[2013 EOYT] Wales

[psychic duck]

Jesus, if the Boks keep it up I dread to think what could happen.

Bear in mind they played at altitude and at home crowd. Those were their ideal conditions. They came from an altitude 60 point win over the Pumas into being forced to dig in to win the next week. If fit, hopefully the pack should be able to hold their own better than the Aussies as well, although I would say the Lions players have had a gentle start to the season form wise. Will be interesting to see how our key players are faring in the big games this next weekends, fingers crossed no key players get hurt.

 

[Draggs]

True, it was an amped up occasion, but they played at a quicker pace than I had seen from a Bok team.
We don't really have the players to counter a fast game. Australia, Ireland, Samoa, and Argentina played a quick tempo and beat us pretty well. Our key players (Lydiate, Warburton, a Phillips, Roberts) are all best in a slower more physical game.

 

[psychic duck]

True, it was an amped up occasion, but they played at a quicker pace than I had seen from a Bok team.
We don't really have the players to counter a fast game. Australia, Ireland, Samoa, and Argentina played a quick tempo and beat us pretty well. Our key players (Lydiate, Warburton, a Phillips, Roberts) are all best in a slower more physical game.

You can add Japan to that list as well. Problem is with that theory though, South Africa will almost certainly not look so fast in a game at sea level (less likely to break up), with less riding on it, having had to travel, and played in colder November British weather. The Lions/Boks matches at altitude in 2009 were pretty high pace, didn't mean the games were anything like that when they travelled to Ireland later in the year.

Also those games weren't all about pace either. They were about width. Wales' defence is worse when stretched, whilst the attack can be pretty one paced. They are a fit side under Gatland and can handle a side taking them on at a style like South Africa. The Samoa game is the exception due to Adam Jones being out and the scrum crumbling and several forwards getting injured.

 

[Draggs]

Yes, SA had a lot going into that game, so they were up for a game. I still think the Boks will play a different game than the dull product Div ordered. We can't expect our forward strength to count as much as against Aus, England, etc. Against Aus, Samoa and a few others, it wasn't a complete massacre, just a momentary lapse somewhere along the line. Two last minute losses against Aus, a dull first half v Ireland. Samoa was pretty much he only one where we were essentially uncompetitive for all 80. We looked dire against the Pumas, but still 'in it' until the second half.

I will throw the Japanese tests out, because honestly, apart from Biggar, who there is likely to play a large role? Owen Williams down the line, Craig/Scott for the time being. Lou Reed because Howley seems to like him. Hopefully none of the back row right now, although King could be a good bench option eventually. What we really need as well is a scrum half. Lloyd is pretty poor these days. Richie Rees?

 

[psychic duck]

Yes, SA had a lot going into that game, so they were up for a game. I still think the Boks will play a different game than the dull product Div ordered. We can't expect our forward strength to count as much as against Aus, England, etc. Against Aus, Samoa and a few others, it wasn't a complete massacre, just a momentary lapse somewhere along the line. Two last minute losses against Aus, a dull first half v Ireland. Samoa was pretty much he only one where we were essentially uncompetitive for all 80. We looked dire against the Pumas, but still 'in it' until the second half.

I will throw the Japanese tests out, because honestly, apart from Biggar, who there is likely to play a large role? Owen Williams down the line, Craig/Scott for the time being. Lou Reed because Howley seems to like him. Hopefully none of the back row right now, although King could be a good bench option eventually. What we really need as well is a scrum half. Lloyd is pretty poor these days. Richie Rees?

True about the players in Japan, but stylistically Wales were still playing Gatlandball and I felt Eddie Jones worked it out well, it wasn't his fault his players choked in the 1st Test.

I feel South Africa's style suits Wales' better than Australia, however it's useless making predictions until we see who's fit. I would be pretty confident of handling Argentina normally, but you never know if impostors like McCusker and Reed will find their way onto the pitch again.

I hear Richie Rees is playing well for the Dragons? And yes Lloyd is pretty poor.

