[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Argentina (20/09/2015)

[Every Time Ref]

If memory serves (which is a way of saying I have no stats to back this up and can't be arsed doing rudimentary research), the ABs are often well below their best in the first match of a series / tournament. Maybe hjaving them first up is Argentina's best chance to beat them?

I'm pretty sure if that happened it would leap straight to second place in my Favourite World Cup Memories list.

 

[Shaggy]

If memory serves (which is a way of saying I have no stats to back this up and can't be arsed doing rudimentary research), the ABs are often well below their best in the first match of a series / tournament. Maybe hjaving them first up is Argentina's best chance to beat them?

I'm pretty sure if that happened it would leap straight to second place in my Favourite World Cup Memories list.

Undoubtedly, it's best to get an early game against the ABs, however NZ second game is against Namibia, four days later, meaning Argentina will face the ABs strongest squad ... I don't think anyone's forgotten what the Pumas did to France in their opening game in 2007 either. From a NZ perspective, we need hard games, so it's good that we get this one early

 

[GoTheNaki]

Argentina is a bogey team, and not one to be taken lightly. They've got better in the last two seasons of The Rugby Championship. Dark horse in the knock-outs, happy to play them now, even though we play a lot easier competition before the knock-out stage, which isn't great imo.

 

[Mcfadden]

Like others have said, my expectation would be to see a full strength side - they need the game time together before they get a rest. Unless you count Naholo as being part of our 'full strength' team but he won't be ready until later, and you could also quibble over whether Crockett or Woodcock should start. I'd be inclined to give Crockett some catch-up game time against Namibia and Georgia instead, and revert back to Woodcock when Tonga roll around. SBW was pretty strong last time they faced the Argies, so if they take precautions for Nonu then I'd choose Williams over Fekitoa.

If momentum seems to be with us then I wouldn't mind seeing a few cheeky drop goal attempts. I'm not saying DC is legendary at them, but he needs to try a couple of times imo. If things get super close in a knock out game then we need to feel comfortable-ish about it. I'd also say extra focus should be put on the scrum, and interpreting Wayne Barnes through whatever analysis they do (as sad as that sounds). I suspect we'll win, but I wouldn't put it past the Argies to make it scrappy.

 

[Jaguares]

Though one would expect tournament favorites NZ, SA and England to win (comfortably even 9 times out of 10) I wouldn't put it past their opposition to sneak home unexpectedly; a little bit of this and that and the opening round could see some big upsets.

SA is only favorite for Saffers. Australia is a better side ATM

 

[Zapphod]

Argentina is a bogey team, and not one to be taken lightly. They've got better in the last two seasons of The Rugby Championship. Dark horse in the knock-outs, happy to play them now, even though we play a lot easier competition before the knock-out stage, which isn't great imo.

I think it will be a tough game and if we play below our best we could easily lose, it would be foolish to right off the Argentinians as they have the capacity to win it given the chance.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Like others have said, my expectation would be to see a full strength side - they need the game time together before they get a rest. Unless you count Naholo as being part of our 'full strength' team but he won't be ready until later, and you could also quibble over whether Crockett or Woodcock should start. I'd be inclined to give Crockett some catch-up game time against Namibia and Georgia instead, and revert back to Woodcock when Tonga roll around. SBW was pretty strong last time they faced the Argies, so if they take precautions for Nonu then I'd choose Williams over Fekitoa.

If momentum seems to be with us then I wouldn't mind seeing a few cheeky drop goal attempts. I'm not saying DC is legendary at them, but he needs to try a couple of times imo. If things get super close in a knock out game then we need to feel comfortable-ish about it. I'd also say extra focus should be put on the scrum, and interpreting Wayne Barnes through whatever analysis they do (as sad as that sounds). I suspect we'll win, but I wouldn't put it past the Argies to make it scrappy.

Oh, my man...did you see SBW versus Australia? Fekitoa all day, every day. SBW should never be a starter ever again, in an ABs jersey.

