What changes with Eddie Jones

[Maverick1987]

I'd have kruis, itoje, Fraser, billy v and mako v in my match day 23 any day.

I hair don't think their backs have the skills needed at international level.

Agreed .

We could do a lot worse than picking

1. Mako
2. George
3.
4.
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Fraser
8. Billy

Fill in the other 2 gaps with Brookes and Launchbury and you have a serious pack

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Dylan maniac Hartley as captain apparently

So mental. So so mental.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The thing with that is that Jones' issues with Robshaw were that he's decent at everything he does without really excelling/being world class at any.
How is Hartley any different? What does he excel at?
I would've been happy if Hartley wasn't in the EPS, and now it's looking like he'll be starting every bloomin' game!

 

[Maverick1987]

The thing with that is that Jones' issues with Robshaw were that he's decent at everything he does without really excelling/being world class at any.
How is Hartley any different? What does he excel at?
I would've been happy if Hartley wasn't in the EPS, and now it's looking like he'll be starting every bloomin' game!

What's happened that I don't know about ?

 

[j'nuh]

Jones out, now.

What's happened that I don't know about ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35116844

 

[Maverick1987]

Jones out, now.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35116844

Seen it . Can't say I'm not pleased tbh . We really lacked his darts in the World Cup and we are in desperate need of someone to get in the oppositions face .

Basically we needed to man up and Hartley would have led that

I'm more concerned about Borthwick and this http://www.skysports.com/share/10102045

 

[Peat]

Seen it . Can't say I'm not pleased tbh . We really lacked his darts in the World Cup and we are in desperate need of someone to get in the oppositions face .

Basically we needed to man up and Hartley would have led that

I'm more concerned about Borthwick and this http://www.skysports.com/share/10102045

When was the last time Dylan Hartley actually legitimately, effectively, got in the opposition's face?

And you do realise his last England performances included some pretty woeful throwing, right?

Once again, I repeat my mantra that if the coach is the right man, we must give him time before judging, but I'm saying this to convince myself and it's not quite working. There are only a few issues of selection where I feel a coach who wanted to do them shouldn't have been given the job and this borders on that. Hartley routinely fouls up when he is most needed and offers little but hard-working mediocrity around the field.

My alarm about the prospect of Sarries 2010 just went up slightly.

Again, reserve judgement.

But if we are going to play boring rugby with a foreign coach, then basically he has to win the big games very regularly, or there will be a hurricane of ****.

 

[TommiG88]

Hartley starting, George on the bench I think it will be.

Jones wants a bit more solidity at the set piece, like it or not we have been our best there over the last few years with Hartley at hooker. I like Hartley, he led from the front for saints and was a good captain.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I'm a curmudgeon I guess then.

Perhaps it's my age? The position of England rugby union captain is or should be an honourable one. Hartley isn't merely a bit dodgy in terms of discipline he's a record holder for the wrong reasons. Accused and found guilty of some egregious acts on the field. Eye contact, biting, striking and calling refs cheats, he's done it all. This isn't in my view being edgy its being a bell end.

 

[Sorp111]

The position of England rugby union captain is or should be an honourable one..

Much more important that it is a winning one. Robshaw was was very honorable as England Captain - and we won nothing.

 

[nickdnz]

Perhaps it's my age? The position of England rugby union captain is or should be an honourable one. Hartley isn't merely a bit dodgy in terms of discipline he's a record holder for the wrong reasons. Accused and found guilty of some egregious acts on the field. Eye contact, biting, striking and calling refs cheats, he's done it all. This isn't in my view being edgy its being a bell end.

Agree 100 per cent. I've played with some guys like that who for whatever reason was made captain - and nothing is more frustrating for a squad than your own captain not having the discipline you would expect from the most junior member of the squad.

For whatever people say about Richie McCaw - he only had 2 yellow cards in 148 tests. It sets a high standard for the team and people work out what was expected.

