The Jones Boy
First XV
It's been a long tough year of rugby when you factor in the S18 games.
Its been the same for the Aussies and the saffers too.
Its been the same for the Aussies and the saffers too.
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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] France vs. New Zealand (26/11/2016)
- Thread starter TRF_heineken
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NZ were there for the taking. They looked tired. But they still controlled the game all the same.
The French players stayed in camp during all the AI away from club and league which is unprecedented. They were fresh. This is as good as it's going to get though.
Come the 6N they will have played another 6 rounds of Top 14 + a few euro games. They will be in a quite different physical and mental form. 3 games away will be hard to manage and no doubt they'll be brought back down to earth next February. All the nations are looking very competitive. Even a rejuvenated Italy under OShea and buoyed by their win over the Boks will be competitive.
In the right environment, with Noves as master motivator and an extended professional staff, we should be vying for the world Top 3. I have no doubt about it. The union has ruined the national team with its politics. The next FFR president who will be elected next weekend will have a huge rebuilding task ahead. This is where the real rebuilding is.
If the current shower of cockroaches at the FFr's exec comittee (Camous Blanco Dunyach etc) are re-elected it'll be the final nail in les bleus coffin. If however they are booted out and the necessary reforms are introduced, there is a glimmer of hope for the national team.
The French players stayed in camp during all the AI away from club and league which is unprecedented. They were fresh. This is as good as it's going to get though.
Come the 6N they will have played another 6 rounds of Top 14 + a few euro games. They will be in a quite different physical and mental form. 3 games away will be hard to manage and no doubt they'll be brought back down to earth next February. All the nations are looking very competitive. Even a rejuvenated Italy under OShea and buoyed by their win over the Boks will be competitive.
In the right environment, with Noves as master motivator and an extended professional staff, we should be vying for the world Top 3. I have no doubt about it. The union has ruined the national team with its politics. The next FFR president who will be elected next weekend will have a huge rebuilding task ahead. This is where the real rebuilding is.
If the current shower of cockroaches at the FFr's exec comittee (Camous Blanco Dunyach etc) are re-elected it'll be the final nail in les bleus coffin. If however they are booted out and the necessary reforms are introduced, there is a glimmer of hope for the national team.
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tough game, ABs defense and ability to turn small gaps and chances into trys from anywhere won again.
the kicking game was a result of our forwards just being too tired, with them struggling to make the gain line and the french pressuring the rucks it was better to get them running onto some kicks.
This was a spent All Black side. arguably the toughest and longest season we have had, remembering that 3 NZ teams made the super rugby finals and the NZ conference games were brutal and close this year..
But critically as I said before the selectors stuck with our top side right through the June series and Rugby Championship really only making injury changes and it wore heavily on our key players. Fatigue was a huge factor on the EoY tour it did affect us a lot and I think it will affect us next year as well. I look at 2008 which was a great year for the AB's but we played the same team week on week and in 2009 the majority of that team suffered major form and injury issues during super rugby and early-mid test season - only just came good on the end of year tour.
look at players like Read, Ben Smith, Kainno, Retalick, Whitelock, Coles, Crotty, Owen Franks, Barrett etc. they are spent forces right now. To a lesser extent Dagg, ALB, Moody, Squire and Cane too. Actually ALB at 22? looks spent to me as well. the massive injury toll we have had in midfield has put a huge amount of responsibility on him in his rookie year, a lot more than you would expect. Rookie All Blacks usually get a fairly controlled introduction to test rugby and get well protected. ALB has been thrown in the fire in comparison.
NZRU needs to to to the super rugby teams now and work out a plan to rest these guys. a lot of these players need an extra month or more rest from the beginning of super rugby and effective plans to rest and get them back in shape.
On the game itself. I have a few key points to take from it.
#1 ALB was insane on defense, go back and watch some of the work he does, tackles he makes he left everything on that field. By the end of the game he looked like he could hardly walk. Anyone who had question marks about his ability to defend should now be satisfied.
Ioane looked good to me, he got a bit of game time and didn't look out of place. I think just having his fresh legs on the field made him stand out a bit.