 

[Agustin98]

I am an argentine player, so off corse Argentina gonna win the RWC

 

[smartcooky]

Argentina have never beaten the ABs, correct? Whats the closest theyve come to it?

Of all time, 1985; a 21-all draw in B.A. Mind you, that was four tries to zip (Argentina's points all came from the boot of the great Hugo Porta ( 4 penalty goals. 3 dropped goals)


In the professional era, 2001; All Blacks won 24-20 in front of over 70,000 at River Plate stadium, with a Scott Robertson try a couple of minutes from full time (two tries a piece)




Fun facts:

Anyone wondering about the time keeping, they didn't stop the clock in those days,it just ran for 40 minutes plus injury time. This match went on for 7 minutes of injury time.

A certain gentleman by the name of R H McCaw played in that match, it was his third test; 139 matches later, he's the only survivor from either side from that team.

Los Pumas No. 6, Santiago Phelan, went on to Coach the team until 2006.

 

[Mcfadden]

2006 also springs to mind. We beat Argentina 25-19, but a converted try would have won it. There's actually a highlights clip on youtube. It went into overtime and Argentina were in our 22 attacking hard. They came extremely close.

Tbh though, we were the architects of our own misfortunes. Our lineout was very poor, and it was in the midst of our rotation policy. Half of our key players were to Argentina, half did something else (stay at home to play Ireland I think).

 

[Kiwi_]

I actually rewatched some of the game back in 2001 when they nearly beat us, very average All Black side. Ben Blair was playing.. That small kid from Hokitika, not that he was awful, just not test match quality. Richie McCaw had an outstanding game, the commentators even said he looked like a future leader, that was his first year as an All Black, straight out off Otago Boys High School.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Oh, my man...did you see SBW versus Australia? Fekitoa all day, every day. SBW should never be a starter ever again, in an ABs jersey.

I did see him, and I saw Dan Carter having a shocker as well.
When your forward pack goes backwards your backs don't go forwards.
If SBW had been playing at Eden Park in the next game you would have seen a different player.
Hansen knows that, ergo SBW is in the squad.
Yeah he's a bit of a show pony but he can tackle like a monster and he has genuine skills and his hand off ability is 2nd to none.
Our forwards were doing the business so our backs got the platform they need.
Outside of Nehe there wasn't one AB who put up a good performance in Sydney.

The Argies will be tough and this will be a close hard fought victory to the AB's.
Wayne Barnes is the only random aspect.

 

[ABs2015]

Though one would expect tournament favorites NZ, SA and England to win (comfortably even 9 times out of 10) I wouldn't put it past their opposition to sneak home unexpectedly; a little bit of this and that and the opening round could see some big upsets.

SA is only favorite for Saffers. Australia is a better side ATM

Just for the record NZ, England and SA (in that order) are the top three favourites for the Cup.

 

[ABs2015]

So appreciating that the ABs select different players depending on the opposition and the fact that Naholo is not ready, any thoughts on what AB team you think/you'd like to see running out against Argentina?

My guess is we will see something like:
1 T. Woodcock
2 D. Coles
3 O. Franks
4 B. Retalick
5 S. Whitelock
6 J. Kaino
7 R. McCaw
8 K. Read
9 A. Smith
10 DC
11 J. Savea
12 M. Nonu (Fekitoa if Nonu isn't ready)
13 C. Smith
14 N. Milner-Skudder
15 B. Smith

Reserves Taylor, Crockett, Franks, Vito, Cane, TJP, Fekitoa, Barrett

Most of the players pick themselves these days so I suppose the talking points will be the props, blindside, and the make up of the bench.

 

[Kiwi_]

I'd have Vito ahead of Kaino. Vito will be a crucial player for us this RWC.

 

[Mcfadden]

Exactly. You have to look at how players went in the context of a match. That's like saying we lost in Sydney because Carter was poor (which some people tried to claim). No, the forwards didn't have a good day at the office and that makes a big difference for the receiver. Besides, SBW has some solid tackling stats this year, and he probably is more comfortable at 12. Fekitoa can play both I think, but he's more of a 13 isn't he?

