Where every All Black was born - NZ Herald Article

[TRF Mr Fish]

You see, that's the sort of comment that should really be well clarified, to avoid accidentally calling an entire nation a group of bigots with no sense of complex national identities. Not saying it was done on purpose or that Cooky actually thinks that, but it does read an awful lot like it.

One does feel that the article's tone and impact are lowered by departing from the factual and laudable debunking of a myth that has got well established in the rugby community to launch personal attacks on people who have believed/written about this while using the same hand-wavey evidence often used by said people to begin with.

Well goodnumber10 conveniently left out the two preceding paragraphs...

 

[Peat]

Well goodnumber10 conveniently left out the two preceding paragraphs...

It was ambiguous enough as a whole without Cooky pointing out authorial intent and my last paragraph still stands in its entirety.

 

[goodNumber10]

Comprehension is not your strong point is it? This is what happens when you quote pieces of text OUT OF CONTEXT, and then attack the quote

Now, try reading it IN CONTEXT with what came before it (my emphasis to make it easier for you!)

[TEXTAREA]The poaching myth is just that, a myth, a falsehood and an outright lie, perpetrated by second rate so-called journalists who spend too much time interviewing their own laptops, and not enough time fact-checking or talking to real people. They appear to get most of their information from the University of Google.

Most of them have never had the courage to wander outside their privileged, white, middle-class comfort zones. It appears to be mostly English journalists who believe this myth, and perpetrate it...

Because they live in a country where they see people who were born there, and who have lived there all their lives, still calling Pakistan "home".

Because they accept it as normal for someone to call themselves an "Afro-Caribbean" or a "French-Ghanaian"

Because they see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived there for a very long time, waving Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

Because they see New Zealand as a "white" country; conveniently ignoring the fact that native New Zealanders were in fact Maori, not European.

I guess it is hardly surprising that they don't get it when a "brown" person who was born and/or grew up in New Zealand, sees himself as a New Zealander, has a national pride for New Zealand and a passion to play for his country. They find this strange and they become suspicious.
[/TEXTAREA]

This needs no clarification. If you don't take the comment out of context in the first place, then its perfectly clear to anyone with elementary school comprehension skills.

I haven't misunderstood anything mate, I've pointed out that it reads badly, and even with the additional paragraphs you've highlighted it still comes across ambiguous.

The reason for this is because you open your whole article with an absolute statement by referring to Europe and British people as a whole, and lay your "i'm going to have a swipe" stance straight from the off by referring to something completely irrelevant to rugby in cricket:

There is a perception in Europe, particularly in Britain, that New Zealand "talent strips" the Pacific Islands of rugby players, stocking their own competitions for the benefit of their own teams, and that the All Blacks are overflowing with this stolen talent.

Ok, you reference journalists as an after the fact, but that opening gambit is an absolute that clearly references the Rugby community in Europe and Britain lumping them all in together and as such your whole article reads as a generic statement against the occupants of Britain a midst a bitter swipe.

Additionally I find your continued use of "they" in regards to a nation and your reference to "Brown" people and mixing of race and national identity throughout the article, as well as the assumption that anyone who believes that New Zealand have poached is automatically a racist bigot who do no understand immigration, as extremely distasteful and just as bad as those you are denouncing. It also contradicts itself, by saying they somehow find it acceptable in some circumstances but then label them bigots in regards to New Zealand.

It's also interesting that you quantify your denouncement of their poaching statement purely on whether the end result produces an all black or not.

Britain and Europe is a complex melting pot of races and national identities that dwarfs the immigration issues in New Zealand, additionally Britain has long had a tradition of cross border nationals representing one of the other countries, as a result we've actually got a lot more tolerant history of immigration in sport than New Zealand will ever have.

But the whole, excellent, factual side of the article is completely undermined by your continued reference to undefined articles and opinions etc.. in Britain (why do you focus it solely on Britain when you open with Europe and Britain?) and the fact you resort to anecdotal rhetoric and insults at the end.

Look, this discussion could go very badly very quickly, which is not what i'm intending, i just find your article quite insulting in places and teetering on the edge of labeling everyone a bigot - i realise this isn't what you meant by it but that's how it comes across.

The factual content is really interesting, i'd love for someone to do a similar study revolving around England.

 

[smartcooky]

All I will say is this.

Yes, I opened with "There is a perception in Europe, particularly in Britain, that New Zealand “talent strips†the Pacific Islands of rugby players, stocking their own competitions for the benefit of their own teams, and that the All Blacks are overflowing with this stolen talent."

I then make a case for why that is not so by providing actual evidence; facts and figures.

I and explain who is responsible for perpetrating the myth the "second rate so called journalists", (and I will name some names, Stephen Jones, Eddie Butler and Brendan Gallagher among others). In so doing, I have a swipe at them, and I make no apologies for that.... ***-for-tat.

Now, if after all the extensive, well researched evidence I have provided, the only thing you can find to comment on is that you didn't like the way I worded one paragraph (a paragraph which you took out of context anyway) then you obviously weren't listening.

 

[cyRil]

Is this topic of conversation actually still going on?

 

[goodNumber10]

All I will say is this.

Yes, I opened with "There is a perception in Europe, particularly in Britain, that New Zealand "talent strips" the Pacific Islands of rugby players, stocking their own competitions for the benefit of their own teams, and that the All Blacks are overflowing with this stolen talent."