Naholo's defense actually surprised me as well. He got caught out a couple of times but showed serious speed to fix it and a couple of times he showed he can cover multiple attackers under pressure well. He made some key tackles around the park and even got over to Savea's wing to make a critical tackle.
That brings me to Saveas defense. He is woeful and often looks all at sea, some if the aerial camera shots really made savea look bad and unlike Naholo he lacks the speed and agility to scramble. Hes ok when its one on one and someone runs straight at him but pretty much everywhere else he struggles seriously. There were a few times he got pressured and caught out on defense and it was actually Dane Coles who came out and made the tackles & cleaned (yes holy crap Coles is a seriously good tackler) up for Savea. Its interesting to see how slow Savea is the best examples I can see are when the All Blacks make linebreaks Savea will start on the shoulder and eventually be completely left behind to the point he is too far back to support. And he doesn't go hunting for work like we see most NZ wingers. Naholo shows up everywhere.
Wasn't all bad from him, he did come up with a good catch and pass for the first try. Still rate him the lowest AB performance of the day, with Crotty who had a rough one and went off with a head knock...
the kicking game was a result of our forwards just being too tired, with them struggling to make the gain line and the french pressuring the rucks it was better to get them running onto some kicks.
This was a spent All Black side. arguably the toughest and longest season we have had, remembering that 3 NZ teams made the super rugby finals and the NZ conference games were brutal and close this year..
But critically as I said before the selectors stuck with our top side right through the June series and Rugby Championship really only making injury changes and it wore heavily on our key players. Fatigue was a huge factor on the EoY tour it did affect us a lot and I think it will affect us next year as well. I look at 2008 which was a great year for the AB's but we played the same team week on week and in 2009 the majority of that team suffered major form and injury issues during super rugby and early-mid test season - only just came good on the end of year tour.
look at players like Read, Ben Smith, Kainno, Retalick, Whitelock, Coles, Crotty, Owen Franks, Barrett etc. they are spent forces right now. To a lesser extent Dagg, ALB, Moody, Squire and Cane too. Actually ALB at 22? looks spent to me as well. the massive injury toll we have had in midfield has put a huge amount of responsibility on him in his rookie year, a lot more than you would expect. Rookie All Blacks usually get a fairly controlled introduction to test rugby and get well protected. ALB has been thrown in the fire in comparison.
NZRU needs to to to the super rugby teams now and work out a plan to rest these guys. a lot of these players need an extra month or more rest from the beginning of super rugby and effective plans to rest and get them back in shape.
On the game itself. I have a few key points to take from it.
#1 ALB was insane on defense, go back and watch some of the work he does, tackles he makes he left everything on that field. By the end of the game he looked like he could hardly walk. Anyone who had question marks about his ability to defend should now be satisfied.
Ioane looked good to me, he got a bit of game time and didn't look out of place. I think just having his fresh legs on the field made him stand out a bit.
Naholo's defense actually surprised me as well. He got caught out a couple of times but showed serious speed to fix it and a couple of times he showed he can cover multiple attackers under pressure well. He made some key tackles around the park and even got over to Savea's wing to make a critical tackle.
That brings me to Saveas defense. He is woeful and often looks all at sea, some if the aerial camera shots really made savea look bad and unlike Naholo he lacks the speed and agility to scramble. Hes ok when its one on one and someone runs straight at him but pretty much everywhere else he struggles seriously. There were a few times he got pressured and caught out on defense and it was actually Dane Coles who came out and made the tackles & cleaned (yes holy crap Coles is a seriously good tackler) up for Savea. Its interesting to see how slow Savea is the best examples I can see are when the All Blacks make linebreaks Savea will start on the shoulder and eventually be completely left behind to the point he is too far back to support. And he doesn't go hunting for work like we see most NZ wingers. Naholo shows up everywhere.
Wasn't all bad from him, he did come up with a good catch and pass for the first try. Still rate him the lowest AB performance of the day, with Crotty who had a rough one and went off with a head knock...
Shaggy
First XV
I enjoyed this match, it was good old tussle, and the ABs did well to come out the victors.
I'm pleased we were able to successfully blood some new players this year, and I'm sure we'll be stronger for it in the comming seasons.
