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Why isn't Rugby league much bigger in Ireland? (or Wales and Scotland)

So?

That money then goes towards their continued dominance of the English sporting landscape - it doesn't matter where it's coming from - it's going back into the EPL.

And yet Rugby does pretty well in the UK... In fact the revenue last year was a healthy £150 million pounds from what I've read. I know it's small given the UK's population base, but it's still pretty decent - certainly compared with Unions like Australia's, where the norm is now an annual loss.

Rugby has only been professional for less than 20 years too - so why hasn't League been able to achieve anything similar? They both are dwarfed by soccer, yet Union manages to do alright in spite of League having a good 90 year head-start in terms of professionalism.

All in all I guess I just find it a little hard to understand why League has failed to make any ground in the South of the country. Heck, when the Murdoch Super League breakaway comp was started here in the '90s a Perth team was established - the Western Reds - in spite of people in Perth mostly not really knowing that game called "Rugby" exists, let alone that there were two types of it. In spite of that they still averaged solid 20k crowds, but were dissolved when the comp was rationalised with the formation of the NRL.
 
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All in all I guess I just find it a little hard to understand why League has failed to make any ground in the South of the country. Heck, when the Murdoch Super League breakaway comp was started here in the '90s a Perth team was established - the Western Reds - in spite of people in Perth mostly not really knowing that game called "Rugby" exists, let alone that there were two types of it. In spite of that they still averaged solid 20k crowds, but were dissolved when the comp was rationalised with the formation of the NRL.
From what I understand after the split between the Northern League and the RFU, the RFU kept control over the pitches in the south of England and in Wales to halt the spread of League.
 
From what I understand after the split between the Northern League and the RFU, the RFU kept control over the pitches in the south of England and in Wales to halt the spread of League.

Not sure that can be seen/used as an excuse.....

More likely its the social divide. League always was a working mans game and union a money owned game...the working classes in Wales etc... Played in teams that were attached to companies that weren't keen to support the northern union and for fear of being booted out stayed well clear.
 
All in all I guess I just find it a little hard to understand why League has failed to make any ground in the South of the country. Heck, when the Murdoch Super League breakaway comp was started here in the '90s a Perth team was established - the Western Reds - in spite of people in Perth mostly not really knowing that game called "Rugby" exists, let alone that there were two types of it. In spite of that they still averaged solid 20k crowds, but were dissolved when the comp was rationalised with the formation of the NRL.

Because Rugby spread in popularity throughout the country before "Soccer" became the dominant football code, and before the Northern Union split.
So it already had a larger organic support-base (geographically at least) where they didn't need to start from scratch - league just is not played outside the North to any real extent.

The international game is probably the best tool for growth too.
Just look at the Olympics - if someone is successful at an Olympics in a really minor sport you subsequently see a huge upsurge in interest in that sport.
 
The armed forces ban was the biggest thing that hurt rugby league.
 
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To be fair St Helens is a massive rugby league town. There's no football team here (of any worth) although being between Liverpool and Manchester there are a lot of football fans. But no shortage of rugby, I'd say Saints are the kings of this town.

Suspect the weather is better in Brisbane or Sydney though!
 
This is true - it has a massive audience well beyond England. Even still it's revenue base is only a third of the NFL, whose revenue last year was over $US10 billion.

EPL this season has surpassed the £3billion mark (600m up from 2011) which is over $5 billion. Given that NFL relies almost exclusively on a US audience their scope for growth is minuscule in comparison to the EPL. Possibly as a result of it being the most watched sports league in the world, the one thing I hate about the EPL is the increasing number of multi billionaire foreign owners...its the one aspect of sport I could do without and go back to a simpler time when the game was more accessible to the working man who can no longer afford a ticket. Player greed is another awful side effect of the rapid increase in money flowing into the game.

As regards Rugby League and London...giving up on London would be waving the white flag and accepting the sport will never grow beyond the M62. Just because football takes up about 90% of the London sports market doesn't mean there is no room for the likes of League to gain a proper foothold. To me thats defeatist. Mentioned this before but league needs better business savvy folks to promote the game better. What's the youth set up like in London? It's at grass roots where the game will ultimately grow, and having a local top level team to support is vital.
 
EPL this season has surpassed the £3billion mark (600m up from 2011) which is over $5 billion. Given that NFL relies almost exclusively on a US audience their scope for growth is minuscule in comparison to the EPL.

Maybe, but given that it hasn't overtaken the NFL already when it arguable should have, I'm not so sure... At the end of the day the core business is your immediate fan base, and for the EPL that's the 60 million in the UK plus fans across Europe. For the NFL it's America's 300 million+ population plus places like Canada. Moreover, it's a vastly better run business than the EPL no matter how you look at it; they make more money, have much greater control over their product, have higher crowd averages and viewing figures, have a stronger development network and a much more egalitarian competition.

