Oooh you picked Isiekwe....
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England 2021/22
- Thread starter Scotty
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in general, I don't particularly rate Slade for England,
I'm just going off what I think EJ will do, and I really can't see him discarding Slade
More likely is we see Marchant on the wing (either for a resting-Watson, or replacing May)
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I would love to see that pack take the field.On the articles calling for players to be dropped because for being too old, rather than being less good at playing rugby...
Marler is still our best Loosehead, and props can go long into their 30s. If Marler's not there, it'll be because he's made himself unavailable, not because he's too old.
George might find himself on the bench more with LCD really kicking on - but he's still plenty effective, and there's no-one else snapping at his heels.
Launch and Lawes are still 2 of our 3 best locks, with the next generation currently looking to be a step down.
Wilson - pity he was "discovered" late, but there's plenty of competition, and he's had a decent innings despite that.
JJ is still a useful player, but we've got plenty of 13s, and his personal form doesn't justify selection, regardless of age.
May is too good to be discarded on age alone - but he does need to find some (club) form to justify selection.
The other thing I'd say with the older players, and this is me as a fan, I'd probably disagree with myself were I coach - the older established players like the above... you're not going to learn anything new about them by playing them again now; but you may just speed up the introduction of the next generation by leaving them out. You could always spend a year without those old heads, safe in the knowledge that they can come back in if the youngsters fail to take their chances.
I'd keep the older 1st choice players in the squad, and drop the older backups; but tend to put the older starters on the bench (except Marler)
BillyV...
We know he has difficulty motivating himself in training, so I'd imagine that 18 months of playing meaningless rugby will take it's toll on his fitness and he'll take some time to get back up there performance wise. Performance wise, he hasn't justifying his place since RWC2019. He must have used all of his credit in the bank by now. But we know he's got the talent - he just needs to show it, for club, and then we can talk about selecting him for country. Zach may have chosen precisely the wrong year to move to France, as, if Eddie agrees, he's taken himself out of contention at just the moment he may have pushed his case.
Further with Billy, I think we're going to be looking at what we want from our 8, and how we balance the back row and back 5, given the players around them.
We saw some promise (poorly executed as yet) that we're looking for a faster game-plan, moving the point of attack and requiring insanely high fitness / mobility levels from out back 5 - which... isn't really Billy's forte; but could play into the hands of 8s like Mercer, Donbrandt or Willis. If we couple that with Ford and Smith at FH pulling the shots and making the decisions based on that - hopefully allowing Youngs () to play on instinct, rather than over-thinking things - and TBF, when he does that, he can be brilliant.
IF we do that, and find a way around the road-block in the 12 shirt (sod it, let's play Barbeary and Simmonds there, it'd still be a step up) then it looks very exciting for England; but not really a game-plan suited to Billy (though it may bring Simmonds closer - depending on balance 4-7).
I'd also say that Slade really needs to prove his worth at this level. He's got 38 caps, and still plays like he's in his second international window - inconsistent and insecure. With Lawrence and Marchant snapping at his heels - I'd be tempted to play both of them alongside each other, and leave Slade on the bench!
1. Marler, 2. LCD, 3. Sinckler
4. Itoje, 5. Iseikwe
6. Curry, 7. Underhill, 8. Donbrandt
9. Youngs (), 10. Ford
12. Lawrence, 13. Slade
11. Watson, 14. Radwan, 15. Malins
16. George, 17. Mako/Genge, 18. Stuart, 17. Launchbury, 18. Willis
19. FlavourOfTheMonth, 20. Smith, 21. May
In the back 3 I think the priority is to sort out 15 over worrying about May. For as good as he can look ball in hand when the sun’s out, Malins doesn’t inspire much more confidence than Daly. Steward is the answer and it would be better to introduce him with 2 wings who know their way around although I would like to see Radwan get some time.
Well, I wasn't going to pick Hill or Ewels was I?
If Isiekwe goes back to Saracens and plays alongside Itoje for a bit, then I'm happy for him to leapfrog the others who aren't Launchbury, Lawes or Kruis
Agreed to the first; though I'm happy enough having one of Watson/May on the bench, with the other starting - which allows for 2 starting shirts to be taken by the next generation.
On Malins - I disagree, strongly. He does on grass what Daly only does on paper - and then he adds an ability to tackle players on top of that.
Taken in isolation, I'd pick Stewart ahead of Malins. But I don't like making selections in isolation; units need to work, units need to work in conjunction with other units, and game-plans, and backup players who don't necessitate a new game-plan (see selection of BillyV).
All other considerations aside, I'd have Stewart as a better FB than Malins (helped by my liking of defensive solidity at the back). But IMO Malins suits a back 3 with a 2nd FB (Watson, May-kinda) better. IMO Malins better suits a fast paced game which changes the point of attack and wants 3 decision makers in the backline. IMO Malins has more, better like-for-like (ish) options available to step in if needed (DeGlanville, Parton-kinda).
Ultimately, I don't think it's as simple as Player X is THE answer - there are many different answers, and quite honestly, many different questions.
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I genuinely hope Isiekwe really pushes on at lock...he has all the physical attributes, lets see if he has the top two inches.... Likewise lets hope the Kpokus push on.
The first few months of the prem will be very interesting to see what players form is and how they are playing.
The first few months of the prem will be very interesting to see what players form is and how they are playing.
