Welsh regions eye new tournament with the English

[j'nuh]

Dont see what we would get from this, would rather Nottingham, Bristol, Leeds etc got a chance to play in the AP than Ospreys, Blues, Scarlets or Dragons.

The competition would gain far more from having a well-run Ospreys/Cardiff than Nottingham. Nottingham, Bristol and Leeds just bounce between the two leagues, if even that. It's the same teams going up and down every year. Ospreys, Cardiff and Scarlets offer tougher fixtures.

The England national team wouldn't gain from it, but sod them. I'm more interested in what's good for the Premiership.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I despise the Welsh regions. A short sighted bunch of clowns with no idea have to look after their own interests nor those of Welsh rugby. A few things:

a) The English club don't need them. They've got a strong domestic competition that appears to be getting more competitive while the second tier has been improving dramatically in the past few seasons. Exeter and London Welsh have shown that promotion is possible and then some, while Bristol have demonstrated that it isn't as easy to get back into the AP as it once was. Through Saracens and Harlequins a new generation of strong teams has emerged, while Leicester and Northampton remain in the hunt as traditional powers. Were I involved in the English club scene I'd have a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality to this situation.

b) The Welsh regions have proven largely uncompetitive at European level. It therefore stands to reason that they'd be only occupying the middle standings of the league. Is there any benefit for English Rugby to have Scarlets 6th as opposed to Bath or Gloucester? Not really.

c) The regions are moronic. At no point have they made any real effort to embrace the Celtic League. As a competition, it could be great. The Irish temas are always there or there abouts, and attendances have generally increased over the years on this side of the Irish sea. The Welsh regions are very much comparable, and while having won a number of ***les have never been able to attract the crowds they should, nor truly embrace the competition, as evidenced by this latest attempt to weasel out. The Celtic League is indeed poor, and the Welsh are right in saying it, but it more their fault than any of the other organizations taking part to be honest.

 

[psychic duck]

Its the usual same old sh!te with the Welsh.


Anything to distract from the real issue. They are by-and-by large, a bunch of glory hunters that only show up to watch the national side. The regions have never had good attendance. The Welsh premiership? Ha.

Ospreys had big names... did they have big attendances? No they did not.
Ospreys win the league... did they have big attendances? No they did not.
So its not driven by star players or by results.

Bottom line is - rugby would appear to be a not well supported game in Wales. The national team are doing well to punch above their weight considering, but sooner or later it will come back to bite them on the arse and the whole deck of cards will collapse. [Unless the general Welsh public start to put their money where their mouths are and support the game through the various levels.]

Same with Scotland and Italy. Fill out Murrayfield and Stadio Olimpico, barely any attendance domestically.

I despise the Welsh regions. A short sighted bunch of clowns with no idea have to look after their own interests nor those of Welsh rugby. A few things:

a) The English club don't need them. They've got a strong domestic competition that appears to be getting more competitive while the second tier has been improving dramatically in the past few seasons. Exeter and London Welsh have shown that promotion is possible and then some, while Bristol have demonstrated that it isn't as easy to get back into the AP as it once was. Through Saracens and Harlequins a new generation of strong teams has emerged, while Leicester and Northampton remain in the hunt as traditional powers. Were I involved in the English club scene I'd have a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality to this situation.

b) The Welsh regions have proven largely uncompetitive at European level. It therefore stands to reason that they'd be only occupying the middle standings of the league. Is there any benefit for English Rugby to have Scarlets 6th as opposed to Bath or Gloucester? Not really.

c) The regions are moronic. At no point have they made any real effort to embrace the Celtic League. As a competition, it could be great. The Irish temas are always there or there abouts, and attendances have generally increased over the years on this side of the Irish sea. The Welsh regions are very much comparable, and while having won a number of ***les have never been able to attract the crowds they should, nor truly embrace the competition, as evidenced by this latest attempt to weasel out. The Celtic League is indeed poor, and the Welsh are right in saying it, but it more their fault than any of the other organizations taking part to be honest.

Agree about the fact English have little to gain by adding Welsh, only really Welsh have something to gain. Also agree that WRU and Welsh regions and basically any one in control there is at fault for their constant selfish bickering.

However I disagree about the Pro12 being in a poor state mainly because of the Welsh. The Irish teams constantly make it lose credibility with their player welfare scheme pulling players out of the side so often. Numerous times this season Leinster or Munster have had a side of just kids.

Meanwhile, Scotland and Italy get far worse attendances than even Wales, and likewise especially in the latter's case is that they are constantly resting internationals. The reason the league is struggling is because it doesn't matter enough to any of the teams in it which is all nations fault. Leinster's season would only be passed as average even if they win the league as they got knocked out early in the Heineken Cup. If that happened to Leicester or Harlequins winning the league would be nearly as good. I don't see how it is Wales' fault more than the rest.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm not sure about this, but is every Pro12 game involving Ireland broadcasted on free-to-view TV in Ireland? Because most (nearly every single?) Welsh game is put on either BBC 2 Wales or S4C. I'm hoping Sky will take the rights. It should both inject more money, and push more people away from their TV sets and into the stadiums. (At least that's my hope.)