 

[Draggs]

True, but they were players who really hadn't played in that system before. I wouldn't expect Spratt to be able to execute that gameplan, nor could McCusker or Pretorius offer the defencive skills of Lydiate, Faletau, et al.

Yeah, always liked Richie, no clue why the blues let him go. He has displaced Jonathan Evans for now.

 

[Ospreylian]

My squad:

Props: Jenkins, Bevington, A Jones, Lee, P James/P John, Jarvis
Hookers: Hibbard, Owens, Baldwin
Locks: AWJ, Evans, King, Ryan Jones
Flankers: Warburton, Lydiate, Tipuric, Navidi, Sam Lewis (has been great this season, needs some developing)
No.8: Faletau, Bearman/Morgan Allen

Scrum-half: L Williams, G Davies, Phillips
fly half: Biggar, Priestland, Patchell
Centres: S Williams, Davies, Beck, Bishop (this is assuming Roberts is unavailable)
Back three: Halfpenny, Cuthbert, North, Jordan Williams (I need to see what this guy can do in a Wales shirt), Hook (stands as fly-half, centre and fullback cover), Liam Williams

Starting squad for SA: Jenkins, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, Evans, Lydiate, Warbs, Faletau; L Williams, Biggar, North, S Williams, Davies, Cuthbert, Halfpenny
Bench: Bevington, Lee, Owens, R Jones, Tipuric, Phillips, Priestland, Hook/Liam Williams

Starting squad for Tonga (developing side): Bevington, Baldwin, Lee, R Jones, King, Sam Lewis, Navidi, Allen; G Davies, Patchell, J Williams, Beck, Bishop, Liam Williams, Hook

 

[Thingimubob]

Starting squad for Tonga (developing side): Bevington, Baldwin, Lee, R Jones, King, Sam Lewis, Navidi, Allen; G Davies, Patchell, J Williams, Beck, Bishop, Liam Williams, Hook

Slightly confused about this one in particular, where on earth is Eli Wales! You've left him out all together from what I can see! We'd be much better with Walker on the wing, and Williams (whichever) at full back. Not sure about Bishop over a younger option too. Always been a fan of Bishop, but would love to see one of Dixon, Allen, Shingler (admittedly more of a playmaker 12, rather than defensive bish bash bosh type) or Owen Williams in instead.

 

[Draggs]

My squad:

Props: Jenkins, Bevington, A Jones, Lee, P James/P John, Jarvis
Hookers: Hibbard, Owens, Baldwin
Locks: AWJ, Evans, King, Ryan Jones
Flankers: Warburton, Lydiate, Tipuric, Navidi, Sam Lewis (has been great this season, needs some developing)
No.8: Faletau, Bearman/Morgan Allen

Scrum-half: L Williams, G Davies, Phillips
fly half: Biggar, Priestland, Patchell
Centres: S Williams, Davies, Beck, Bishop (this is assuming Roberts is unavailable)
Back three: Halfpenny, Cuthbert, North, Jordan Williams (I need to see what this guy can do in a Wales shirt), Hook (stands as fly-half, centre and fullback cover), Liam Williams

Starting squad for SA: Jenkins, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, Evans, Lydiate, Warbs, Faletau; L Williams, Biggar, North, S Williams, Davies, Cuthbert, Halfpenny
Bench: Bevington, Lee, Owens, R Jones, Tipuric, Phillips, Priestland, Hook/Liam Williams

Starting squad for Tonga (developing side): Bevington, Baldwin, Lee, R Jones, King, Sam Lewis, Navidi, Allen; G Davies, Patchell, J Williams, Beck, Bishop, Liam Williams, Hook

oh yeah, we've already lost to Samoa and Fiji, let's add Tonga. Navidi is no whee near my squad. Start Owens at hooker if Hibbard starts the first few. Bevington should be either. Tipuric over Lewis, and I'd be tempted to bring in Jake Ball. He is better than Lou Reed and ever improving. Start one of Biggar and Priestland as well, give them both a shot. Bishop is pedestrian, I'd rather Owen Williams. Hook isn't an international fullback, I'd say Liam Williams at FB with Eli Wales starting. Also, Jordan Williams can't defend, he is lively in broken play, but not something that is ready for international rugby. I'd go with Robinson.

