[2013 EOYT] Wales

[Ospreylian]

That tweet by Byrne really wasn't cool. Does he not remember, back in 2007, when he was completely out of favour with Gareth Jenkins and got overlooked for the WC (even though he was on fine form). But then Gatland selected him as soon as he took over and he had a magnificent run of games in the 2008 grand slam. Bit ungrateful tbh, when Gatland did him a favour at international level back then.

First choice is obviously Halfpenny, second is Liam Williams (who is in great form), 3rd is Hook (also in good form). Where does Byrne think he would fit into the squad ahead of three versatile (and in-form) players - 2 of which can play at either fullback or wing, and the other at fullback, centre or 10?

 

[Ospreylian]

On a completely unrelated note, there are 5 Williams' in this squad.... Does anyone know, is this a new record for number of Williams' in a Welsh squad?

Also, there are 3 Jones', 2 Davies' and 2 Phillips'.... *sigh* how original.

 

[psychic duck]

That tweet by Byrne really wasn't cool. Does he not remember, back in 2007, when he was completely out of favour with Gareth Jenkins and got overlooked for the WC (even though he was on fine form). But then Gatland selected him as soon as he took over and he had a magnificent run of games in the 2008 grand slam. Bit ungrateful tbh, when Gatland did him a favour at international level back then.

First choice is obviously Halfpenny, second is Liam Williams (who is in great form), 3rd is Hook (also in good form). Where does Byrne think he would fit into the squad ahead of three versatile (and in-form) players - 2 of which can play at either fullback or wing, and the other at fullback, centre or 10?

In fairness, there's nothing wrong or ungrateful with what Byrne said as he is absolutely right. It's pretty obvious isn't it that Gatland awards caps/squad places to youngsters who certainly aren't currently there on merit but on future.

There were a dozen wingers who had done a lot more worthy than Phillips or Prydie when they were called up, likewise in all those squads that Rhodri Jones has featured in the likes of Duncan Jones or even Eifion Roberts would have technically been better options. Rhodri still can't get past Phil John in the Scarlets team by the way.

 

[j'nuh]

In fairness, there's nothing wrong or ungrateful with what Byrne said as he is absolutely right. It's pretty obvious isn't it that Gatland awards caps/squad places to youngsters who certainly aren't currently there on merit but on future.

And rightfully so.

Any coach that doesn't plan for the future cannot be considered a top coach. Coaches (more in particular club coaches) should have a plan for up to 5 years from the present. If the WC rolls around and Byrne is playing well enough to warrant selection, then he can come back in at that point. He's seasoned and shouldn't take too long to get back into the swing of international rugby. But in the more likely event that at 35, he's gone off the boil like most fullbacks of that age would, and Liam Williams/James Hook is ahead of him, then those extra caps gained by those two will certainly be useful.

Whether Byrne even deserves a place in the set up based solely on merit is debatable. He isn't going to shift Halfpenny to the wing. He isn't going to replace Halfpenny out of choice. Even if Halfpenny is performing badly (unlikely, given he's been among the most consistent players in international rugby), he isn't going to go off because of his goal kicking duties. There's only one situation where Byrne gets on the field: Halfpenny gets injured. Hook, on the other hand, can replace 10, 12, 13 and Liam Williams can replace 11, 14, whether through injury or choice. As a potential 23, utility is worth merit.

All in all, it's arrogant of Byrne to believe he deserves a place in the squad ahead of others.

 

[psychic duck]

And rightfully so.

Any coach that doesn't plan for the future cannot be considered a top coach. Coaches (more in particular club coaches) should have a plan for up to 5 years from the present. If the WC rolls around and Byrne is playing well enough to warrant selection, then he can come back in at that point. He's seasoned and shouldn't take too long to get back into the swing of international rugby. But in the more likely event that at 35, he's gone off the boil like most fullbacks of that age would, and Liam Williams/James Hook is ahead of him, then those extra caps gained by those two will certainly be useful.

Whether Byrne even deserves a place in the set up based solely on merit is debatable. He isn't going to shift Halfpenny to the wing. He isn't going to replace Halfpenny out of choice. Even if Halfpenny is performing badly (unlikely, given he's been among the most consistent players in international rugby), he isn't going to go off because of his goal kicking duties. There's only one situation where Byrne gets on the field: Halfpenny gets injured. Hook, on the other hand, can replace 10, 12, 13 and Liam Williams can replace 11, 14, whether through injury or choice. As a potential 23, utility is worth merit.

