[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i dont think Dylan Hartley would be any use for the all blacks with Mealamu and Hore i think is Hartley played for the all blacks he'll only get like 3 or 4 caps cause i do like coles at hooker and what is your views on Tom McCartney

 

[Darwin]

...never really thought we had a problem at hooker...

I don't think we have a major problem, but I think we are far weaker at hooker than we have been in the past (think 3-4 years ago when we had Mealamu and Hore in their primes battling for a starting spot). At the moment we have an injury prone Mealamu who looks past his best and an in-experienced Dane Coles as our top two hookers. Not the worst hookers around, but I wouldn't rate either in the top 5 hookers in world rugby (whereas I think we would easily have someone in the top 5 in all other positions). I'm sure the problem will disappear pretty quickly once Coltman gets a bit more consistency into his game

i dont think Dylan Hartley would be any use for the all blacks with Mealamu and Hore i think is Hartley played for the all blacks he'll only get like 3 or 4 caps cause i do like coles at hooker and what is your views on Tom McCartney

I'm not a big fan of McCartney. By all accounts he is incredibly fit and very impressive in the gym (he is know as "freak" by his team-mates), but really struggles to show that on the field. They tried to convert him to LH prop last season with little success. He is a solid player with a good work-rate, but doesn't really offer that much with ball in hand.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i think we need to drop Mealamu

properly establish Coles and Coltman (or anyone else) as the two fighting for it and give them proper exposure to the AB camp...its the only way to make the leap from super rugby to internationals

 

[Darwin]

i think we need to drop Mealamu

properly establish Coles and Coltman (or anyone else) as the two fighting for it and give them proper exposure to the AB camp...its the only way to make the leap from super rugby to internationals

Or perhaps there should be a surprise call-up for this guy:

I do kind-of agree with your reasoning. However I'm pretty sure Mealamu features strongly in their RWC plans - if not they would have included another hooker on last seasons end of year tour. Mealamu does seem to be having a lot of trouble with his calf over the last few years, so I do expect to see 1, if not 2 new hookers blooded before 2015.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Or perhaps there should be a surprise call-up for this guy:

I do kind-of agree with your reasoning. However I'm pretty sure Mealamu features strongly in their RWC plans - if not they would have included another hooker on last seasons end of year tour. Mealamu does seem to be having a lot of trouble with his calf over the last few years, so I do expect to see 1, if not 2 new hookers blooded before 2015.

we can but dream!....wouldn't really be fair on everyone else though

Mealamu has to be 50/50 as far as making it to the world cup and even then how many games will he play? carrying injury prone guys is just asking for trouble...i'm looking at you colin slade!

 

[ruggabee]

Or perhaps there should be a surprise call-up for this guy:

Fark I remember watching him a few years ago and thought he was skitzo strong. Just real old school and just went at it no ****s given. Pity he's old

 

[Shaggy]

With regard to Richie McCaw, I can see the ABs passing the Captaincy to Keiran Read fulltime, and rotating the use of McCaw and Sam Cane in the starting role, with the other coming of the bench (in much the same way the Chiefs use Cane and Latimer now). This would allow the ABs to utilise McCaw's leadership skills, and prolong his longevity, while giving Cane the game time he needs.

I would also like to see Mealamu on the bench, while Coltman and Coles alternate as the starting hookers (as Jabby suggested), to allow them to get the test experience, and utilise/learn from Mealamu's experience.