Kicking makes sense to counter the rushed defense, but I cant understand why there wasn't a it more variation, given the number of good runners in the back line, we could have utilized them some more.
I'm hoping we didn't want to show too much before the Lions tour, but i guess well have time to develop a few moves and tactics as the playing personnel get more accustomed to playing along side each other
I'm pleased we were able to successfully blood some new players this year, and I'm sure we'll be stronger for it in the comming seasons.
Kicking makes sense to counter the rushed defense, but I cant understand why there wasn't a it more variation, given the number of good runners in the back line, we could have utilized them some more.
I'm hoping we didn't want to show too much before the Lions tour, but i guess well have time to develop a few moves and tactics as the playing personnel get more accustomed to playing along side each other
After thinking about the game for a while.
Was really impressed with the French, they threw the ball and played quick 1 off around the ruck and exploited the width of the field really well, best I have seen the french play for a while.
The kicking of so much ball by the AB's doesn't concern me if it is a tactic that is working, but when it stops been effective or is being read to often we need to adjust, the French broke us around the fringes and out wide surely we can do it as well.
The AB's did look tired and all the SH teams have have a big load this year, but we have the depth to cover it and sometime I feel we need faith in more junior players, look at ALB.
The team has had a good season and can enjoy a well deserved break.
Was really impressed with the French, they threw the ball and played quick 1 off around the ruck and exploited the width of the field really well, best I have seen the french play for a while.
The kicking of so much ball by the AB's doesn't concern me if it is a tactic that is working, but when it stops been effective or is being read to often we need to adjust, the French broke us around the fringes and out wide surely we can do it as well.
The AB's did look tired and all the SH teams have have a big load this year, but we have the depth to cover it and sometime I feel we need faith in more junior players, look at ALB.
The team has had a good season and can enjoy a well deserved break.
Five Meters Out
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The French played like the French should play and could have won it for that reason. Problem for them is they don't always play like the French. Play with flair France - it's what you're best at.
Nubiwan
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France brought all the desire, punch and entertainment, and new zealand the tries. Just about sums it up for me. If NZ don't get turn over ball in the first 5 minutes of each half, then France win. It is so typical of the ABs.
I thought the ref rubbish in the first half. I think the pace of that game was beyond Wayne Barnes ability, which is probably English premier league level, to be fair to him.
Ironically, my interest 'waned' when Barrett ran it in from 95 metres. I thought the ABs would begin to rack it up on the scoreboard, and I have little interest in either side, to be fair. I bet barrett would give many wingers a run for their money.
the ABs being held to 10 point wins in games against north hemi sides. Does it mean anything? If France finished their chances, or convert their territory and posession, then they'd have walked it. Certainly in what I watched. You just cannot give the ABs a sniff.
I thought the ref rubbish in the first half. I think the pace of that game was beyond Wayne Barnes ability, which is probably English premier league level, to be fair to him.
Ironically, my interest 'waned' when Barrett ran it in from 95 metres. I thought the ABs would begin to rack it up on the scoreboard, and I have little interest in either side, to be fair. I bet barrett would give many wingers a run for their money.
the ABs being held to 10 point wins in games against north hemi sides. Does it mean anything? If France finished their chances, or convert their territory and posession, then they'd have walked it. Certainly in what I watched. You just cannot give the ABs a sniff.
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I think you will find that kiwis aren't too concerned by the loss to Ireland or the close game with France. in terms of "OMG the gap is gone!" When France turn it on and have a big game its just important to get 1 point or more than they do, next time we play we could beat them by 20+ again.
But for me and I think generally anyone who has watched the All Blacks all year will say the same thing...
Our players looked seriously exhausted and well below their best on this EoY tour.
And my general feeling is that we still managed to beat very strong Ireland and France teams away despite being well below our best.
3 main factors for this and why it was more of an issue than normal.
1. NZ sides were very strong in super rugby, we had 5 genuinely strong sides arguably the strongest and most evenly contested ever, the matches between them were brutal and highly competitive and often test match like intensity. 3 NZ teams made the finals so most of our top players had extra games.
2. Argentina being added to the tri nations has increased the travel miles the players accumulate and has become a factor for the last few years.
