England 2024/25

[BPM]

Side note - Murley is looking as good as ever. I think he is surprisingly underrated.

His attacking skills are great but his defensive reads are also excellent and he was very, very close to a carbon copy of the intercept try he got against Bristol.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Having watched "the big game" at the weekend it just kind of confirmed to me that Steward isn't cut out for Test match rugby. For Quins' second try he saw Murley coming from 20 yards away yet was still unable to lay a finger on him as Murley went around him with ease.

Steward is far too slow.

Maybe, although I think it was more a case of Murley doing everything right and TBF I’d be expecting any top class winger with that amount of space to finish that. Not sure whether Brown actually made contact with the tap tackle, but the stride immediately after that looked like Murley stumbled slightly and was heading infield after which he changed direction for the outside and switched on the afterburners. I can understand why that would have caused Steward to hesitate for a fraction of a second after which he was never in with a chance.

Brown also had the chance of a tackle earlier in the move, but was treading water. He wasn’t fast enough for wing a decade ago, let alone now. Many other wings would probably have prevented Steward from being exposed like that.

I’m not sure speed’s Steward’s issue, more agility and acceleration. Unsurprising he looked clumsy against Murley who’s about half his size.

 

[LardFingers]

How Steve Borthwick can get England back on track in 2025

Sorting out the lack of identity in defence and ending the fly-half debate are just some of the issues the head coach must address next year

www.thetimes.com

It annoys me they are so obsessed with changing the 10s around, or dropping Marcus forever and probably banning him from the game in the case of one of the Times journos.

It is a position that is working for us at the moment. One of the few.

Marcus Smith has been making a lot of our points and kicking his goals - he should be able to claim the place as his own while he continues to perform. I am glad we have a player as good as Fin on the bench.

The 10s are not responsible for us gassing out after playing 20 minutes of our sh1tty blitz.

 

[BPM]

I agree. The part I find equally frustrating is the oft repeated assertion that Fin Smith is definitely the better option based almost exclusively on one good cameo vs. a poor Japan team that was already beaten.

It's not that I don't rate Fin Smith. It's more that the evidence to back his claim on the shirt comes primarily from his Saints performances, whereas Marcus has conclusively proved he can translate his club form to test matches against the best teams.

If Marcus gets a Lions call (which he should), the Argentina tour is a great opportunity for Fin to stake a proper claim. Until then, we need to back Marcus 100%. FWIW, Borthwick has done that so far, it's more of the media touting Fin.

 

[Reiser99]

I agree. The part I find equally frustrating is the oft repeated assertion that Fin Smith is definitely the better option based almost exclusively on one good cameo vs. a poor Japan team that was already beaten.

It's not that I don't rate Fin Smith. It's more that the evidence to back his claim on the shirt comes primarily from his Saints performances, whereas Marcus has conclusively proved he can translate his club form to test matches against the best teams.

If Marcus gets a Lions call (which he should), the Argentina tour is a great opportunity for Fin to stake a proper claim. Until then, we need to back Marcus 100%. FWIW, Borthwick has done that so far, it's more of the media touting Fin.

The mistake was not having Fin on the bench more. Especially with Ford not fully fit, Fin should have been given more time off the bench. I'm all for transitioning players into teams, but I feel Borthwick is far too conservative on this. It's also better to transition into a winning team and we don't have this luxury. He seemed desperate to have Ford there in the Autumn to 'steady the ship' or something and tbh that's mainly based on one recent performance against Argentina. Personally, if Ford is on the bench still come the WC, then we definitely ain't winning, same with a couple of other players like Cole. He still has a role to play in the squad, but Fin should be getting more game time personally. As you say, hopefully Marcus will go with the Lions and Fin will get his chance in Argentina. However, I feel that Fin should start at least 1 game and the US game. Like with other older players, we know what they can do. Playing Ford won't tell us much. He should be backing up Fin.

 

[BPM]

I agree. I think Borthwick’s reasoning on picking Ford was sound enough on paper. However, it ignored the fact that Ford had played very little rugby coming in to the AIs.

I don’t think it means the strategy of bringing on Ford to close out games can’t work, but he isn’t the future in any respect so I’d much prefer to see Fin getting that game time.

 

[McTallshort]

I must be in a minority here because I still think Ford still has a lot to offer England.

He took a lot of flak after the NZ game when the game was effectively lost in the scrum.

 

[BPM]

He carried the can for the result without it really being his 'fault'. However, the ineffective attempt at a 'tackle' and the missed drop goal were two critical moments that definitely contributed to the loss.

I think the main issue was bringing him back in with next to no game time. He was rusty and it showed. As I said earlier, that doesn't mean he doesn't still have a lot to offer. However, I'd argue that might now be off the pitch as more of a mentor to the Smiths. IMO, the priorities are backing Marcus as the starter whilst building Fin's experience and giving him a legitimate opportunity for o challenge for the starting berth. That means Ford taking a back seat, but that could still be an important and influential role.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree. I think Borthwick's reasoning on picking Ford was sound enough on paper. However, it ignored the fact that Ford had played very little rugby coming in to the AIs.

I don't think it means the strategy of bringing on Ford to close out games can't work, but he isn't the future in any respect so I'd much prefer to see Fin getting that game time.

Which makes it stupid. There’s a shed load of evidence that consistently says that players need to be battle hardened going into internationals. They’re called tests for a reason.