Yeah Steward is the one id really like to see us start now...
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Jon Kpoku’s gone to Coventry.
Little surprised at that - though I suppose he can see the log jam ahead of him at lock for Saracens (one of whom being his brother) so might as well look elsewhere
Might do a Nic Dolly and use Cov as a springboard to get back into the prem ASAP, they've got good ties with a number of prem clubs (through locality/player sharing and with a number of ex-pros being on the staff etc.)
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Maybe. Did he play at all last season? I’ve struggled to find Sarries match day squads form last season. Their website only has upcoming fixtures and no results section.
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I usually quite like Alex Shaw’s articles but this isn’t one of his best: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/predicting-a-37-man-england-autumn-nations-series-squad/
Some weird calls in there - for example includes Fin Baxter while completely forgetting Will Stuart exists and then name checks Richard Capstick despite him being nowhere near the squad in the summer.
Some weird calls in there - for example includes Fin Baxter while completely forgetting Will Stuart exists and then name checks Richard Capstick despite him being nowhere near the squad in the summer.
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Who is our 12? I really dont know, do we fast track Dan Kelly who likely isnt ready although didnt look bad in the Summer.
Use Lawrence who is a 13? And alot of hit talent is wasted at 12 IMO but still a good option but not a fan of players out of position it happens to often.
What other options do we actually have? Devoto? Or keep Faz? Or?
Use Lawrence who is a 13? And alot of hit talent is wasted at 12 IMO but still a good option but not a fan of players out of position it happens to often.
What other options do we actually have? Devoto? Or keep Faz? Or?
Would love to see Devoto there, but I think that ship has sailed
I'm guessing one of Farrell, Manu, Lawrence
I'm guessing one of Farrell, Manu, Lawrence
Younger brother
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Yep. I agree with the above, personally, I prefer O’Conor to Devoto, but it’s the same story there I’d say.
Dan Kelly did look promising. I’m backing Tigers to do well this season which should help.
Dan Kelly did look promising. I’m backing Tigers to do well this season which should help.
I didn’t really notice Kelly, good or bad really other than a couple of runs. But I’d guess Jones will have been looking at tackle % stats and a few other things. I really want him given a chance but can’t see Jones dropping Farrell after he’s invested so much time in him. He isn’t the best 10 or 12 or a good leader, not sure really what we could do with him other than the 22 shirt.
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Leave Farrell out …
I’d be curious to see if it would push him to raise his game. I suspect it would. I don’t like him as a player or as a captain, but I don’t question his attitude/professionalism and I think a bit of pressure for his place would probably being out the best in him.
As I’ve said before, Eddie could publicly say in advance that he’s ‘resting’ him to mitigate the inevitable media storm.
With Dan Kelly, I was talking about his performances as a whole rather than the Canada game in isolation. Hard to know whether he’s impressed enough to be a serious contender, but I think he did well enough to be in the conversation.
I’d be curious to see if it would push him to raise his game. I suspect it would. I don’t like him as a player or as a captain, but I don’t question his attitude/professionalism and I think a bit of pressure for his place would probably being out the best in him.
As I’ve said before, Eddie could publicly say in advance that he’s ‘resting’ him to mitigate the inevitable media storm.
With Dan Kelly, I was talking about his performances as a whole rather than the Canada game in isolation. Hard to know whether he’s impressed enough to be a serious contender, but I think he did well enough to be in the conversation.
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Maybe Lawrence is a 13 in old rugby, but more often the 12 has been seen as the 'go forward' option, with the 13 being the distributor/outside break style.
The 13 is used to keep defences narrow, so that the 2nd distributor can pass outside the rush defence.
Maybe with 50:20 rule, the spaces will change.
As for now Devoto offers the power at 12 with Slade at 13, and a runner like Steward at 15.
Alternatively, I would like to see 2 power centres and a playmaker at 15, e.g. Devoto, Marchant with Malins at 15.
EJ want to play the first way, look back at Farrell, Manu, Slade as first choice, with Daly at 15. Therefore I think a backline of
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Devoto
13 Slade
14 Watson
15 Steward
But a case could be made for
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Devoto
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Malins
You say more often but in the prem how many 13's are the distributor?
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Agreed. Only really Slade and Sam James IMO.
Honestly, I think it’s pointless talking about Devoto and probably any players that were overlooked this summer (excluding injured players like Barbeary, Ribbans and West who would have been called-up but for injury).
Personally, I’d have had looked at a couple more (Tom Willis, Hassell-Collins and Loader for example), but this summer was the time for experimentation and unless someone is impossible to ignore*, I think the RWC squad will be made up of players who have recently been in the squads for the 6N and summer.
*You could argue the Simmonds brothers have done that and still been left out.
Honestly, I think it’s pointless talking about Devoto and probably any players that were overlooked this summer (excluding injured players like Barbeary, Ribbans and West who would have been called-up but for injury).
Personally, I’d have had looked at a couple more (Tom Willis, Hassell-Collins and Loader for example), but this summer was the time for experimentation and unless someone is impossible to ignore*, I think the RWC squad will be made up of players who have recently been in the squads for the 6N and summer.
*You could argue the Simmonds brothers have done that and still been left out.
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Thinking more of ABs or Exeter as great examples. While the 2nd style of FB being the distributor is Sarries, Bristol and SA.