Honestly not sure if I'd start Dan Lydiate, he hasn't featured for Racing in a month, and not because of injury.

 

[psychic duck]

oh yeah, we've already lost to Samoa and Fiji, let's add Tonga. Navidi is no whee near my squad. Start Owens at hooker if Hibbard starts the first few. Bevington should be either. Tipuric over Lewis, and I'd be tempted to bring in Jake Ball. He is better than Lou Reed and ever improving. Start one of Biggar and Priestland as well, give them both a shot. Bishop is pedestrian, I'd rather Owen Williams. Hook isn't an international fullback, I'd say Liam Williams at FB with Eli Wales starting. Also, Jordan Williams can't defend, he is lively in broken play, but not something that is ready for international rugby. I'd go with Robinson.

Honestly not sure if I'd start Dan Lydiate, he hasn't featured for Racing in a month, and not because of injury.

Yes, those teams are a way off. Lloyd Williams starting a big test match? No thanks.

Fortunately the first round of H Cup had no major injuries. Ian Evans was the only injured player of the weekend to my knowledge, Charteris is returning now as well. This is the least injured November for a long while, albeit there's still plenty time for that change.

My team with Tonga starters in brackets:
1. James (Jenkins)
2. Hibbard (Owens)
3. Jones (Lee)
4. Jones
5. Evans (Charteris)
6. Warburton (Lydiate)
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Regrettably Phillips (R Williams)
10. Biggar (Priestland)
11. North (Walker)
12. Henson
13. Davies (S Williams)
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

 

[Draggs]

As much as I want to see Gavin, he hasn't established himself at Bath, playing around the backline. Perhaps Steven Shingler, unlucky not to be capped against Japan (or lucky, depending on which test).

Lloyd is dire. I'd start Richie Rees personally.

Glad to see Luke back, he adds so much in defence. Still remember his outstanding performances in RWC2011.

 

[psychic duck]

As much as I want to see Gavin, he hasn't established himself at Bath, playing around the backline. Perhaps Steven Shingler, unlucky not to be capped against Japan (or lucky, depending on which test).

Lloyd is dire. I'd start Richie Rees personally.

Glad to see Luke back, he adds so much in defence. Still remember his outstanding performances in RWC2011.

Hook never plays centre anymore, Beck isn't on the greatest run of form, Scott Williams/Davies as a combination won't work against top defences.

Charteris' return is timely with Ian Evans getting injured. Hopefully there are no more caps for Lou Reed this time.

 

[Draggs]

Steven Shingler? Plays centre, decent kicking, officially Welsh now.
Scott Williams is not a 12. I want Easterby to say that to himself in the mirror every morning.

Shame Dixon was injured, he was looking solid. Maybe Allen will have a few more good displays.

I like Jake Ball. Tough lad but not stupid discipline isn't an issue and a decent brain. Earle and Snyman were also decent signings, if only they could do the same at 8 (which Thomas says the Blues are after).

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

Props: Gtehin Jenkins, Paul James, Adam Jones, Samson Lee, Ryan Bevington
Hookers: Richard Hibbard, Ken Owens, Matthew Rees
Locks: Alun Wyn Jones, Luke Charteris, Andrew Coombs, James King, Ian Evans (If fit)
Flankers: Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Dan Lydiate, Josh Navidi, Aaron Shingler
No. 8s: Toby Faletau, Ryan Jones + maybe Morgan Allen

Scrum Halves: Mike Phillips, Richie Rees, Lloyd/Rhodri Williams
Fly Halves: Dan Biggar, Rhys Priestland + Rhys Patchell (Mostly just to train)
Utility backs: James Hook, Steve Shingler, Jordan Williams
Centres: Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley Beck, Owen Williams, Jamie Roberts (If fit)
Wingers: George North, Alex Cuthbert, Eli Walker
Fullbacks: Leigh Halfpenny, Liam Williams

Ryan Bevington has started the season poorly, but there's little point recalling Duncan or including Phil John for what is likely to be a bench spot against Tonga. So Bevs gets in.
I prefer Rhodri to Lloyd at the moment, but I can't see our current reserve 9 being dropped from the squad altogether, so it might be best keeping him in. Richie Rees, either way, should be on the bench.
Patchell and Jordan Williams should be in to train and get used to the systems for future campaigns. Williams' defence needs sorting, and who better than Shaun Edwards to do that? Look at the difference he made to the likes of North, Cuthbert and even Mark Jones and Shane. I'd like to see Jordan get a bit of a go against Tonga. Speaking of which...

