What do you expect realisticly from your country at the RWC?

[Charles]

That dosn't even make any sense there champ.

I expect them to win because by rights they SHOULD win- the team is there.

There is nothing wrong with expecting a team to play to its abilities, and not take anyone lightly.

Wake up

It makes perfect sense. NZ have consistently been the #1 team, yet they have only won once. That is proof enough that there is close to no correlation between the two things, much to the chagrin of the people of NZ, who have been disappointed every four years since 1991.

Yet there you go, claiming that anything but final victory will be a failure, almost demanding a victory while saying that surely the team has learnt from its mistakes.

It would be tragic if it wasn't funny...:lol:

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

It makes perfect sense. NZ have consistently been the #1 team, yet they have only won once. That is proof enough that there is close to no correlation between the two things, much to the chagrin of the people of NZ, who have been disappointed every four years since 1991.

Yet there you go, claiming that anything but final victory will be a failure, almost demanding a victory while saying that surely the team has learnt from its mistakes.

It would be tragic if it wasn't funny...:lol:

For the first time on this subject I agree with you. We have no "right" to win anything. That is the mentality that has proven costly in the past. We have the "right" to believe we have a strong team, but that's about it. Anything can happen on the day, that's the nature of knockout football and all the right preparation does not mean the right tactics will be employed when the pressure goes on.

Anyone who has in their mind that the All Blacks "will" or "should" win the World Cup this time is using the same logic that got us where we have been in the past.

We have a much higher chance of winning the World Cup if we collectively realise (Team, Management, Fans) how much chance there is for other teams to upset us. A realistic attitude will go a long way.

I think the All Blacks often try in these tournaments to play pro-active football in their own style until it works, rather than be able to switch to reactive football and change tactics when somethings not working.

 

[markshaw]

For NZ I'd expect about 12 returning players:
Woodcock, Hore, Mealamu, Williams, McCaw, Ellis, Carter, MacAlsiter, Smith, Toeava, Muliaina, Sivivatu.
Williams, Ellis, and Sivivatu are probably only 50/50 selections though.

A further four players (Tialata, Jack, Leonard, Rokocoko) will possibly come into contention if there are a few injuries.

Kaino?

 

[Darwin]

Kaino?

Didn't play in 2007. The loosies were Thorne, Collins, Masoe, McCaw, Lauaki, and So'oialo.

 

[FlukeArtist]

It makes perfect sense. NZ have consistently been the #1 team, yet they have only won once. That is proof enough that there is close to no correlation between the two things, much to the chagrin of the people of NZ, who have been disappointed every four years since 1991.

Yet there you go, claiming that anything but final victory will be a failure, almost demanding a victory while saying that surely the team has learnt from its mistakes.

It would be tragic if it wasn't funny...:lol:

"anything but final victory will be a failure"

Thats exactly what I am saying.

The fact that you take your jollies from ABs losing dosn't really concern me chief.

TO clarify exactly what I meant by my last post is that surely after all the past failures, the ABs can learn from whats gone wrong and do it this time.

I didn't mean to assume we had a "right" to win it, but i'm saying that we have a top team, and are playing at home, and fro those reasons we really SHOULD win it - anything else is an abject failure.

I expect them to win it given all thats passed before. But then a lot of us kiwis are obsessed with winning the damn thing.

As a lot of All Blacks are quick to point out- there is a LOT of pressure on them to win. By past players, the public- everyone in NZ.
But I think thats been the key to their success over the years (OK - not in the RWC before someone rushes to point that out)
But as the saying goes: Pressure makes diamonds.

Honestly - after everything that has gone before, why wouldn't I say anthing else but victory would be a failure??
Its a failure everytime they don't win it.
What do you think would be defined as adequate otherwise Charles??

 

[FlukeArtist]

By the way: look at the ***le of this thread.

What is so wrong with me expecting NZ to win?
Is that unrealistic???

Whether it happens or not, it isn't unrealistic

 

[Charles]

"anything but final victory will be a failure"

Thats exactly what I am saying.

The fact that you take your jollies from ABs losing dosn't really concern me chief.

TO clarify exactly what I meant by my last post is that surely after all the past failures, the ABs can learn from whats gone wrong and do it this time.

I didn't mean to assume we had a "right" to win it, but i'm saying that we have a top team, and are playing at home, and fro those reasons we really SHOULD win it - anything else is an abject failure.

I expect them to win it given all thats passed before. But then a lot of us kiwis are obsessed with winning the damn thing.

As a lot of All Blacks are quick to point out- there is a LOT of pressure on them to win. By past players, the public- everyone in NZ.
But I think thats been the key to their success over the years (OK - not in the RWC before someone rushes to point that out)
But as the saying goes: Pressure makes diamonds.

Honestly - after everything that has gone before, why wouldn't I say anthing else but victory would be a failure??
Its a failure everytime they don't win it.
What do you think would be defined as adequate otherwise Charles??

I give up. Have you read CA Iversen's post?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I thik Flukeartist totally has a right to expect the ABs to win and have any other result deemed a failure. I feel the same regarding the Springboks; not winning would be failure as it would not be unrealistic to expect good things from them IMO. In the same breath I won't argue with the Welsh poster that said earlier in this thread that he expects Wales to top pool D even though I would be surprised if that happened; it would actually set up an easier road to the final for the Bokke LOL.