All in all, it's arrogant of Byrne to believe he deserves a place in the squad ahead of others.

Disagree. In my view you just select the best team. Beating South Africa or Australia would be big, and beating Argentina.

I don't want to sacrifice a better player for a weaker one purely on some hypothetical game years away, that as we all know could likely come down to a referee call or luck with injuries anyway.

Putting Prydie or Rhodri Jones or K Phillips hardly did them much good at all anyway, Prydie's caps have done him no use but to get him more criticism. None of them earned their caps. I bet several nations would have ditched Brad Thorn aged 33 in 2008 and look what he did over the next years. Building for the RWC is one of the biggest cons of rugby, just plan for the immediate future of these games and the 6 Nations, especially since the chances of winning the RWC are minimal at best anyway.

I can see Byrne's point. But Cymro is right, he knew what he was doing leaving for France, and considering he would only be second choice and not in the team anyway it doesn't really matter.

Richie Rees is another who could use the same line of argument. Better form than Lloyd Williams certainly, who hopefully won't be in the 23.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

More I think about it, I would like to have seen Byrne involved and same for Richie Rees. Who to drop Byrne for is a tough call and the same for Rees as I do like Rhodri Williams and Lloyd (controversial I know, there's something about him that makes me feel he can deliver for Wales, he often does when he enters towards the game when the games broken up. He's not a real starter for Wales personally. But that's another matter).

 

[dullonien]

Disagree. In my view you just select the best team. Beating South Africa or Australia would be big, and beating Argentina.

I don't want to sacrifice a better player for a weaker one purely on some hypothetical game years away, that as we all know could likely come down to a referee call or luck with injuries anyway.

Putting Prydie or Rhodri Jones or K Phillips hardly did them much good at all anyway, Prydie's caps have done him no use but to get him more criticism. None of them earned their caps. I bet several nations would have ditched Brad Thorn aged 33 in 2008 and look what he did over the next years. Building for the RWC is one of the biggest cons of rugby, just plan for the immediate future of these games and the 6 Nations, especially since the chances of winning the RWC are minimal at best anyway.

I can see Byrne's point. But Cymro is right, he knew what he was doing leaving for France, and considering he would only be second choice and not in the team anyway it doesn't really matter.

Richie Rees is another who could use the same line of argument. Better form than Lloyd Williams certainly, who hopefully won't be in the 23.

There's a balance to be struck, and in Byrne's case Gatland has probably stuck it with this selection. We're not talking about another Prydie or Phillips in Liam Williams' case. He's got a few caps under his belt where he performed well, and imo is looking like a more rounded and grown-up player this season. As I said previously, I still think Byrne is a more complete player atm, but he will be 35 by the time the next WC rolls around, and for a back that's pushing things. It's more common for a second row such as Thorn to continue until 35-36, but very few backline players last that long. As we're not talking about a first choice player anyway, it makes perfect sense to pick the younger player.

More I think about it, I would like to have seen Byrne involved and same for Richie Rees. Who to drop Byrne for is a tough call and the same for Rees as I do like Rhodri Williams and Lloyd (controversial I know, there's something about him that makes me feel he can deliver for Wales, he often does when he enters towards the game when the games broken up. He's not a real starter for Wales personally. But that's another matter).

The problem I have with Lloyd Williams is that his box kicking is generally utter garbage. It's really put the Blues under pressure this season, and things only get worse at international level, especially against SA and Aus.

Edit. On an unrelated note, the new Welsh kit is very red..... I preferred the white shorts personally.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/toby-faletau-insists-wales-can-6230802

 

[psychic duck]

There's a balance to be struck, and in Byrne's case Gatland has probably stuck it with this selection. We're not talking about another Prydie or Phillips in Liam Williams' case. He's got a few caps under his belt where he performed well, and imo is looking like a more rounded and grown-up player this season. As I said previously, I still think Byrne is a more complete player atm, but he will be 35 by the time the next WC rolls around, and for a back that's pushing things. It's more common for a second row such as Thorn to continue until 35-36, but very few backline players last that long. As we're not talking about a first choice player anyway, it makes perfect sense to pick the younger player.