The joke of the EPL is that it's a closed shop; there's really only 3, maybe 5 teams that really ever win it and only 4 have won it since the year 2000. Compare that with the Super Bowl, which has had 10 different champions since 2000 and 19 since its inception in 1967.

To me, the EPL is a vastly inferior product in terms of its business model to the NFL, and I'd be willing to bet that the NFL will outstrip them in growth in the years to come just purely because the EPL is a system of little kingdoms of the protected few. It's sort of ironic, that soccer in Europe has become a symbol for the excesses and inefficiencies of capitilism and the free market, whilst the NFL in the US is almost almost a socialist system.

As regards Rugby League and London...giving up on London would be waving the white flag and accepting the sport will never grow beyond the M62. Just because football takes up about 90% of the London sports market doesn't mean there is no room for the likes of League to gain a proper foothold. To me thats defeatist. Mentioned this before but league needs better business savvy folks to promote the game better. What's the youth set up like in London? It's at grass roots where the game will ultimately grow, and having a local top level team to support is vital.

I absolutely agree. A city that big MUST have room for growth. The League just isn't going about it the right way...

What about Ireland though, do you think people in the north or south could take to League?
 
Hmm..lots of opinion based POV.."to me"..."im not sure"..."arguably"..etc. Lets deal in core facts, the EPL; a league that is just 21 yrs old (less than half), a league that has seen a revenue increase of $1.6billion in 3 yrs, a league with more foreign billionaires sniffing around teams than any other sport (and quite a few of being yanks from...the nfl), the most watchd sports league on the planet that has sold the tv rights to more territories around the world than any other sport (and by some distance), the EPL has the competition of being just one league among five major leagues in Europe and yet it has already has over half the revenue of the only league of NFL. When you are only reliant on one market the scope for growth is limited, in contrast to the EPL.

As regards socialism/capitalism...both systems in sport are wrong...one rewards failure (yeah..let's lose all our games so we can draft good players) and punishes success...the other rewards big transfer spending (which is why financial fair play is being brought in...% income spent per team). While neither system is right, one of them is trying to get it right.

That's that cleared up.

Regarding league, Australia is clearly very different to England so the argument (but Melbourne hates league and yet it has a team) can't be used. England is football dominated...whereas sports in Australia are much more evenly spread. That link above showed the spread (the fledgling football generates more revenue than Union, also the 2006 World Cup had record viewing figures of Aussies getting up in the early morning to watch Australia vs Italy). You don't get this type of spread or interest in England unfortunately as its lopsided with coverage to football. In terms of proper coverage, Cricket gets it once every 4 yrs (home ashes), Rugby for five weeks during the six nations and a RWC, league..even the RLWC didn't get that much coverage (i've heard league folk in London bemoan that you wouldn't know a WC was going on). The key failing with league is the poor international set up...get that right and it has a chance..because the club game in cricket, rugby union and rugby league barely register. So given that cricket and Union rely on international game to receive any sort of coverage (and it is in small pockets), it's also the only way league is going to get any. In terms of Ireland, its up to the league governing body if they want to grow their sport by promoting it better, setting up youth programmes (can't ever recall seeing league being played here...just football, Gaelic football, hurling, and Union..in that order). Having an "Irish" team full of Aussies and Yorkshiremen ain't gonna get anyone interested.
 
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I wouldn't say that say that club Union "barely registers" - that would have been true 5 years ago perhaps but it's not totally fair now.
It's hardly got a big profile though. It does now consistently get included in the "sports"* section of news programs and has a weekly highlights package (in an ok time-slot).

*I say sports, but as you've pointed out the sports section of news programs is pretty much the "football" section.
 
Same in the Media. The radio station Talk Sport talks almost exclusively about Football no other sports at all get a look in apart from a 2 hour rugby show late on Sunday night.
 
Now that Brian Moore has taken Full contact on Talk sport Rugby League now gets a massive 5 minute segment on that - and listening to him he had to really fight for it.

It's right that football gets the vast bulk of the shows, but it is frustrating.
 
I suppose I'm talking in relative terms. Certainly the club game registers more than cricket by a distance. Perhaps the Heineken Cup takes the plaudits for that as its a well packaged and promoted competition. The Premiership barely gets a look in though..would love to know the viewing figures between it and the Super League; I'd guess there wouldn't be much in it. The difference arises in the international game where Union has its house in order...although league is a shambles in comparison can it really do anything where there are barely any opponents to play?

Talk"sport" is a laughable misnomer..8-10pm on a Sunday is the only time another sport gets any airtime. Speaking of Talksport, for me Brian Moore is the best pundit of anyone on the station.
 
