion:

PRO 12 is crap.

I'll be watching the Welsh regions to see how they get on, probably not the Dragons though... but that's about it.

It's mostly the Aviva and Top 14 for me.

Yourself and psychic duck will be watching the league no doubt. More Welsh than ever are watching the league. At the end of the day actions speak louder than words.