I'm not an SBW fan by any means. The guy annoys me in many ways. But to say he should never start again in a black jersey? That's way too extreme. I would reserve such statements for rare performances like we use to see from Sione Lauaki. I try not to get too carried away, but his appearence(s?) in the black shirt were just garbage.

 

[ABs2015]

I'd have Vito ahead of Kaino. Vito will be a crucial player for us this RWC.

Yeah, I just wondered that against a big forward pack like Argentina they may go with the power of Kaino to start and bring on Vito later, perhaps switching Kaino to lock. Against the smaller teams (like OZ) Vito looks a solid option to start at 6 with Kaino on the bench covering lock.

Exactly. You have to look at how players went in the context of a match. That's like saying we lost in Sydney because Carter was poor (which some people tried to claim). No, the forwards didn't have a good day at the office and that makes a big difference for the receiver. Besides, SBW has some solid tackling stats this year, and he probably is more comfortable at 12. Fekitoa can play both I think, but he's more of a 13 isn't he?

I'm not an SBW fan by any means. The guy annoys me in many ways. But to say he should never start again in a black jersey? That's way too extreme. I would reserve such statements for rare performances like we use to see from Sione Lauaki. I try not to get too carried away, but his appearence(s?) in the black shirt were just garbage.

I agree. SBW is a good rugby player. He does the AB jersey proud when he wears it. Trouble for him (IMO) he is 4th in line now out of the 4 midfielders we took over there. I also think that for some reason he doesn't look to have regained the great form he had in Rugby before he went back to league. With the demise in form of Nonu (at the time) and the fact the Fekitoa hadn't emerged then, IMO SBW was the form 12 in NZ before he left. I wonder also if the great offloading abilities he has, which separated him from most, if not all others a few years back, is now not such a big deal. So many players have added that to their skill set in modern rugby (including many forwards). Perhaps they don't do it as well as SBW but it certainly not such a point of difference anymore... It will be interesting to see how he is used at the Cup, but barring injuries I reckon we will see him start against Namibia and come of the bench (covering the midfield and wing) in one or two other games (probably Tonga and Georgia). I reckon that will be his lot though as Fekitoa is a freak and a really impressive impact player off the bench.

 

[ncurd]

Just for the record NZ, England and SA (in that order) are the top three favourites for the Cup.

TBH I'd stick SA above us and possibly Aus and Ire. We're good but any of those teams can beat us regardless of the slight bump from being host nation and we are likely to have to play 3 of them.

I also wouldn't rate the AB'S as highly as the bookies have either...still favourites mind.

 

[Mcfadden]

For sure, there are a few underlying issues for the ABs which I'm a bit wary of. Slowness to the breakdown, poor tackling and slow starts in matches being among them. The Eden Park test was encouraging, but imo it papered over some stuff. Still, they do a lot better than most teams. Restarts, tactical kicking and arranged moves from set pieces are all strengths. I'm quite glad, and *hoping* losing the RC and being scrappy against SA has reinvigorated the boys. Wouldn't really be keen going into the World Cup undefeated.

 

[ABs2015]

TBH I'd stick SA above us and possibly Aus and Ire. We're good but any of those teams can beat us regardless of the slight bump from being host nation and we are likely to have to play 3 of them.

I also wouldn't rate the AB'S as highly as the bookies have either...still favourites mind.

Yeah, I was just clarifying for Conrad's sake that officially the guy he disagreed with actually had it right.

Yeah I'm not sure how I'd order the teams. I just don't have the time to watch the 6 nations or any of the NH domestic stuff so I never get much of a sense as to how they are tracking other than the internationals between NH and SH teams. I personally think OZ are looking really good and think they have a better shot than the odds suggest. I don't like the look of how SA are tracking (on and off the field) but I do think the ABs are looking good and as you say are deserved favourites. I wouldn't be putting any of my hard earned on them at those odds though so on that count it looks like I agree with you there. It's gonna be a good tournament. I don't think there will be a single team that won't be nervous going into the knock-outs. Looks like the ABs might have a repeat of the infamous Cardiff match against France