Dan Carter (when he becomes available) and Cruden could also alternate starts, with Beauden Barrett and Tom Taylor also being brought onto the bench, so we can maintain our depth at 10 also

 

[The Jones Boy]

With regard to McCaw, people seem to forget how incredible he was when Jerome Kaino was at no.6
Messam is a fine player but when it comes down to it he's not as good as Kaino and he's a damn sight smaller.
Kaino is one of the few players who can put fear into the opposition.
His tackling is among the best in the world.
If he hits form for the Blues then Messam will go where he is best, as an impact player off the bench.
With Kaino on board McCaw doesn't have to do so much extra work in the tight to help Messam out.
Messam is a fine player but Kaino is a colossus.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think he's a bit of a thug. I don't rate him that highly as a hooker either - he is a solid test player, but hardly outstanding in my opinion (though to be fair I probably only watch him play 3-4 times a year for England). I think if he had stayed in New Zealand he would have been stuck firmly behind Mealamu and Hore (who I consider much better players in their primes), and probably left New Zealand looking for better money. Even if you offered him now I would be relatively happy to stick with Coles and an ancient Mealamu. Obviously my opinion may change if he plays well against us in a few months time!

He's certainly had his temperament issues. But since his sending off for calling Wayne Barnes a cheat, missing the Lions tour and his talk with Stuart Lancaster, who warned him he was on his last chance, he has been on his best behaviour; there will always be a question mark over if he will combust again, but it could turn out to be the turning point in his career he needed.

To his credit, the guy's won over 50 caps for England and in the 6 nations his throw accuracy was just over 90% (better than Mealamu); but it helped that he had Lawes and Wood to throw to, who are his club team mates. I think Youngs is better in the loose, but his throwing in at the line out in the Autumn and 6N was terrible; as shown in the All Blacks game when he replaced Hartley and pretty much cost England field position that led to the NZ try. It was really Dorian West who broke down Hartley's throwing technique and got it to the level it is now. Had he stayed in NZ, first he may not have converted to hooker and secondly, as you said he would not have 50 caps to his name; being behind Mealamu and Hore. I saw Coltman throwing in two line outs in a row for the Highlanders and both were penalised for not being straight. It reminded me of Tom Youngs throwing i.e. something potentially to cost a test match. Coles has improved his line out throwing, but still I don't think he's got a 90% line out accuracy.

In terms of the top international teams i think the pecking order for hooker is: Bismark, Strauss, Moore, Hartley and Hibbard. Bismark probably stands head and shoulders above everyone at Hooker at the moment and as you said NZ do not have one in the world's top 5.

 

[Peat]

With regard to McCaw, people seem to forget how incredible he was when Jerome Kaino was at no.6
Messam is a fine player but when it comes down to it he's not as good as Kaino and he's a damn sight smaller.
Kaino is one of the few players who can put fear into the opposition.
His tackling is among the best in the world.
If he hits form for the Blues then Messam will go where he is best, as an impact player off the bench.
With Kaino on board McCaw doesn't have to do so much extra work in the tight to help Messam out.
Messam is a fine player but Kaino is a colossus.

I endorse this message. Kaino is a joy to watch.

 

[Big Ewis]

as a 2011 RWC final survivor, I confirm Kaino is a fantastic player. Something very visible to me was how after he left post-RWC the Blacks suffered from much less carrying from the third row. He gave the All-Blacks size, and pure power and would mesh beautifully along with the current guys there (McCaw, Read, Messam..).

Haven't seen him since the said final though, and I hope he's still got the same level. Would be really cool to rediscover him on the int'l scene again, and against a worthy foe these days in England.

 

[Darwin]

He's certainly had his temperament issues. But since his sending off for calling Wayne Barnes a cheat, missing the Lions tour and his talk with Stuart Lancaster, who warned him he was on his last chance, he has been on his best behaviour; there will always be a question mark over if he will combust again, but it could turn out to be the turning point in his career he needed.

To his credit, the guy's won over 50 caps for England and in the 6 nations his throw accuracy was just over 90% (better than Mealamu); but it helped that he had Lawes and Wood to throw to, who are his club team mates. I think Youngs is better in the loose, but his throwing in at the line out in the Autumn and 6N was terrible; as shown in the All Blacks game when he replaced Hartley and pretty much cost England field position that led to the NZ try. It was really Dorian West who broke down Hartley's throwing technique and got it to the level it is now. Had he stayed in NZ, first he may not have converted to hooker and secondly, as you said he would not have 50 caps to his name; being behind Mealamu and Hore. I saw Coltman throwing in two line outs in a row for the Highlanders and both were penalised for not being straight. It reminded me of Tom Youngs throwing i.e. something potentially to cost a test match. Coles has improved his line out throwing, but still I don't think he's got a 90% line out accuracy.

