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Western Force officially dumped out of Super Rugby

I agree, and have been making the point for some time. To be fair the response from the Kiwis is twofold, "not our problem", which i think is naive, and "what can we do about it?" - and thats not easy to answer. Given that the ARU have shown themselves to be structurally disfunctional and incapable of governing the game in Australia, its highly unlikely they would take advice from the Kiwis about fixing things!.

My belief is that cutting one franchise will make next to no difference, we need an intermediate provincial comp like the Mitre 10 cup - and I believe the best solution would be to expand the Mitre 10 cup to include a group of Aussie teams, (and maybe some Pacific Island ones too), this would provide a much stronger feeder comp than the woeful NRC.
If that were done and at the same time the Brumbies & Tahs were combined, and the Reds & Rebels, while retaining the Force then we would have 3 pretty strong Super teams.
I would also dump the experiment with the Jaguares and Japan, which would help with the travel. Its all kite flying though, because none of it is ever going to happen.

We live in interesting - and challenging- times!

Have a listen to former Wallaby Coach Alan Jones talking to Mark Watson on yesterday afternoon's "Veitch on Sport"
NOTE: First link should open in a dropbox audio player. If not, click on the second link and you can download an mp3

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qewv310h08qvesj/vos-alan-jones-v-watto-august-12.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qewv310h08qvesj/vos-alan-jones-v-watto-august-12.mp3?dl=1

I think he's right about "regenerating the game at the bottom" . I think that the ARU made two crucial mistakes

1. They canned the ARC after only one season in 2007. If they had kept that running, it would be in its 10th year now, and Australian Rugby would be starting to reap the benefits. They reivnented that comp with the NRC in 2014, but the ARU MUST stay the course now, and find the money to keep it running. New Zealand's NPC (Mitre 10 Cup) runs at a loss. It costs the NZRU a bucketload of money, but they look past the money and see it as an investment; the dividend from their investement is a conveyor belt of new talented players

2. They demanded a fifth team in Super Rugby. What they have done is attempt to build Australian rugby from the top down, when they should be building it from the grassroots up. When they started with the Rebels, they didn't have enough quality players, so they had to get a dispensation from the ARU to import players to fill the gaps; three English players, four Japanese, two Irish, ten Kiwis two Welshmen and an American. This alone should have told them it was a mistake.
 
Have a listen to former Wallaby Coach Alan Jones talking to Mark Watson on yesterday afternoon's "Veitch on Sport"
NOTE: First link should open in a dropbox audio player. If not, click on the second link and you can download an mp3

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qewv310h08qvesj/vos-alan-jones-v-watto-august-12.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qewv310h08qvesj/vos-alan-jones-v-watto-august-12.mp3?dl=1

I think he's right about "regenerating the game at the bottom" . I think that the ARU made two crucial mistakes

1. They canned the ARC after only one season in 2007. If they had kept that running, it would be in its 10th year now, and Australian Rugby would be starting to reap the benefits. They reivnented that comp with the NRC in 2014, but the ARU MUST stay the course now, and find the money to keep it running. New Zealand's NPC (Mitre 10 Cup) runs at a loss. It costs the NZRU a bucketload of money, but they look past the money and see it as an investment; the dividend from their investement is a conveyor belt of new talented players

2. They demanded a fifth team in Super Rugby. What they have done is attempt to build Australian rugby from the top down, when they should be building it from the grassroots up. When they started with the Rebels, they didn't have enough quality players, so they had to get a dispensation from the ARU to import players to fill the gaps; three English players, four Japanese, two Irish, ten Kiwis two Welshmen and an American. This alone should have told them it was a mistake.

I must confess I used to agree with the first point about the NRC/ARC, but increasingly I feel that both it and Super Rugby have been bad models for Australian Rugby.

The issues in Australian Rugby are manifold, but much of the recent failures have been built on the fundamental structural weakness of Super Rugby and a misreading of where the strengths of Rugby lay in Australia.