XV v South Africa:
Halfpenny; Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts/Williams, North; Biggar, Phillips; Jenkins, Hibbard, Adam, AWJ, Evans/Charteris, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau
Owens, James, Lee, Ryan, Tipuric, Rees, Priestland, Walker

XV v Tonga:
Jordan Williams; Cuthbert, Davies, Beck, Walker; Priestland, Williams (Whichever); Jenkins, Hibbard, Lee, AWJ, Evans/Charteris, Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau
Owens, James, Adam, Coombs, Ryan, Rees, Hook, Liam Williams

 

[Ospreylian]

Slightly confused about this one in particular, where on earth is Eli Wales! You've left him out all together from what I can see! We'd be much better with Walker on the wing, and Williams (whichever) at full back. Not sure about Bishop over a younger option too. Always been a fan of Bishop, but would love to see one of Dixon, Allen, Shingler (admittedly more of a playmaker 12, rather than defensive bish bash bosh type) or Owen Williams in instead.

Yeah leaving Eli Wales out was a tough one, I love the guy. But, and maybe this is a bit too premature, Jordan Williams has been great so far this season (bar one game where his defence was pretty weak). Yeah Bishop was in the development side just for a bit of extra experience really, but I agree, I'd love to see Allen or Shingler in a Wales jersey at some point soon.

The side I picked for the Tonga match really was just an experiment, I don't expect a side like that to actually be picked after what has happened in the recent past against the pacific islanders. Having said that, I don't think a side like that shouldn't be picked for the worry that Wales will lose to Tonga. I would rather Wales field a very inexperienced team and lose a close game than field the first team and thrash them and it mean nothing. Birthing some of the youngsters at the top level is really important this close to the world cup, in case of injuries to our first team. If that means Wales lose against Tonga, so be it. It's just a friendly, so who cares?

Also, I know people are slating Lloyd Williams, but to be fair on him he is currently playing for a struggling team, where he is handed slow ball that isn't being protected at the breakdown. I've been quite impressed with him when he has played for Wales on the front foot. And, not many people have mentioned Gareth Davies. For me he is definitely the form Welsh scrum half atm, out of nowhere really.

 

[psychic duck]

Yeah leaving Eli Wales out was a tough one, I love the guy. But, and maybe this is a bit too premature, Jordan Williams has been great so far this season (bar one game where his defence was pretty weak). Yeah Bishop was in the development side just for a bit of extra experience really, but I agree, I'd love to see Allen or Shingler in a Wales jersey at some point soon.

The side I picked for the Tonga match really was just an experiment, I don't expect a side like that to actually be picked after what has happened in the recent past against the pacific islanders. Having said that, I don't think a side like that shouldn't be picked for the worry that Wales will lose to Tonga. I would rather Wales field a very inexperienced team and lose a close game than field the first team and thrash them and it mean nothing. Birthing some of the youngsters at the top level is really important this close to the world cup, in case of injuries to our first team. If that means Wales lose against Tonga, so be it. It's just a friendly, so who cares?

Also, I know people are slating Lloyd Williams, but to be fair on him he is currently playing for a struggling team, where he is handed slow ball that isn't being protected at the breakdown. I've been quite impressed with him when he has played for Wales on the front foot. And, not many people have mentioned Gareth Davies. For me he is definitely the form Welsh scrum half atm, out of nowhere really.

Lloyd Williams was poor in his last chance Japan. Knoyle clearly outplayed him. Scrum half options aren't great at the minute. Phillips often looks awful outside of the Welsh setup, but manages to just about keep his place based on previous and lack of options.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Knoyle has been playing really well for Gloucester, though playing outside of Wales will count against him - depends what Philips decides he wants to do, I guess.

