2003 - It's all about St Jonny

[Kiwiwomble]

Dan Carter "Wilkinson was the toughest opponent o ever played against,he had everything and without him to measure myself against early in my career I wouldn't have developed as I did"

Random new poster "Wilkinson was a soft defender, poor distributor who lacked vision, all he did was kick, and anyone can kick - barely international quality"

Yeah...but what would DC know about being an international 10....

 

[Broms]

Pleased to have your replies. Sorry if I sounded aggressive about Wilkinson, didn't mean to be. Probably best though,not to make assumptions about posters' experience and/or knowledge of the game when considering comments made. Comments, not the posters should be read and responded to. But since you've made reference to it, I've played both Rugby Union and League, across many seasons and watched northern and southern hemisphere Union and League since the 1970s. I've seen many greats, in all positions in Union and League. It's always fun to make lists of the greatest players, teams, moments, etc. In picking the best players in a position, the only way to do it across generations of players, is, I think, to list all the skills of the position and rate each player comparatively. You do have to put national pride and conventional wisdoms aside. On that basis, and applying the very useful 'highlights reel test' (think Maradona in football) Jonny Wilkinson would rate as a average, in international terms.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pleased to have your replies. Sorry if I sounded aggressive about Wilkinson, didn't mean to be. Probably best though,not to make assumptions about posters' experience and/or knowledge of the game when considering comments made. Comments, not the posters should be read and responded to. But since you've made reference to it, I've played both Rugby Union and League, across many seasons and watched northern and southern hemisphere Union and League since the 1970s. I've seen many greats, in all positions in Union and League. It's always fun to make lists of the greatest players, teams, moments, etc. In picking the best players in a position, the only way to do it across generations of players, is, I think, to list all the skills of the position and rate each player comparatively. You do have to put national pride and conventional wisdoms aside. On that basis, and applying the very useful 'highlights reel test' (think Maradona in football) Jonny Wilkinson would rate as a average, in international terms.

No one has made any assumptions about you? We just think it's an awful take. The post was brash, I personally don't mind that at all but if you're off the mark it'll likely be met with derision.

I don't agree with you re the 'highlight reel test' with JW, he's got a few very good clips on yt that are far more than just kicking. Also you could easily make the argument that Lionel Beauxis or Danny Cipriani were better than the likes of Sexton or Jones with the same test.

 

[Goodey]

I don't agree with you re the 'highlight reel test' with JW, he's got a few very good clips on yt that are far more than just kicking. Also you could easily make the argument that Lionel Beauxis or Danny Cipriani were better than the likes of Sexton or Jones with the same test.

Bauxis in particular has some very loving highlight reels.


He also has this

 

[Kiwiwomble]

No one has made any assumptions about you? We just think it's an awful take. The post was brash, I personally don't mind that at all but if you're off the mark it'll likely be met with derision.

I don't agree with you re the 'highlight reel test' with JW, he's got a few very good clips on yt that are far more than just kicking. Also you could easily make the argument that Lionel Beauxis or Danny Cipriani were better than the likes of Sexton or Jones with the same test.

I think DC is the best ever...he thinks JW is one of the best and made him who he was...that's enough for me, JW is one of the best ever

 

[Broms]

I'd probably best describe JW as a safe pair of hands as a flyhalf, not ever breaking a game open but not making many mistakes. In his earlier days he really was a poor defender, getting skittled quite regularly though he did work on that part of his game and it vastly improved in his later years. His longevity in England colours probably reflects English coaching and selection values at that time. Flyhalves were not picked for flair, elusive running or tackle busting. Remember Stuart Barnes, an attacking F/H, never gaining favour over Rob Andrew, a plodding but dependable F/H. Wilkinson was just a continuation of the preference for that type of player. Back to the recent past, that's what set Carter apart, his reliability in the core skills but also his great individual skills. If your F/H is not also a dangerous attacker, your team is much easier to defend against. Look at England's fairly meagre try scoring record in the Wilkinson (and Andrew) years against the better opposition. Wins were often due to points from goal kicks. (to me, like Trump winning in 2016 without getting most votes)
The more options you have in all positions (15 man rugby as it used to be called) the more successful the team. That just about describes the ABs over many years.
So, Wilkinson: reliable, competent, yes. Greatest F/H, no, not on any comparative measure.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I'd probably best describe JW as a safe pair of hands as a flyhalf, not ever breaking a game open but not making many mistakes. In his earlier days he really was a poor defender, getting skittled quite regularly though he did work on that part of his game and it vastly improved in his later years. His longevity in England colours probably reflects English coaching and selection values at that time. Flyhalves were not picked for flair, elusive running or tackle busting. Remember Stuart Barnes, an attacking F/H, never gaining favour over Rob Andrew, a plodding but dependable F/H. Wilkinson was just a continuation of the preference for that type of player. Back to the recent past, that's what set Carter apart, his reliability in the core skills but also his great individual skills. If your F/H is not also a dangerous attacker, your team is much easier to defend against. Look at England's fairly meagre try scoring record in the Wilkinson (and Andrew) years against the better opposition. Wins were often due to points from goal kicks. (to me, like Trump winning in 2016 without getting most votes)
The more options you have in all positions (15 man rugby as it used to be called) the more successful the team. That just about describes the ABs over many years.
So, Wilkinson: reliable, competent, yes. Greatest F/H, no, not on any comparative measure IMHO

FIFY

 

[Broms]

FIFY

Of course!
ILY

 

[Rinkadink]

I mean...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I mean...