Going forward the team should be built around M Smith with F Smith on the bench. Everyone knows that M is capable of individual moments of brilliance but the question he has to put to bed is whether he can consistently get the whole team firing. So far that’s only happened in patches, probably in various parts down to M himself, continuity, other selections and tactics etc. But until he can consistently do that the question marks will remain. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if this time next year F is the man in possession, especially as the 9 and probably most of the back 3 will be from his club.

We talk about all kinds of reasons why we haven’t been winning - defence, selection, tactics, individual errors, but the biggest one is collectively between the ears, having the mental hardness to see out tight matches in the way the Boks do. That’s why the Autumn regression was so disappointing after establishing ourselves as competitive over the previous few months.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Missed dropgoal was more Randall than Ford tbh

Ford should start or not be in the 23 IMO - when everyone's available, at least. If Marcus goes on the Lions then Ford on the bench with Fin starting is what I'd go for

Pecking order for me, going into the 6N, is
1. Marcus
2. Fin
3. George (but really there more to coach and mentor and only in contention if an injury to 1 or 2)

 

[Booboobang]

Dan still has to improve some basics, but watching him yesterday, he is very very good with ball in hand. Really dynamic and doing things like accelerating on to the ball which seems to be beyond the wit of most. Lucky to get a central contract now, but I can understand why Borthwick wants him to succeed.

Hasnt this been dan for years now? Lights it up in the loose but his darts and scrum are poor... I get he is only 24 but he hasnt actually shown any active improvement in 2 years.

 

[Booboobang]

Van Rensburg is probably not eligible according to a line in this.

Inside centre is a problem for England, but Gloucester’s Seb Atkinson could be the solution

Sturdy 22-year-old is a hefty hitter who exudes poise on the ball – Steve Borthwick should take note

www.telegraph.co.uk

'Benhard Janse van Rensburg is the Premiership's pre-eminent centre, and would theoretically qualify on residency in 2026. However, he seems to be scuppered by virtue of a single appearance for South Africa Under-20 in 2016.'

This has been covered plenty in other threads, its a non issue for JVR he is still eligible for some reason, cant remeber the exact reasoning of the top of my head though.

 

[BrokenWing]

The U20s were South Africas nominated second team, BUT, to be locked in you’d have to have played against another nations second team. So you could play another nations U20s which weren’t their second team and still be able to switch nations.

 

[Scotty]

Hasnt this been dan for years now? Lights it up in the loose but his darts and scrum are poor... I get he is only 24 but he hasnt actually shown any active improvement in 2 years.

He needs George to step down to second choice and allow him to tke the first choice at club but because George I'd England captain even though declining he has to be first choice.

It's hindering Dan and at 24 if he wants to be England's first choice he needs to be at club level.

 

[Geordie]

Whats peoples thoughts on big Seb Blake?

 

[Geordie]

I agree. I think Borthwick's reasoning on picking Ford was sound enough on paper. However, it ignored the fact that Ford had played very little rugby coming in to the AIs.

I don't think it means the strategy of bringing on Ford to close out games can't work, but he isn't the future in any respect so I'd much prefer to see Fin getting that game time.

He did this with Slade aswell...no gametime at all straight in to running a blitz defence...not ideal!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

A question I have for all the Marcus smith did well for England fans, if he’s so good why couldn’t he get the centres involved?

Are we blaming that on the centres? Ollie L didn’t touch the ball playing at 12 after the 11th minute vs New Zealand. Need to find the other stats but that 10 12 13 doesn’t work. If we are so set of Marcus we need a new 12.

 

[BPM]

I agree that Marcus has necessarily got the best out of the team. However, in the AIs in particular, he got a very ropey platform from the forwards which massively limited his options. I don't think we had a particular problem getting the backline moving at the end of the 6N or in NZ but I think we really missed Mitchell's speed of delivery and sniping threat to keep defences guessing. In the AIs Marcus had to pull rabbits out of hats and then gets criticised for being 'too individual'. I suspect Fin, Ford or most other 10s would have had similar struggles but probably wouldn't have had the flair/ability to conjure anything up and quite possibly failed to get us beyond the gainline or just kicked away possession. We'll never know but IMO, England would almost certainly have scored less points without Marcus' ability to create something out of nothing.

The other thing I find weird is the claim that Marcus only creates for himself. Total rubbish. Take Walker's try at the weekend as a prime example: he uses his individual skills to create space and will usually pick out the best supporting runner. That's no different for England. If anything, I feel like we should be criticising other England players for not being alive to the opportunities Marcus creates. It's not like he's just starting playing the way he does.

But by all means, let’s blame our only bright spot.

 

[BPM]

Whats peoples thoughts on big Seb Blake?

I rate him highly. Big, strong hooker who is good at the nuts and bolts and is a handful in the loose. I’m surprised he’s not at least picked up an A cap.

 

[BrokenWing]

A question I have for all the Marcus smith did well for England fans, if he's so good why couldn't he get the centres involved?

Are we blaming that on the centres? Ollie L didn't touch the ball playing at 12 after the 11th minute vs New Zealand. Need to find the other stats but that 10 12 13 doesn't work. If we are so set of Marcus we need a new 12.

It takes time to develop an understanding and create synergy.

I don't think chopping and changing players will help unless you can miraculously find a partnership that gels immediately.