We're not in the amature era anymore - and you have to clearly distinguish the difference between an enforcer and a thug.

As it is I think Hartley is overrated as hell anyway.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think this is the right call if....

He is only captain for the 6 nations.
We try new back row / lock combinations

We ignore the fact he has major concussion problems currently.

And we ignore the fact he's the 2nd best hooker at Northampton.

So overall not the best choice ever

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agree 100 per cent. I've played with some guys like that who for whatever reason was made captain - and nothing is more frustrating for a squad than your own captain not having the discipline you would expect from the most junior member of the squad.

For whatever people say about Richie McCaw - he only had 2 yellow cards in 148 tests. It sets a high standard for the team and people work out what was expected.

We're not in the amature era anymore - and you have to clearly distinguish the difference between an enforcer and a thug.

As it is I think Hartley is overrated as hell anyway.

All Hartley's serious transgressions have been at club level. He's spent a bit of time in the bin in an Eng shirt, but not off the scale.

The RWC showed that a failing front 5 screws the whole team. Our scrum and, generally, our line out functions a lot better with Hartley involved. The platform has to be right to allow others to do their stuff.

I think he did a decent job at Saints and he has the international experience. It's a bold move, it may backfire, but as an interim measure I'm not too upset. But realistically, who else?

The contrast with the choirboy Lancaster years couldn't be greater.

 

[Maverick1987]

All Hartley's serious transgressions have been at club level. He's spent a bit of time in the bin in an Eng shirt, but not off the scale.

The RWC showed that a failing front 5 screws the whole team. Our scrum and, generally, our line out functions a lot better with Hartley involved. The platform has to be right to allow others to do their stuff.

I think he did a decent job at Saints and he has the international experience. It's a bold move, it may backfire, but as an interim measure I'm not too upset. But realistically, who else?

The contrast with the choirboy Lancaster years couldn't be greater.

This mirrors my thoughts exactly . Hartley also seems to step up when we have big games and when he's challenged . I'd rather have Hartley than Youngs

 

[Crapspray]

All Hartley's serious transgressions have been at club level. He's spent a bit of time in the bin in an Eng shirt, but not off the scale.

Well, he's picked up bans for an elbow-drop and biting in an England shirt. It was fortune that meant the bans occured after the international window. And whilst his bans are given for club offences, they've meant he's missed both a World Cup and a Lions Tour. Not good times to lose a captain.

The other problem is that he's half the player when he's trying to stay on the pitch.

---

Shows how lacking in leadership we've been for the last four years when this is the outcome. Though as has been said, who else is there? Only Parling (if we're set on it not being Robshaw) comes into mind, and he plays in the most competitive position in the squad.

On the bright side, it's nice that Jones wants England to have an edge. It's been sorely missed for about a decade now. I also hope this means he is bringing in new flankers. (I'm still clawing for a bright side.)

 

[nickdnz]

All Hartley's serious transgressions have been at club level. He's spent a bit of time in the bin in an Eng shirt, but not off the scale.

The RWC showed that a failing front 5 screws the whole team. Our scrum and, generally, our line out functions a lot better with Hartley involved. The platform has to be right to allow others to do their stuff.

I think he did a decent job at Saints and he has the international experience. It's a bold move, it may backfire, but as an interim measure I'm not too upset. But realistically, who else?

The contrast with the choirboy Lancaster years couldn't be greater.

1. He has transgressed plenty of England, he's actually been luck to escape some red cards in my opinion (a diving forearm on McCaw comes to mind). I don't understand how people can assume his constant trangressing at club level (in which he is captain) would be better in an England shirt if made captain.

2. Seeing as international form is a bit irrelevant with new coaches, systems, and other players around - it makes no sense for that to be the basis of selection. Other players perform well at club level - so I'd be inclined to say England's setpiece has been as much a fault of the coaches than anything else.