That's the main stream meadia for ya, theyre happy to fake anything

 

[Leinster Fan]

'Wilkinson was a poor defender' might be one of the worst takes I've seen on this (or any) forum.

Also not really buying into the highlight reel thing, by that standard Sean O'Brien was probably better than McCaw (and I love him but he wasn't). By that standard Danny Cipriani is probably the best NH outhalf of the last 10 years and Beauden is the best 10 ever.

Surely at worst Wilkinson is the second best 10 of the pro era, I wouldn't say he's better than Carter but that's with the caveat that he missed what should have been his peak through injury. Could be a very different discussion if he'd been fit (although probably not because England were utter pants for those years anyway, not a slight on JW but hard to know how much he could have done for his reputation in that team).

 

[Kiwiwomble]

His reputation, while huge in England, is pretty much absent in other Rugby countries because he really wasn't a threat at the highest level.

shows you I didn't even finish reading the post, missed this bit, I have absolute faith if you asked a kiwi fan to name a foreign rugby player he would be one of the first names listed and even more like if you asked name a foreign 10

this is just a bit silly, you must be trolling

 

[ncurd]

'Wilkinson was a poor defender' might be one of the worst takes I've seen on this (or any) forum.

Admittedly I missed this on the original reply and just went ah "I can't be arsed its an opinion" but its the usual he only kicks and defends ******** I was reading 17 years ago. But this, its not like the English have a mental problem everytime they try a new fly half and they show even the slightest defensive frailty because of St. Johnny. You can stick a lot caveats on whether Wilko was the best overall fly half but on defense I'll quite happily categorically state he's the best of all time (currently) and litreally rewrote the book on what it defending from that position.

Wins were often due to points from goal kicks

You really need to go watch a whole bunch 2002-3 era England again and not just the highlight reels. The point came from penalties, penalties that were caused by being in good attacking positions usually orchestrated from fly half (as these things are). England's reputation wasn't scoring from kicks was because they were one of the first teams to show absolute pragmatism working out they were far more likely to score from taking the points than going for glory kicking it to the corner. 17 years on and all teams do it and having a high percentage kicker is vital to any teams success. Few games are won by not kicking your points and even this weekend shows the mess you can get if you kicker is having an off day. England got called boring for always taking the points not because they weren't capable of scintillating play. Thats not a defense of Wilkinson just a 'they only score from goal kicks' was tired cliche back in 2003 let alone now.

 

[Broms]

Of course, I'm just giving an opinion, as everyone is. It isn't a science. The idea of the 'highlights reel test' was not about going off to play youtube clips. We could all look like worldbeaters if you leave out the howlers! I meant to put together your own memories of those moments, over time, where you've actually seen, live or on tv, the player turn a match or perform a piece of brilliance in their position, from open or set plays, that sets them apart. Think of just a few of the best F/Hs around JWs time, Davies, Carter, Larkham, Mertens. What about a little earlier- B. John, Bennett, Ella. JW was dependable, solid, not very quick but a good link and distributor. But, having seen him play many, many matches I just can't recall the moments where he did things to put him in the company of those players. Everyone's favourite player, especially the greatest, has those moments when you say, 'remember when he .....' . So yes, when I hear people talk about how he was the best, or even great, I don't also hear them say what things he ever, let alone regularly, did as a F/H to make them think that. IMHO.

 

[McTallshort]

Of course, I'm just giving an opinion, as everyone is. It isn't a science. The idea of the 'highlights reel test' was not about going off to play youtube clips. We could all look like worldbeaters if you leave out the howlers! I meant to put together your own memories of those moments, over time, where you've actually seen, live or on tv, the player turn a match or perform a piece of brilliance in their position, from open or set plays, that sets them apart. Think of just a few of the best F/Hs around JWs time, Davies, Carter, Larkham, Mertens. What about a little earlier- B. John, Bennett, Ella. JW was dependable, solid, not very quick but a good link and distributor. But, having seen him play many, many matches I just can't recall the moments where he did things to put him in the company of those players. Everyone's favourite player, especially the greatest, has those moments when you say, 'remember when he .....' . So yes, when I hear people talk about how he was the best, or even great, I don't also hear them say what things he ever, let alone regularly, did as a F/H to make them think that. IMHO.

good job you were never an England selector.

 

[McTallshort]

I mean...

Yeah after watching that I agree with the bitter Welshman, he was ****....

 

[Broms]

Neither bitter, nor Welsh since you're wondering. Not saying I wouldn't have selected JW for England at the time because there was a dearth of talent in that position. He would of course have looked a lot stronger if he had a quality back line outside him but virtuoso backs, particularly centres and fullbacks, have been in short supply in England teams for years. May, of the current squad, qualifies as world class and Youngs possibly also but between those positions, not much.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He would of course have looked a lot stronger if he had a quality back line outside him

 

[McTallshort]

Neither bitter, nor Welsh since you're wondering. Not saying I wouldn't have selected JW for England at the time because there was a dearth of talent in that position. He would of course have looked a lot stronger if he had a quality back line outside him but virtuoso backs, particularly centres and fullbacks, have been in short supply in England teams for years. May, of the current squad, qualifies as world class and Youngs possibly also but between those positions, not much.

Yeah, Robinson, Cohan, Greenwood, Lewsey all proper ****