Agreed. If there was a big game vs SA and Halfpenny was injured I would pick Byrne to start. But if he's unlikely to actually play, give the benefit to Liam Williams who won't miss camps/games being in France.

I still maintain that many falsely give young players entitled selections wrongly though and that older players shouldn't be ditched if they are the best option for the upcoming game. I also think that Gatland's regime has been very guilty of this. Japan tour is the perfect example, they took it way too far. I also doubt that whether Dan Baker will be running out at RWC 2015 would have anything whatsoever to do with a cap in Japan either. The RWC is a lot to do with luck and not planning. What's the point of losing games in the present for something that can end on the basis of a red card tip tackle call and likely have no chance to win anyway?

 

[Draggs]

Never will understand why Dan Baker went over someone who played a decent amount of rugby this past season, such as Ieuan Jones. If it was due to u20s then Patchell wouldn't have gone to Japan either.

Wonder if Gatland will keep Williams on the wing as he did last year, or will Walker, an actual wing, start. Williams off the bench I'd say.

No Dafydd Howells?

 

[psychic duck]

Never will understand why Dan Baker went over someone who played a decent amount of rugby this past season, such as Ieuan Jones. If it was due to u20s then Patchell wouldn't have gone to Japan either.

Wonder if Gatland will keep Williams on the wing as he did last year, or will Walker, an actual wing, start. Williams off the bench I'd say.

No Dafydd Howells?

What is really odd is their apparent keenness to select the likes of Rhodri Jones who did nothing to merit his caps, yet refuse to select Samson Lee - who has shown promising improvements this season - in favour of dross like Scott Andrews and Aaron Jarvis. Lee didn't even go to Japan either.

 

[Ospreylian]

What is really odd is their apparent keenness to select the likes of Rhodri Jones who did nothing to merit his caps, yet refuse to select Samson Lee - who has shown promising improvements this season - in favour of dross like Scott Andrews and Aaron Jarvis. Lee didn't even go to Japan either.

Yeah, I really cannot understand why Lee isn't in that squad, especially with the season he's had so far. Him and Phil John, when they've played together, have dominated opposition scrums completely at times - they've both really taken to the new laws.

Is it because the coaches think Lee will be a disciplinary risk? Give away penalties or get yellow cards? Give the young fella' a break and a chance, I say

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/203795.html

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Damn, hope he's OK!

 

[dullonien]

Firstly, I hope it's nothing serious.

Secondly, please be fit for the AI's!

If he isn't, we've got no-one to replace him. Even switching Ryan Jones is kinda out of the question, considering he's in terrible form.

Personally, I'd play Warburton there, with Lydiate at 6 and Tips at 7. Actually the more I think about it, that could be none too shabby. Warbs is an explosive carrier of the ball, and quick enough to do damage off the back of the scrum. He's got experience of playing there from his U20 days too. It's not as if Faletau is a traditional bulldozing 8 anyway, so I think Warbs could fill in quite well.

Edit. Looks like he's fine:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-toby-faletau-given-6244150

 

[rugby_mad]

anyone feels Mike Philips deserves the sack... or not?

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

Hallam Amos, Tom Prydie, Rhodri Jones and Samson Lee all called up ahead of the Argentina game. Far as injuries go, looks like Jonathan Davies is out of all three games for certain, Eli Walker, Rhys Patchell and Adam Jones are expected to be as well. Liam Williams could return next week, but we're not sure, same on AWJ. Scott Andrews is fine, so whoopdy woo. Aaron Jarvis likely won't be back by next week either.

Next week, I'd like to see-

Jenkins, Hibbard, Lee, AWJ/Charteris, Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau; Phillips, Biggar/Priestland; Liam Williams/Amos/Prydie, Scott Williams, Owen Williams, North, Halfpenny
Owens, James, Andrews, Charteris/Coombs, Tipuric, Rhodri Williams, Hook, Beck

I thought Hook played well and probably deserves to stay in, but Owen Williams is a man we need to develop, as he's a proper 13 and could provide valuable, almost like-for-like back-up to Foxy. He's not as big, but he's quicker, and both have a good step and good hands. As for the wing, I think of the two new call-ups, Amos would be my preference, but considering the makeshift nature of the backline, it might be safer not chucking a debutant in. As for outside half, I had wanted to alternate Biggar and Priestland, meanign Dan would play this game, but with the stick Priestland's unfairly got, it might be an idea to leave him in. Samson Lee is the best tighthead available to us at the moment and should play, simple as.