1. Super Rugby: Even before the recent dogs-breakfast of a competition we have now, Super Rugby was a massively handicapped competition in Australia, and its viewership numbers reflected that. 2014 in particular that highlighted just how far off the pace the game was. The Waratahs' stellar championship season saw some decent crowds, but in TV land ratings never rose to what you'd call competitive, with the 2 decade drought-breaking GF garnering only around 640k viewers and failing to sell out ANZ stadium (got 60k, which ain't bad, but when you consider they get 80k for every origin match it's disappointing)

The problem is, and has always been that Rugby's primary competitors for viewership - the NRL and AFL (soccer is played in the summer so doesn't really count) - both have 4 days of prime time TV content each, with half their games being provided free of charge via the FTA networks. What this means is that the news cycle follows both codes incessantly throughout the year, priming people to think about them. You add into that the NRL's Origin period where the media in NSW and Qld become League obsessed, and you have yourself a serious exposure problem.

Ultimately, my sense is that the ARU's initial success with Super Rugby was largely built off the turmoil Rugby League experienced following the Super League war, when many disenfranchised and disillusioned Rugby League fans were looking to other sports for their tribal fix and Rugby fit the bill for lot of them given the similarities (provided the "private school boy" issue didn't bother them). Nevertheless, this was always a weak foundation built on the hope that the NRL couldn't recover. But with half the games played in the middle of the night, and all the games being played on Foxtel - which has never exceeded 30% penetration in Aus - the fundamental structure of the competition ensured it wasn't going to be able to hold the NRL back longer term. Sadly, it's turned out that the game has probably lost even more ground to the AFL in its "heartlands" of North and Eastern Sydney, where the AFL has spent millions buying their way into all the posh schools.

2. ARC/NRC: The way I see it, both of these competitions were born of a false assumption that the game would be better off starting with a clean slate and leaving all the old Sydney/Brisbane club identities behind. This idea was built on the experience of John O'Neil, who crafted the A-League under a similar theory. However, soccer's biggest problem in Australia was it's fans and the ethnic identities tied to the old NSL competition that made it exclusive and repellant to outsiders. This was never the case with club rugby in Australia. Indeed, the supporter base of these clubs maybe similarly small to the NSL, but they are the most passionate and hospitable fans you'll find in the country. For all the issues many of these clubs have faced financially, they still remain the backbone of development in Australia.

It's for this reason that increasingly I think the solution for Australia is to return to fundamentals and stop trying to superimpose structure from the top down like they have with both Super Rugby and the NRC/ARC. The NRC, like the ARC, has no tribal identity that either the rugby public or general public can identify with. It's transparently a development pathway and nothing more. That might work in NZ where it's played on TV, but the competitive strains the Australian market place on the model make it a bad option in my view.

3. Proposed solution: With all this in mind, I'm actually in favour of a root and branch restructure of the elite level of game in Australia. That means both scrapping the NRC and also completely pulling out of Super Rugby. Instead, what I propose is a 12 team national competition based on promotion and relegation of clubs in the Sydney, Brisbane and other city club competitions. Essentially, it'd work like club competitions in Europe where the teams in the National League get grants and can make themselves into much more elite level outfits.

The way it would work is like this - you start with the top 6 teams from Sydney and Brisbane, then the remaining teams form the lower league. Then the 3rd division could be made of teams in the Melbourne and Perth Leagues and so on. From a developmental standpoint the city competitions would then simply be the grade sides and they could remain in that format.

What this would allow for is organic bottom up development of the game based on old and established identities. People often counter that you need the designations of sides to be broad and inclusive, but I call bullshit on that. Collingwood in the AFL is one of the biggest football clubs in the country of any code and yet it represents a suburb of Melbourne that is around 3 blocks long. The only caveat I'd have would be that universities like Sydney couldn't be included, as they are the one identity type that are fundamentally exclusive and so would have to remain bound to the feeder competitions.

On top of this there would be a state representative competition that would operate more like the old AFL State of Origin series, where the best players from NSW, Qld, Victoria and WA would play in a series together for their own origin like shield. This would operate as a straight league table like the 6 Nations, and would form preparation going into the Rugby Championship.

I know some of you will think this is all pretty drastic, but with the state of the game as it is, I honestly feel that going back to basics like this and focussing on the forgotten and increasingly disgruntled people of club land would inject much need passion and hope back into the game.