None of those are unrealistic. Where I think Charles has a gripe is that sometimes NZ supporters sound as if they can't see any other countries do well as well. Although they are clearly the best team these last 2/3 decades they are not at all unbeatable even at home.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I thik Flukeartist totally has a right to expect the ABs to win and have any other result deemed a failure. I feel the same regarding the Springboks; not winning would be failure as it would not be unrealistic to expect good things from them IMO. In the same breath I won't argue with the Welsh poster that said earlier in this thread that he expects Wales to top pool D even though I would be surprised if that happened; it would actually set up an easier road to the final for the Bokke LOL.

None of those are unrealistic. Where I think Charles has a gripe is that sometimes NZ supporters sound as if they can't see any other countries do well as well. Although they are clearly the best team these last 2/3 decades they are not at all unbeatable even at home.

Yes, yes, he has the right to expect the AB's to win. We have the right to think expecting that of right is silly. Both sides of that particular discussion have the right to believe what they want to. No-one said otherwise. We were discussing our opposing views on the subject.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yes, yes, he has the right to expect the AB's to win. We have the right to think expecting that of right is silly. Both sides of that particular discussion have the right to believe what they want to. No-one said otherwise. We were discussing our opposing views on the subject.

Fair enough. Though I do feel both Fluke and Charles were a little overextended in their posts.

 

[Charles]

What got me in Fluke's post is the "surely they have learned from their mistake". If Fluke had learn anything from the past WCups, he should know that:

-Being the best team =/= winning he cup
-Demanding victory = arrogance and likely disappointment.

It's not like it has never happened before, is it?

 

[TRF_RC]

If i were a Kiwi i would demand victory from the All Blacks. Just saying.

 

[Logorrhea]

What got me in Fluke's post is the "surely they have learned from their mistake". If Fluke had learn anything from the past WCups, he should know that:

-Being the best team =/= winning he cup
-Demanding victory = arrogance and likely disappointment.

It's not like it has never happened before, is it?

I dont think they are quite getting it

 

[FlukeArtist]

What got me in Fluke's post is the "surely they have learned from their mistake". If Fluke had learn anything from the past WCups, he should know that:

-Being the best team =/= winning he cup
-Demanding victory = arrogance and likely disappointment.

It's not like it has never happened before, is it?

My comment "learing from their mistakes" was actually pointing towards not taking anyone lightly, and disregarding all past results. Which has been the problem with past campaigns IMO

I agree the being the best team dosn't = winning the world cup.
But, demanding victory DOES NOT = Arrogance.
More = frustration at the capitulation and underacheivement over the years.
So Charles, NZ should just have a "just go out and do your best, win or lose" attitude??
That is loser talk.
Ricky Stuart made similar comments yesterday before last nights State of Origin Game 1 - and what happened? NSW lose.

Expecting the NZ players to play to their ability and not take other teams lightly isn't arrogant.
Nor it is taking away from any other team.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I dont think they are quite getting it

They? Just trying to clarify who doesn't appear to quit get it, out of the two New Zealanders currently posting about this aspect of the conversation?

 

[TRF_RC]

I don't understand the undying bitterness towards the All Blacks here...and their supporters. England were the best team coming into the 2003 world cup, no one would deny that. And i'm sure, only out of jealousy, would we have scaulded the supporters for expecting a win. There is nothing arrogant about expecting a team on top of their game to take the highest possible prize.
Is it arrogance if i expect Wales to come out of the pool stages as the top team? No. Because given past history at world cups they've been known to choke at the key stages, but they can do it. They can beat the other teams in the pool on their day. So why not, come RWC time, will they not do what's needed from them?
I can see where the ABs fans are coming from. What i can't see is why people from other nations are so vehemently denying them of this realistic expectation to win the world cup.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Thanks TRF_RC.

But I guess there is no accounting for Trolls, or for those that get their kicks from other's failure as opposed to their own triumphs.

 

[Charles]

*sigh*

 

[TRF_RC]

*sigh*

"Woe is me!"

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Thanks TRF_RC.

But I guess there is no accounting for Trolls, or for those that get their kicks from other's failure as opposed to their own triumphs.

By the way Fluke Artist I may as well say that although our opinions vary slightly on the mind-set that the AB's should take into a cup, most of the differences were based on your earlier less explained posts. I still totally respect your right to your view, I just believe we were debating the differences in details.

I can see both sides of this kind of debate as Charles seems to believe that if the AB's want to win this cup they need to be ready for anything and go in with the knowledge that there are many sides that can tip them up on their day. It hasn't always seemed that the AB's have done that. Aside from the actual game played against France in 2007, it also came out that there'd been a team discussion with several key players in the team talking about which strategies they'd need when they play the semi. Anton Oliver was one of those key players involved in that discussion and it was suggested that there was an attitude of looking a game ahead.

I'm sure lessons have been learned, but the thing about lessons learned is that they are never the final lesson. Sides need to try and anticipate what may happen when they meet their various opposition if possible and that comes from the realisation of the danger and potential of those teams. You simply can't expect to win.

This is where the difference in the arguments diverge, because it's perfectly reasonable for a fan to have the right to expect the AB's to win it. They have that right no matter how realistically it may bear out to be. The team and management however, should expect that they have the skill-set, the right players and the ability to win. They shouldn't anticipate and expect the right of the win or for it to come to them. They should be realistically aware of the fact that if they are not able to handle everything that is thrown at them there is a real chance of losing.

I'm not saying the AB's should go out with a losing mentality or defensive fearful mentality, but something more like "we are the best team in the world currently, we can win this if we play as well as the best team in the world can".

Still, there are no guarantees in this tournament.