3. The selectors stuck with almost the same side right through the June series and rugby championship and only really made changes when forced by injury. The end of the Rugby Championship and the 3rd test against Aussie was the tipping point. Multiple injuries and a noticeable drop in form for many players resulted in a really makeshift side in Chicago where we suffered more injuries.
my concerns are:
- That some key players are going to experience a "hangover" from the massive workloads they have carried this year. I see potential issues with ~18 players but the main concerns are. Read, Ben Smith, Crotty, Retalick, Whitelock, Coles and Franks plus Cane too even though he did get a couple of games off with concussion I don't think that really counts too much... I would actually throw ALB in there as well as he shouldered a massive workload and responsibility in his rookie year.
- That the coaches and selectors don't learn from whats been happening. Player management has been poor and performance and results has suffered.
I think Hansen and co should be going to the super rugby teams and organizing extra leave for these guys to allow them to have a proper off season and have plans for them to rest & recover effectively and recondition for next year. Its clear we needed more rotation, I would like to see a better selection strategy which included selecting players that are better matched against particular opposition or better suit a game plan that will be used.
But for me and I think generally anyone who has watched the All Blacks all year will say the same thing...
Our players looked seriously exhausted and well below their best on this EoY tour.
And my general feeling is that we still managed to beat very strong Ireland and France teams away despite being well below our best.
3 main factors for this and why it was more of an issue than normal.
1. NZ sides were very strong in super rugby, we had 5 genuinely strong sides arguably the strongest and most evenly contested ever, the matches between them were brutal and highly competitive and often test match like intensity. 3 NZ teams made the finals so most of our top players had extra games.
2. Argentina being added to the tri nations has increased the travel miles the players accumulate and has become a factor for the last few years.
3. The selectors stuck with almost the same side right through the June series and rugby championship and only really made changes when forced by injury. The end of the Rugby Championship and the 3rd test against Aussie was the tipping point. Multiple injuries and a noticeable drop in form for many players resulted in a really makeshift side in Chicago where we suffered more injuries.
my concerns are:
- That some key players are going to experience a "hangover" from the massive workloads they have carried this year. I see potential issues with ~18 players but the main concerns are. Read, Ben Smith, Crotty, Retalick, Whitelock, Coles and Franks plus Cane too even though he did get a couple of games off with concussion I don't think that really counts too much... I would actually throw ALB in there as well as he shouldered a massive workload and responsibility in his rookie year.
- That the coaches and selectors don't learn from whats been happening. Player management has been poor and performance and results has suffered.
I think Hansen and co should be going to the super rugby teams and organizing extra leave for these guys to allow them to have a proper off season and have plans for them to rest & recover effectively and recondition for next year. Its clear we needed more rotation, I would like to see a better selection strategy which included selecting players that are better matched against particular opposition or better suit a game plan that will be used.
Adakins
Academy Player
I'm not much of a thinker of the game, I just love to watch the game, but do you think Hansen and co wanted to try and get some consistency with our newer combinations and give them a chance to work before we try anything against the Lions?
I know the workload was crazy and you could tell the style of play was affected, but maybe Hansen does have a plan to meet up with the team see where they are on their recovery plans and if not where he likes go to the Super Teams and say hey give them a bit longer break, I honestly don't think many in the NZ rugby would object to that.
I know the workload was crazy and you could tell the style of play was affected, but maybe Hansen does have a plan to meet up with the team see where they are on their recovery plans and if not where he likes go to the Super Teams and say hey give them a bit longer break, I honestly don't think many in the NZ rugby would object to that.
@Larksea I hear ya.
Also.
Did you hear there is an All Black training camp in January, before the Super Rugby kicks off?
Sounds like Sonny Bill should be back in time for that as well. A welcomed addition. A lot of rugby for the guys though. I think 2017/2018 we should really lighten the load for the RWC and give the extended squad more games.
I am a little concerned with our forwards, I think we're a bit light in the backrow and particularly the front row. A couple of injuries and we're struggling to compete. It'd be good to win more ball at the breakdown as well. We've got the physicality, but we haven't got the size. It always looks a struggle for us to keep the ball at the breakdown and we have virtually no chance against sides like Ireland to ever counter ruck (doesn't help they hold on all day and the ref does nothing about it).