Hmm..lots of opinion based POV.."to me"..."im not sure"..."arguably"..etc. Lets deal in core facts, the EPL; a league that is just 21 yrs old (less than half), a league that has seen a revenue increase of $1.6billion in 3 yrs, a league with more foreign billionaires sniffing around teams than any other sport (and quite a few of being yanks from...the nfl), the most watchd sports league on the planet that has sold the tv rights to more territories around the world than any other sport (and by some distance), the EPL has the competition of being just one league among five major leagues in Europe and yet it has already has over half the revenue of the only league of NFL. When you are only reliant on one market the scope for growth is limited, in contrast to the EPL.

As regards socialism/capitalism...both systems in sport are wrong...one rewards failure (yeah..let's lose all our games so we can draft good players) and punishes success...the other rewards big transfer spending (which is why financial fair play is being brought in...% income spent per team). While neither system is right, one of them is trying to get it right.

That's that cleared up.

The question of "right" is neither here nor there; the competitions are simply a reflection of different operational structures, and what the EPL reflects is the grossest of free market capitalist inequalities. So you may argue that the NFL punishes success, but the EPL institutionalises it, in effect creating an unbreachable class divide between the top 4 and the rest. In that sense, as a 'market', the EPL simply offers far less genuine choice. In the NFL, AFL and even NRL you can generally keep the faith that your team's day will come, but as an EPL fan you effectively have to resign yourself to being part of a permanent loser class of supporter if you aren't part of the top four fraternity - or are uncomfortable doing what the majority do and jumping on the bandwagon of a team that couldn't be more dislocated from you if it was on Mars.

What the NFL does in reality when it "punishes success" is ensure the appeal of their product is not retarded toward less than a hand full of major teams, as it is in the EPL. The core difference is that, as you say, the NFL is always trying to find the right balance, whilst the EPL is not.

This is what sets them apart; a business, the NFL is considered one of the best run in the United States, almost always reaching its targets. This is a sobering thought, given that they are currently targeting revenue of $25 billion within the next 13 years. The EPL is clearly successful, but it's core product is far less impressive and more poorly structured.

Lastly, I don't buy that the NFL is limited by the US, as it has shown appeal in surprising places. You talked about the way people came to Melbourne to watch the pommies of the EPL play, yet the NFL has done the same thing: in London last year the NFL had the Jaguars play the 49ers at Wembley and sold it out pretty quick. This, for a foreign sport with teams poms have no association with (though the vast majority of EPL top four fans have zero connecting them with the clubs they support too).

The key failing with league is the poor international set up...get that right and it has a chance..because the club game in cricket, rugby union and rugby league barely register. So given that cricket and Union rely on international game to receive any sort of coverage (and it is in small pockets), it's also the only way league is going to get any. In terms of Ireland, its up to the league governing body if they want to grow their sport by promoting it better, setting up youth programmes (can't ever recall seeing league being played here...just football, Gaelic football, hurling, and Union..in that order). Having an "Irish" team full of Aussies and Yorkshiremen ain't gonna get anyone interested.

Unfortunately, the failure of International League is really the failure of English Rugby League... For New Zealand the main and pretty well only game has been Rugby Union forever, so their presence in League is actually a growth and success story (if they get a second team they will become increasingly formidable at international level, as they already have so many players in the Aussie NRL teams). If England had a stronger and more representative club comp, then the international game would be more sustainable.

So I think you have it the wrong way around; having a strong international scene would help England, but you don't get one unless England are competitive, and they won't be until they fix their club scene. As it is, England simply aren't strong enough, a fact reflected in their inability to beat us in any series since the 1970s.
 
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Rugby league in the north is still exclusive to towns and city's with small football clubs, with the exception of Leeds and in recent years hull and wigan (who grew after opening links and stadium sharing with the warriors and hull fc). Greater Manchester, for example is a pure footballing region. There only ESL team, Salford red devils, have always struggled to get Big attendances and create interest in the team. Places like Sheffield, Liverpool, York, Sunderland and Newcastle are all big northern towns without a big league presence.

For me the RFL need to concentrate on growing the game in areas where there isn't any big football teams. Cumbria is a league hotbed, yet have no ESL team. This needs to be addressed before the London situation surely. Areas like the west country, central andnorth Wales, Lincolnshire, east Anglia, Kent and the Scottish borders are area that should be targeted.

London already has 6 EPL teams, 3 championship teams, 4 union teams with London origins and 2 county cricket teams. Plus Wimbledon and the national stadiums in union and football.

If you want to break the London market then surely by having a competitive, diverse competition is key. The only question with Broncos, is by how much they will lose by. London fans aren't going to chose a team that is always going to lose.
Londoners could easily support a team from elsewhere in the country. The fact Manchester utd play 100s of miles away has never bothered them.
 

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