I then make a case for why that is not so by providing actual evidence; facts and figures.

I and explain who is responsible for perpetrating the myth the "second rate so called journalists", (and I will name some names, Stephen Jones, Eddie Butler and Brendan Gallagher among others). In so doing, I have a swipe at them, and I make no apologies for that.... ***-for-tat.

Now, if after all the extensive, well researched evidence I have provided, the only thing you can find to comment on is that you didn't like the way I worded one paragraph (a paragraph which you took out of context anyway) then you obviously weren't listening.

I haven't taken anything out of context, you can keep singing that song if you want but I've just clearly shown you why the context you are NOW presenting it in is not the same as the article, once again this is because you clearly set the article up as a generalisation and not specifically aimed at the Journalists who you do not reference nor quote at any point then after.

That opening point is a huge sweeping generalisation that you then perpetuate throughout the article and sets up your quite incredibly insulting closing gambit.

I don't really care about the journalistic points, I don't disagree they are misinformed or whatever, I'm merely illustrating your understanding of Britain's complex national identities and how you portray us is as misguided as the people you are crticising as bigots.

Regardless, if you don't like people criticising the content of your article then don't put it on an internet forum.

 

[smartcooky]

I haven't taken anything out of context, you can keep singing that song if you want but I've just clearly shown you why the context you are NOW presenting it in is not the same as the article, once again this is because you clearly set the article up as a generalisation and not specifically aimed at the Journalists who you do not reference nor quote at any point then after.

That opening point is a huge sweeping generalisation that you then perpetuate throughout the article and sets up your quite incredibly insulting closing gambit.

I don't really care about the journalistic points, I don't disagree they are misinformed or whatever, I'm merely illustrating your understanding of Britain's complex national identities and how you portray us is as misguided as the people you are crticising as bigots.

Regardless, if you don't like people criticising the content of your article then don't put it on an internet forum.

Bolllocks! I have changed nothing. All I have done is explained it to you because you didn't seem to have the comprehension skills to understand what I wrote. I simply included the piece of text (that was already in the article) that you conveniently ignored so that you could make your point.

Judging by the number of positive comments I have received on that post, you seem to be the only one who didn't get it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is this topic of conversation actually still going on?

The Welsh team are all English.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The Welsh team are all English.

And the English full of French, Italian and people of Scandinavian origin ... I think we have a winner ...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

The Welsh team are all English.

the english are full off kiwi's and your best player is samoan

 

[TRF_Olyy]

the english are full off kiwi's and your best player is samoan

The irony of a scotsman talking about foreign players.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The irony of a scotsman talking about foreign players.

English ... New Zealanders ... South African's ... Dutch ... tehehe

 

[Draggs]

English ... New Zealanders ... South African's ... Dutch ... tehehe

Even worse... Australians

 

[Groundhog]

the english are full off kiwi's and your best player is samoan

If somebody can identify Scotland on a map, and knows that the ball must be passed backwards in the game of rugby, the chances are he's a future Scottish international.

 

[TheSaffycen]

the english are full off kiwi's and your best player is samoan

Alex Corbisiero is samoan ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Anyway it's hard too say with players and poaching. What is poaching ? Is manu Tuilagi poaching by England when they have no choice on who clubs sign ? I guess you can say they shouldn't select him but he went through the age grades and our school systems, so why shouldn't they ? And really a scot talking about poaching ?

 

[Big Ewis]

what is poach - please baby don't hurt me....don't hurt me...no more..damn I love that tune..

 

[smartcooky]

Alex Corbisiero is samoan ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Ahhh, spoken like a true prop forward.

Anyway it's hard too say with players and poaching. What is poaching ? Is manu Tuilagi poaching by England when they have no choice on who clubs sign ? I guess you can say they shouldn't select him but he went through the age grades and our school systems, so why shouldn't they ? And really a scot talking about poaching ?

I don't think any country "poaches" players, i.e., goes out of their way to entice players from another country to come live in their country so that they can select them for national teams. In the case of Manu Tuilagi, AIUI, he emigrated to England with his brother(s) when he was about 12 year old. Corbisiero, American by birth even earlier with his parents when he was still four year old.

I think players playing in countries other than their birth is simply a sign of the times; a reality of the modern age that is not going to change any time soon. Corporate Globalisation, the ease of travel to other countries and near-instant global communications has shrunk the world dramatically. FFS, things like Mobile Phones and Skype was the stuff of science fiction when I was a teenager.

It is now commonplace for extended families to be spread all over the world. Neither of my kids are really very sporty, but if they were, and they represented the country of their residence, they would be playing for Canada and Switzerland respectively.

 

[squirrel]

well spoken cooky
how about someone start up a thread based on 'race XV's' Caucasians, blacks, islanders, Hispanics etc would be fun if taken in the right spirit

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think we did a white v ethnic 15 before ?

 

[nickdnz]

Ahhh, spoken like a true prop forward.

I don't think any country "poaches" players, i.e., goes out of their way to entice players from another country to come live in their country so that they can select them for national teams.

That is a very diplomatic stance there cooky. I think Jared Payne, Mike Harris, Sean Maitland and Gareth Anscombe were selected very much on that basis...project player schemes in Ireland would indicate that is the case.