Also.
Did you hear there is an All Black training camp in January, before the Super Rugby kicks off?
Sounds like Sonny Bill should be back in time for that as well. A welcomed addition. A lot of rugby for the guys though. I think 2017/2018 we should really lighten the load for the RWC and give the extended squad more games.
I am a little concerned with our forwards, I think we're a bit light in the backrow and particularly the front row. A couple of injuries and we're struggling to compete. It'd be good to win more ball at the breakdown as well. We've got the physicality, but we haven't got the size. It always looks a struggle for us to keep the ball at the breakdown and we have virtually no chance against sides like Ireland to ever counter ruck (doesn't help they hold on all day and the ref does nothing about it).
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yes this is true in some areas. It was clearly a plan to put Crotty and Fekitoa together for a string of games to get them to gel and gain experience. They would have also been keen to Give Cane a consistent run. But I think its pretty clear when you run guys 3+ big test matches in a row depending on their workload they can start to show fatigue and I personally thing when they start to show fatigue its almost too late to do something about it.
I also believe some of our players are as good as they are because they work harder on the field than any other players in the world. For example its not an exaggeration to say that Brodie Retalick does maybe 1.5 times the work in a game than most international locks. His work and the punishment he takes may be about the same as most locks take over 5-6 tests. Its an absolute necessity to manage these guys better and use the depth we have to maintain better consistency.
The Jones Boy
First XV
There was a lot of talk about Sonny Bill being finished when he was injured and that we don't need him anymore etc.
The truth is, he will walk straight back into that back line when he is fit at either 12 or 13. He is huge, he is hugely experienced, he is quick for a big fella, he is a line breaker and he is the best in the world at a hand off in the tackle and he is no slouch on the tackling front.
We missed him badly on the EoyT
The truth is, he will walk straight back into that back line when he is fit at either 12 or 13. He is huge, he is hugely experienced, he is quick for a big fella, he is a line breaker and he is the best in the world at a hand off in the tackle and he is no slouch on the tackling front.
We missed him badly on the EoyT
Shaggy
First XV
Yes, but Hansen has told the guys to make sure they turn up to the camp in January fit, as he wants them firing right from the get go in Super Rugby, so they will be at their peak when the B&I Lions arrive. Apparently 40 or so players will be invited to the player camp, including some of the long term injured (Nehe Milner Skudder, SBW, Nepo Laulala etc) .... That message on the show up fit, may have been for the likes of Julian Savea not to repeat this year
2017 is going to be another draining one on the players I'm afraid, but at least we should be better placed to share the load, having developed a few players
Don't worry about the heavy schedule and travelling round the globe to sell Adidas to the rest of the world. There is always a vacation in Paris waiting for your boys, I mean a test game v France.
Beauden Barrett looked hilarious in an interview to a babe of a journalist. He looked like he couldn't wait to run to the disco with her (I hope he did).
Beauden Barrett looked hilarious in an interview to a babe of a journalist. He looked like he couldn't wait to run to the disco with her (I hope he did).
Selling AIG seems to be the priority for the AB's. Especially in France.
https://www.aigassurance.fr/
AIG, Adidas booh.. Corporate greed.. that's what has them so tired!
Hm yeah The All Blacks have done some AIG ads specifically for the Irish market which is a bit crazy considering Dublin GAA is also sponsored by AIG and they seem to do less promotion than the All Blacks here. Couple that with the fact Addidas are likely the ones who helped bring the Maori to Munster and their sponsors seem to exert a lot of influence.
Must be a very lucrative deal.
Must be a very lucrative deal.
With our tiny population, we need to turn the All Blacks into a big brand to generate revenue, also taking bridge too far test matches in America helps. It all goes towards player retention hopefully.
Does the Mitre 10 Mega competition get decent coverage in the UK and France? It's a great competition and generating interest and more TV deals in that could lead to further revenue and bigger contracts for the players, keeping them in NZ.
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Haven't seen the Dubs lose this year either, get your act together AIG, true dominance is blue dominance!
No problem. Milk them. No coverage for the Mitre 10 Mega.
The French union tried to sell 15 made in China replicas of the Eiffel Tower, somehow, nobody was buying...