In terms of the top international teams i think the pecking order for hooker is: Bismark, Strauss, Moore, Hartley and Hibbard. Bismark probably stands head and shoulders above everyone at Hooker at the moment and as you said NZ do not have one in the world's top 5.

I think that's a fair enough. I do agree Hartley is a solid international hooker, but I don't think there is that much different between him and the likes of Coles and Mealamu. If feel Coles and Mealamu offer a bit more with ball in hand than Hartley, which is important in the current NZ side (as neither Woodcock or Franks offer much with ball in hand). Both are solid lineout throwers too, and the NZ lineout has been going very well over the last few years (4-5 years ago it used to be our biggest weakness). A quick look at the stats (from scrum.com) shows that the All Blacks lineout functioned at 85% last season. I didn't break that down into individual players (as we rotated our 3 hookers a lot last season), but I think our top 3 hookers all had similar accuracy. So you are right that they aren't quite at the 90% level, but they aren't too far off (and there are many more factors to lineout success apart from the hooker...).

Coltman is an exciting prospect, but the biggest issue is his lineout throwing. He was a specialist TH prop up until 3-4 years (and still plays there at times for Otago), so throwing is a relatively new skill for him. He has certainly made big improvements in his throwing from when he started - he was pretty atrocious for a couple of seasons - but he still has a lot of work to do. If he sorts that out I think he will end up being an excellent test player - he is renowned for his scrummaging, is a strong ball runner, has a massive work-rate, and is good at the breakdown. However sorting out lineout throwing is easier said than done, and can take a lot of time...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Coltman is an exciting prospect, but the biggest issue is his lineout throwing. He was a specialist TH prop up until 3-4 years (and still plays there at times for Otago), so throwing is a relatively new skill for him. He has certainly made big improvements in his throwing from when he started - he was pretty atrocious for a couple of seasons - but he still has a lot of work to do. If he sorts that out I think he will end up being an excellent test player - he is renowned for his scrummaging, is a strong ball runner, has a massive work-rate, and is good at the breakdown. However sorting out lineout throwing is easier said than done, and can take a lot of time...

See I think the core roles of a hooker is to scrummage/hook and lineout throwing. Everything else is a bonus. That's why a lot of England fans were going mad at Tom Youngs when he came on for Hartley during the France and Scotland games in particular. He just couldn't hit a barn door with his throws. It certainly contributed to defeats in the NZ and France games as it gave away possession and territory. Youngs is arguably better at everything else compared to Hartley, but many think he should not be near an England shirt until he can throw accurately and hit his jumpers under pressure. Youngs is a converted centre and only became a hooker about 3 seasons ago, but his rise has been meteoric. Like Coltman lineout throwing is the weakest aspect of his game.

 

[Shaggy]

Wow ... it's not very lively on this thread is it? I guess a lot of the All Black stuff is being talked about on the Mid season watch thread.

As far as Hookers go, I've been encouraged by the way Dane Coles is playing at the moment, and I see him as the starting Hooker, with Mealamu coming off the bench ... they may alternate this of course, but the AB selectors/coaching staff will probably want to limit the possibility of a re-occurrence of Mealamu's Calf injury. The third Hooker spot is anyone's to take IMO ... none of the front runners have really put there hands up/seized the opportunity. Cory Flynn is an option, but is unlikely to be picked unless they are forced to do so, due to injury. Nathan Harris is probably the best in terms of all round performance of the young Hookers, but he lacks experience even at Super Rugby level (he's only had a few games, but has looked pretty good in them for the Chiefs) ... so, I wouldn't think he's in the frame for selection in this series