 

[dullonien]

Hallam Amos, Tom Prydie, Rhodri Jones and Samson Lee all called up ahead of the Argentina game. Far as injuries go, looks like Jonathan Davies is out of all three games for certain, Eli Walker, Rhys Patchell and Adam Jones are expected to be as well. Liam Williams could return next week, but we're not sure, same on AWJ. Scott Andrews is fine, so whoopdy woo. Aaron Jarvis likely won't be back by next week either.

Next week, I'd like to see-

Jenkins, Hibbard, Lee, AWJ/Charteris, Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau; Phillips, Biggar/Priestland; Liam Williams/Amos/Prydie, Scott Williams, Owen Williams, North, Halfpenny
Owens, James, Andrews, Charteris/Coombs, Tipuric, Rhodri Williams, Hook, Beck

I thought Hook played well and probably deserves to stay in, but Owen Williams is a man we need to develop, as he's a proper 13 and could provide valuable, almost like-for-like back-up to Foxy. He's not as big, but he's quicker, and both have a good step and good hands. As for the wing, I think of the two new call-ups, Amos would be my preference, but considering the makeshift nature of the backline, it might be safer not chucking a debutant in. As for outside half, I had wanted to alternate Biggar and Priestland, meanign Dan would play this game, but with the stick Priestland's unfairly got, it might be an idea to leave him in. Samson Lee is the best tighthead available to us at the moment and should play, simple as.

Hook: I thought he was pretty poor. Struggled under the high ball, and messed up an opportunity late on. Certainly not a fullback.

Priestland: Again, pretty poor showing from him. Kicked poorly all afternoon, especially his little chip's over the top, which just presented ball to South Africa when we really needed to be going through the phases. Also didn't recognise on a couple of occasions that AWJ was on his own in midfield and to bypass him to the backline outside of him. All-in-all, not enough direction and control from Priestland, and when the backline outside of him had to be reshuffled, he needed to show more control, not less.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

Hook looked like he might unlock them, though, which nobody else did from the moment Davies went off. He's definitely not a fullback, just look at the Faletau high ball incident. I was thinking we could play him in the centre next week instead, which is a more natural position for him.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

After being at the game yesterday I got to say that Wales would be better served with Biggar or Hook at 10 rather than Priestland. Never has a fly half disappointed me as much. Biggar in theory should be given the shirt to have a go at. But would like to see Hook at 10.

I wouldn't consider Andrews on the bench for next week, if you have Jarvis / Lee then I would go with one of them.

I was quite disappointed with Beck yesterday, didn't think he had as good as a game as I have seen him have in the past. I would like to see Owen Williams play alongside Scott but wouldn't object to Hook or Beck to play. It's a pity that Henson is not about would have been an ideal time. If Magic Mike has the chances then Henson deserves another shot. An outside shot could be giving North a run on the wing. Interesting decisions to be made by our Warren.

Wales big problem is finding someone to get them over the gain line to get them this quick ball they desire. I dunno who will get them there at present.

 

[Bluemoon]

After being at the game yesterday I got to say that Wales would be better served with Biggar or Hook at 10 rather than Priestland. Never has a fly half disappointed me as much. Biggar in theory should be given the shirt to have a go at. But would like to see Hook at 10.

I wouldn't consider Andrews on the bench for next week, if you have Jarvis / Lee then I would go with one of them.

Agree on both counts. Andrews has been very poor for the Blues at the scrum all season. The last thing Wales need is being put under huge amounts of pressure by Argentina at scrum time.

I think Priestland will still start, despite his very questionable decision making in yesterdays game. Biggar is by far the man in form, but has had the luxury of powerful Osprey's pack in front of him.

I'm not a fan of Beck. He fits into the Ospreys system very well and can run a good angle at club level, but I'm not sure he's at this level yet. In fairness to him, Priestland's/the general game management didn't really give him much of chance yesterday.