3. Who else? How about someone who made the last RWC squad instead of missed it cause he is a fool. Launchberry maybe?

 

[Peat]

This mirrors my thoughts exactly . Hartley also seems to step up when we have big games and when he's challenged . I'd rather have Hartley than Youngs

Rumour has it that it's not quite a straight choice between Youngs and Hartley, you know...

 

[Maverick1987]

Rumour has it that it's not quite a straight choice between Youngs and Hartley, you know...

It is when they are more or less the only players with any caps in that position and the pack minus Wood, Haskell and Robshaw have barley any caps at all . Although it is the time for change, its not the time for mindlessly dropping every player with a bit of experience for TRFs young team ideas

Also I'm basing my opinion on the fact it's interim until Eddie gets his feet under the table . I'd hazard a guess at Hartley not being captain next 6N if someone can step forward and put their hand up

I want it to be Itoje but I do understand the implications of having such an inexperienced captain ....

1. He has transgressed plenty of England, he's actually been luck to escape some red cards in my opinion (a diving forearm on McCaw comes to mind). I don't understand how people can assume his constant trangressing at club level (in which he is captain) would be better in an England shirt if made captain.

2. Seeing as international form is a bit irrelevant with new coaches, systems, and other players around - it makes no sense for that to be the basis of selection. Other players perform well at club level - so I'd be inclined to say England's setpiece has been as much a fault of the coaches than anything else.

3. Who else? How about someone who made the last RWC squad instead of missed it cause he is a fool. Launchberry maybe?

There's plenty of players about that have been gritty and been lucky to escape bans . Hell Bakkies would have been banned for half his career if all his stuff didn't have a blind eye turned to it

Bakkies Botha has also captained South Africa as far as I can remember . Correct me if I'm wrong

Andrew Hore is another one who a serious dick on he pitch but a good player and an experienced leader on the field (although not captain for obvious reasons)

Edit: I've double posted can someone put them together for me don't think I can do it on my phone . Thanks

 

[Peat]

Posts merged

It is when they are more or less the only players with any caps in that position and the pack minus Wood, Haskell and Robshaw have barley any caps at all . Although it is the time for change, its not the time for mindlessly dropping every player with a bit of experience for TRFs young team ideas

Also I'm basing my opinion on the fact it's interim until Eddie gets his feet under the table . I'd hazard a guess at Hartley not being captain next 6N if someone can step forward and put their hand up

I want it to be Itoje but I do understand the implications of having such an inexperienced captain ....

Marler has 37 caps, Cole has 52, Lawes has 42 and Launchbury has 28; that's not a tight five with barely any caps at all regardless of who you put at hooker (with Vunipola, Wilson, Parling and Attwood all being deputies with 20 or more caps). Flowerpot Men also have over 20 each plus there's a ton of experience available at blindside.

I'm not going to get too sucked into Hartley arguments until it's confirmed, but the argument that we're so short of experience in the pack that we have to cling to the experienced options at hooker regardless of the quality of the players involved strikes me as a little weak.

Also, I'm really not sure why you think this is merely interim.

 

[Jakedood]

Posts merged



Marler has 37 caps, Cole has 52, Lawes has 42 and Launchbury has 28; that's not a tight five with barely any caps at all regardless of who you put at hooker (with Vunipola, Wilson, Parling and Attwood all being deputies with 20 or more caps). Flowerpot Men also have over 20 each plus there's a ton of experience available at blindside.

I'm not going to get too sucked into Hartley arguments until it's confirmed, but the argument that we're so short of experience in the pack that we have to cling to the experienced options at hooker regardless of the quality of the players involved strikes me as a little weak.

Also, I'm really not sure why you think this is merely interim.

Rumours are the Jones is looking to appoint captains on a 2 year cycle, so basically if you get the job, you'll be there for a couple of years. However if your form isn't good enough, I think Eddie will be hard enough to say "I'll change captains" because the idea will be for the whole team to step up as leaders, rather than the onus falling purely on Hartley. I think Mike Brown is regarded as one of the vice captains, according to sky sports!