 

[Shaggy]

Well, it looks like the time for the 35 man squad is almost upon us (it's named on Monday, NZ time) ... this Stuff article outlines who they see as the front runners

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10030327/Hansen-poised-to-unveil-newcomers-in-squad

Interesting that in addition to Fekitoa (Centre), names like Nathan Harris (Hooker), and Patrick Tuipulotu (lock), all feature prominently in the article

... Here's who they think will make it, if you don't want to read the article

POSSIBLE ALL BLACKS SQUAD
Outside backs: Israel Dagg, Ben Smith, Julian Savea, Charles Piutau (subject to fitness), Cory Jane
Midfield: Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Ryan Crotty, Malakai Fekitoa
First five-eighth: Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett, Colin Slade
Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara
Loose forwards: Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, Sam Cane, Liam Messam, Jerome Kaino, Steven Luatua
Locks: Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano, Brodie Retallick, Patrick Tuipulotu
Props: Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Jeffery Toomaga-Allen
Hookers: Dane Coles, Keven Mealamu, Liam Coltman, Nathan Harris
Injured: Francis Saili, Ben Afeaki, Augustine Pulu
Unavailable: Dan Carter
On the fringes: Shane Christie, Brad Shields, Victor Vito, Ben Tameifuna, Andy Ellis, Luke Braid, Luke Whitelock, Lima Sopoaga, Frank Halai, Kane Hames, Jeremy Thrush

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think they can afford to include a few younger guys in the squad who won't necessarily make the 31 man squad. That's where guys like Harris and Tuipulotu come from, I suppose.

 

[Darwin]

Piutau out for 6-8 weeks, meaning he will miss the test series. Bugger. If I was the selector he would have been my first choice right wing (with Savea on the left and Smith at fullback). I suspect we will see 11. Savea, 14. Smith, 15. Dagg, but prefer if we saw 11. Savea, 14. Jane, 15. Smith. As I mentioned on another thread Visinia could be a bolter for the training squad.....

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Bugger. I suppose Dagg, Smith, Savea is still an ok combination

 

[Shaggy]

Piutau out for 6-8 weeks, meaning he will miss the test series. Bugger. If I was the selector he would have been my first choice right wing (with Savea on the left and Smith at fullback). I suspect we will see 11. Savea, 14. Smith, 15. Dagg, but prefer if we saw 11. Savea, 14. Jane, 15. Smith. As I mentioned on another thread Visinia could be a bolter for the training squad.....

That's not good news, but not totally unexpected news about Piutau ... I'd expect that we will see all the combos in the back three of Dagg-Jane-Savea-Smith as the coaches vary who they replace in what position when the replacement comes on. I think they'll use Fekitoa (like I mentioned in the other thread that you speak of), on the wing as well - I see him as a possible replacement for Savea if he's not replacing Conrad Smith, where as I see Jane and Ben Smith (assuming Dagg is at fullback) as replacements for one another.

I guess Visinia has the perfect opportunity to show how good he is at Fullback, but the selectors will probably want to see a bit more of him before they include him

Fish, I totally agree that Tuipulotu and Harris would be better as squad members who aren't used this time around ... give them exposure to the All Black camps, and then take them on the November tours if they've shown they are good enough.

 

[nickdnz]

Piutau out for 6-8 weeks, meaning he will miss the test series. Bugger. If I was the selector he would have been my first choice right wing (with Savea on the left and Smith at fullback). I suspect we will see 11. Savea, 14. Smith, 15. Dagg, but prefer if we saw 11. Savea, 14. Jane, 15. Smith. As I mentioned on another thread Visinia could be a bolter for the training squad.....

I'm not totally against Visinia as a bolter - but I'd be shocked if Jane missed out for him. I personally would love to see TNW given a shot at fullback..