A structure like the one I've suggested would give the game a top flight national competition built on old and established identities and rivalries, whilst also tapping into state and city rivalries. Gone would be the sense of disenfranchisement created by the NRC/ARC for club fans and gone would be the confusing Super Rugby mish mash of state and city identities played at odd hours against teams from places that don't even want to attach themselves to a region.
 
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That means both scrapping the NRC and also completely pulling out of Super Rugby..
have to totally agree with you here RoosTah. Aus need to consolidate and figure out whether the interest in Aus rugby is still there. pulling out of super is a ballsy move, that honestly Aus may never recover from, but its better than having to watch the slow decline that is ausSuperRugby teams.
i'm pretty disappointed in the Force getting removed, but it had to be one of them and tahs, QLD and brumbies were never going to go.
 
Yeah, I really don't get why the Force was bundled out.
because the ARU thought they'd be easier to bully . wasnt a case of getting rid of the worst team but a case of who would put up the least fight.

but this is a horrible decision.
 
To be fair the response from the Kiwis is twofold, "not our problem", which i think is naive, and "what can we do about it?"
its not NZ's problem because we didnt cause it. we could try and help but aus' dont listen. ive been harping on about grassroots in aus for decades but no one in aus cares. ARU will throuw money at the top of the pyramid but never at the base where grassroots is. NZ didnt cause this problem and aus doesnt want our help with it....other than joining our domestic competition, which isnt going to happen, because its domestic.

I would also dump the experiment with the Jaguares and Japan, which would help with the travel.
sunwolves and jaguares have done nothing wrong. not only do they bring two major markets to the table, theyve performed awwesome in their first couple of season. in fact the sunwolves games were much more enjoyable than watching an aus derby.
jaguares were at the top of their SA pool for a while and only 1 point less than the brumbies.
jaguares and sunwolves are towing the line and pulling their weight.
 
its not NZ's problem because we didnt cause it. we could try and help but aus' dont listen. ive been harping on about grassroots in aus for decades but no one in aus cares. ARU will throuw money at the top of the pyramid but never at the base where grassroots is. NZ didnt cause this problem and aus doesnt want our help with it....other than joining our domestic competition, which isnt going to happen, because its domestic.

This is a bit of an over simplification. The grass roots spending is an issue, but ultimately to recruit kids and manage growth you need a prime time elite product. Super Rugby has denied Australia that, and is a massive reason as to why the game has gone terminally ill in Australia. The model works ok in NZ, but you don't have the NRL and AFL breathing down your neck.
 
I was deeply skeptical about the adding on of extra Super rugby teams in the RSA and especially Australia where there just isnt the grass roots rugby union support capable of feeding the extra franchise with quality players.
This is not a 'toldja so' moment.
This is a time for reflection and sadness.
The Force had become a solid fixture on the Super rugby calendar and although they didn't set the world on fire they always did alright and they caused a few upsets along the way.
Finishing second in the Aussie conference is no great shakes in the current competition but when you look at that result through the magnifying glass of Aussie rugby its as good an effort as you could hope for under current circumstances.

However the money men at the top of SANZAR made their foolish choice and we moved on, to this...
The Force are a good side and rugby is small in WA but it's growing.
It takes time and like any young tenderling it needs nurturing it needs financial help and guidance.

The Force have been shafted.
The Rebels are precariously close to going out.
If the ARU is not careful we will be back to a three team Aussie conference.

What can NZ do to help?
Well... whatever it can I suppose.
The ARU have been notoriously difficult to work with over the decades. More about personalities than substance they have bickered among themselves acrimoniously at times, gone back on their word with the NZRFU and come across as surly when an olive branch would have seen progress.
Clean sweep at the ARU and start again with fresh ideas and a better attitude.
Start to build grass roots in rugby within Aussie and look at long term sponsorship to foster that development so the League-ies don't pinch the crop as it's maturing.
That would help a lot.
However it takes time. The catchmwent for rugby in Aussie is small compared to the population. It needs to be a long term investment.