 

[j'nuh]

He's only played 139 minutes this season though.

Turns out that when a 50+ cap All Black comes good, opportunities become a little limited.

 

[dullonien]

Just to highlight some players.

Bevington: been poor this season. I'd probably leave him out in favour of Gill.
Samson Lee: really taking to the new scrummaging laws. Unfortunate timing of his 2 week ban though.
Hibbard: appears to be struggling with the hooking role somewhat.
Matthew Rees: not sure he's done enough to be recalled ahead of a younger option.
Charteris: will be good to have him back.
James King: not a lock imo, too small. Better off battling it out with Shingler as our quick skilful blindside flanker.
Lloyd Peers: want to see more of him, but he hasn't had a look-in this season at the O's.
Ryan Jones: isn't an 8, should only be viewed as a blindside imo.
Josh Navidi: despite his defensive work rate, not been too impressed thus far this season. Sam Lewis ahead of him in my books.
Backup 8: no idea who this should be. Bearman is too old. Ieuan Jones too young/inexperienced. McCusker, Turnbull & Pretorius not 8's and not good enough. Morgan Allen & Dan Baker getting no game time. Copeland not Welsh.

Lloyd Williams: still flattering to deceive.
Rhodri Williams: looking promising, and I want to see him involved this Autumn.
Priestland: surprised by his return to form.
Ashley Beck: surprised by his lack of form.
Scott Williams: too many getting carried away by his try on the weekend. Still hasn't shown he can pass/make the right choices.
Owen Williams/Cory Allen: want to see one of them involved. Williams front runner atm.
Jordan Williams: phenomenal talent. Unfortunately can't tackle. It's whether he's left to develop at the Scarlets, or Gatland thinks he'd benefit from being involved in the squad and with Shaun Edwards.
Liam Williams: fair play, he's doing a lot right atm, including being of of the few Scarlets players to put his body on the line.

 

[psychic duck]

Just to highlight some players.

Bevington: been poor this season. I'd probably leave him out in favour of Gill.
Samson Lee: really taking to the new scrummaging laws. Unfortunate timing of his 2 week ban though.
Hibbard: appears to be struggling with the hooking role somewhat.
Matthew Rees: not sure he's done enough to be recalled ahead of a younger option.
Charteris: will be good to have him back.
James King: not a lock imo, too small. Better off battling it out with Shingler as our quick skilful blindside flanker.
Lloyd Peers: want to see more of him, but he hasn't had a look-in this season at the O's.
Ryan Jones: isn't an 8, should only be viewed as a blindside imo.
Josh Navidi: despite his defensive work rate, not been too impressed thus far this season. Sam Lewis ahead of him in my books.
Backup 8: no idea who this should be. Bearman is too old. Ieuan Jones too young/inexperienced. McCusker, Turnbull & Pretorius not 8's and not good enough. Morgan Allen & Dan Baker getting no game time. Copeland not Welsh.

Lloyd Williams: still flattering to deceive.
Rhodri Williams: looking promising, and I want to see him involved this Autumn.
Priestland: surprised by his return to form.
Ashley Beck: surprised by his lack of form.
Scott Williams: too many getting carried away by his try on the weekend. Still hasn't shown he can pass/make the right choices.
Owen Williams/Cory Allen: want to see one of them involved. Williams front runner atm.
Jordan Williams: phenomenal talent. Unfortunately can't tackle. It's whether he's left to develop at the Scarlets, or Gatland thinks he'd benefit from being involved in the squad and with Shaun Edwards.
Liam Williams: fair play, he's doing a lot right atm, including being of of the few Scarlets players to put his body on the line.

Matthew Rees got an interesting write up after his performance against Exeter last weekend.

By the way regarding the 8's, I agree Ryan has developed into a 6/4 than than 6/8 he used to be. But if we're going to play a 6 at 8 if Faletau's injured I'd much rather it be Ryan than McCusker, Pretorius etc.