The ARU has shot themselves in the foot by axeing the Force.
Thats real hard for the fans in WA.
Commiserations to them for their awful plight.
 
we need an intermediate provincial comp like the Mitre 10 cup - and I believe the best solution would be to expand the Mitre 10 cup to include a group of Aussie teams

I can't see it working for anyone, if you have a comp where Northland and Hawkes Bay fly all around Australia during the TRC.

But you could get away with maybe *one* Aussie team in each division... If you also get an Aussie team or two in each conference in the Japanese Top League, you could probably make it work.
(the Aussie teams would all vs each other in place of their inter-division / inter-conference games)

Then we can have a Mitre10 vs Top League KO challenge series and call it "Super Rugby 2nd division West Pacific".
 
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This is a bit of an over simplification. The grass roots spending is an issue, but ultimately to recruit kids and manage growth you need a prime time elite product. Super Rugby has denied Australia that, and is a massive reason as to why the game has gone terminally ill in Australia. The model works ok in NZ, but you don't have the NRL and AFL breathing down your neck.

I don't buy that nonsense for one second. The truth is that Australia has always had morons running the ARU, who always seem to be bigger and better than the game.

Australia used to produce legends in Rugby, like George Gregan, Stirling Mortlock, Chris Latham, John Eales, Matt Burke etc... All of them played Super Rugby, and they were competitive as hell. There was a time, no South African team could win in Australia, and dreaded that trip more than the trip to New Zealand. Crowds were packed to capacity which made the prospect of winning there for away teams even more daunting.

But then you started to have people like John O'Neill & Bill Pulver, who are IMHO terrible at their job. They are not focused on the core essentials of the sport and the sustainability of it, but more towards financial growth. Now I get that they are businessmen, and economics play a vital role, but by abandoning one area, for the sake of another is bound to catch up at a later stage.

If it wasn't for the influence of the likes of Mr. O'neill, ARU would never have been in the dire position it is now. He at one point basically held SANZAR hostage with his outrageous requests, and at the same time sticking it to South Africa.

The ARU only has themselves to blame, and seriously need some introspection.
 
I don't buy that nonsense for one second. The truth is that Australia has always had morons running the ARU, who always seem to be bigger and better than the game.

Australia used to produce legends in Rugby, like George Gregan, Stirling Mortlock, Chris Latham, John Eales, Matt Burke etc... All of them played Super Rugby, and they were competitive as hell. There was a time, no South African team could win in Australia, and dreaded that trip more than the trip to New Zealand. Crowds were packed to capacity which made the prospect of winning there for away teams even more daunting.

But then you started to have people like John O'Neill & Bill Pulver, who are IMHO terrible at their job. They are not focused on the core essentials of the sport and the sustainability of it, but more towards financial growth. Now I get that they are businessmen, and economics play a vital role, but by abandoning one area, for the sake of another is bound to catch up at a later stage.

If it wasn't for the influence of the likes of Mr. O'neill, ARU would never have been in the dire position it is now. He at one point basically held SANZAR hostage with his outrageous requests, and at the same time sticking it to South Africa.

The ARU only has themselves to blame, and seriously need some introspection.

The ARU is badly run, but if you don't think the structure of Super Rugby is a problem in a market like Australia where you have 2 multibillion dollar contact football codes that are aggressively competing for talent, fans and sponsorship dollars, then frankly you have rocks in your head.

It's hard for you blokes who live in less competitive and varied sports markets to understand, but the business side of it really is simple math. I've explained it above in more detail if you want to understand why it might be harder to get Super Rugby in a market like Sydney - where there are 9 NRL teams and 2 AFL teams - than it is in say Jo'Burg where if you wanna watch a contact football code Rugby is your only real option.
 
The ARU is badly run, but if you don't think the structure of Super Rugby is a problem in a market like Australia where you have 2 multibillion dollar contact football codes that are aggressively competing for talent, fans and sponsorship dollars, then frankly you have rocks in your head.

It's hard for you blokes who live in less competitive and varied sports markets to understand, but the business side of it really is simple math. I've explained it above in more detail if you want to understand why it might be harder to get Super Rugby in a market like Sydney - where there are 9 NRL teams and 2 AFL teams - than it is in say Jo'Burg where if you wanna watch a contact football code Rugby is your only real option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it John O'Neill who proposed the structure of Super Rugby and the introduction of the Conference System???

If you want to point a finger at Super Rugby's structure and that it's in disarray, then point those other four fingers at the ARU who wanted this disarrayed system.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it John O'Neill who proposed the structure of Super Rugby and the introduction of the Conference System???

If you want to point a finger at Super Rugby's structure and that it's in disarray, then point those other four fingers at the ARU who wanted this disarrayed system.
Where have I said that the ARU aren't culpable? They are massively - especially for not understanding the importance of FTA early in SR's existence. In no way am I pointing the finger at other countries, I'm simply pointing out that the structure of elite rugby in Australia has doomed it due to the vastly more competitive football landscape here.
 
Where have I said that the ARU aren't culpable? They are massively - especially for not understanding the importance of FTA early in SR's existence. In no way am I pointing the finger at other countries, I'm simply pointing out that the structure of elite rugby in Australia has doomed it due to the vastly more competitive football landscape here.

We get it. But beggars can't be choosers...
 
We get it. But beggars can't be choosers...

Of course they can. The ARU were just stupid or gutless. Te choice was a short term illusion of success followed by a slow death versus limited early nourishment with slow but steady and sustainable growth. They chose the former.
 
its not NZ's problem because we didnt cause it. we could try and help but aus' dont listen. ive been harping on about grassroots in aus for decades but no one in aus cares. ARU will throuw money at the top of the pyramid but never at the base where grassroots is. NZ didnt cause this problem and aus doesnt want our help with it....other than joining our domestic competition, which isnt going to happen, because its domestic.

There is a great example of this back when the ARU had their financial boom time both before and after the 2003 RWC. They had money to spend alright, but did they spend it on the grassroots of the game? No, they squandered it buying has-been league players like Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuquiri, Mat Rogers amd Ryan Cross.
 
I've explained it above in more detail if you want to understand why it might be harder to get Super Rugby in a market like Sydney - where there are 9 NRL teams and 2 AFL teams - than it is in say Jo'Burg where if you wanna watch a contact football code Rugby is your only real option.

So that makes it even harder to explain why the ARU would want to keep the Rebels in a "contact football" market where it has to compete with 1 NRL team, 10 AFL teams and 15 VFL teams for the punter's dollar.
 
So that makes it even harder to explain why the ARU would want to keep the Rebels in a "contact football" market where it has to compete with 1 NRL team, 10 AFL teams and 15 VFL teams for the punter's dollar.
Yep
 
So that makes it even harder to explain why the ARU would want to keep the Rebels in a "contact football" market where it has to compete with 1 NRL team, 10 AFL teams and 15 VFL teams for the punter's dollar.

Because they had no option, legally.
 
What can NZ do to help?
Well... whatever it can I suppose.
The ARU have been notoriously difficult to work with over the decades. More about personalities than substance they have bickered among themselves acrimoniously at times, gone back on their word with the NZRFU and come across as surly when an olive branch would have seen progress.
Clean sweep at the ARU and start again with fresh ideas and a better attitude.

As I said, the question of what NZ can do is a difficult one, but i dont think its melodramatic to say that the future of Super Rugby is at stake, and I doubt that NZ Rugby can really afford to have it fall over. The clear and obvious move of SA teams into Europe add to the danger. For those reasons I think its important NZ Rugby at least give consideration to thinking outside the box about what can be done.

Unfortunately I am not very optimistic, a few of us have discussed the sort of radical changes that might result in a better outcome, but lets face it, the ARU and SANZAR have shown no appetite whatsoever for making the hard decisions, the Force farce is symptomatic of the problem. Even if NZ did make overtones to help rebuild the game, say along the path of opening up the NZ provincial comp, I really doubt the ARU would be capable of giving it serious consideration.

I expect the situation will just slowly get worse, the Rebels are unviable, its just a matter of time before they fold or send the ARU broke, so that will leave us with just 3 Aus sides, I still think the Jaguares/Sun Wolves experiment is doomed, and very likely we will see more SA sides move to Europe. I cant see Super Rugby lasting more than 3 more years. I suspect NZ rugby will survive as it has no real domestic challenger as a winter sport anyway, but I am much more doubtful that the game we love will survive in any significant form in Australia.
 
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