I also think the English have a lot to gain from having the likes of the Ospreys in the Premiership. Maybe not the national team, but definitely the product that the Premiership is. Last season, there were 4 clubs that got average attendances of 8000 or less: Exeter, Sale, Wasps, Newcastle. Some of these teams have long traditions in the Premiership. If Ospreys/Cardiff reached their potential, I think they'd easily overtake these teams in attendance.

 

[McTallshort]

The competition would gain far more from having a well-run Ospreys/Cardiff than Nottingham. Nottingham, Bristol and Leeds just bounce between the two leagues, if even that. It's the same teams going up and down every year. Ospreys, Cardiff and Scarlets offer tougher fixtures.

The England national team wouldn't gain from it, but sod them. I'm more interested in what's good for the Premiership.

No sorry disagree, we need to look after the club game in England. Give the likes of Bristol and Nottingham the chance of 1 season in the AP not a region from Wales the attendances are about the same. Why should we split the BT money with them (thats all they are really after) after brokering the deal. How would they take relegation? Premiership rugby could do it as all you really need to join is to buy shares but I would rather the chance went to an English club not a Welsh region.

 

[profitius]

1 or 2 matches are on every week on RTE or TG4. All of Ulsters home matches are on BBC NI.

However I disagree about the Pro12 being in a poor state mainly because of the Welsh. The Irish teams constantly make it lose credibility with their player welfare scheme pulling players out of the side so often. Numerous times this season Leinster or Munster have had a side of just kids.

Meanwhile, Scotland and Italy get far worse attendances than even Wales, and likewise especially in the latter's case is that they are constantly resting internationals. The reason the league is struggling is because it doesn't matter enough to any of the teams in it which is all nations fault. Leinster's season would only be passed as average even if they win the league as they got knocked out early in the Heineken Cup. If that happened to Leicester or Harlequins winning the league would be nearly as good. I don't see how it is Wales' fault more than the rest.

I think thats a bit of a myth. Between injuries and international matches there are going to be more players missing. Irish teams have invested heavily in their squads so they remain competitive throughout the season. Last summer the SRU invested money in building up Glasgow and Edinburghs squads. Edinburgh made bad signings but Glasgow are on top of the league now due to this.

 

[McTallshort]

1 or 2 matches are on every week on RTE or TG4. All of Ulsters home matches are on BBC NI.




I think thats a bit of a myth. Between injuries and international matches there are going to be more players missing. Irish teams have invested heavily in their squads so they remain competitive throughout the season. Last summer the SRU invested money in building up Glasgow and Edinburghs squads. Edinburgh made bad signings but Glasgow are on top of the league now due to this.

Ok forgive me if I am wrong but dont the Irish regions have a larger salary than the welsh ones and dont the players get tax breaks for staying with the region?

 

[Conal]

Ok forgive me if I am wrong but dont the Irish regions have a larger salary than the welsh ones and dont the players get tax breaks for staying with the region?

the republic get tax incentives so all bar ulster, but they basically have to stay most of their career
i think there is higher pay but mainly due to more bums on seats and the irfu's central contracts. which both gives the irfu more control over players and free's up provinces funds for more squad players.

we have higher pay as we have invested more in our teams creating better pro outfits. which inturn attracts better sponsors and donors.

 

[dullonien]

Why would anyone want this?

It would be totally unacceptable to leave Ireland, Scotland and Italy in the lurch by abandoning the Pro12. The Pro12 would be rendered useless without the Welsh regions, as it would without the Irish Provinces. The Irish provinces certainly aren't holding us back, whilst there are signs of improvements in the Scottish clubs, and the two Italian teams are improving.

There are two options. The first is to stick to the same format, but work hard to increase the quality and competition of the Pro12. The second is for the Pro12 and Aviva to combine, creating a British and Irish competition. There is nothing but headaches to get that second option working as it would involve a restructuring of the English system, reducing the amount of teams by half. It would also encroach upon the Heineken Cup.

Ultimately, whatever the Welsh regions have suggested is a load of bs. Nothing will come of it. It's just a way for them to try to pressurise the WRU.

 

[Amiga500]

Ultimately, I think the big mistake in Wales was the WRU not owning the regions from the outset. Many of the other problems stem from that.

That needs to be reversed. I *suspect* the WRU knows this, and are maneuvering the regions into very weak bargaining positions prior to any take-over attempts. It is a pity that the WRU and the region owners are so self centred they cannot meet halfway to sort it out and that this is deemed necessary pain before the gain.

 

[munstermuffin]

Conal you are wrong. They just have to end playing career in Ireland and have played 5 seasons over their career for tx scheme.
As for this I think it welsh regions thinking they're better than they are. Ospreys are only 1 that does ok in Pro12 and none of them perform in HEC. They can say Irish provinces ruin it with welfare scheme but its consistently the Irish provinces around the top and even when changes are made the provinces are still as competitive and well players like Madigan are discovered this way and now look at him (except for that wig on him )

 

[Conal]

Conal you are wrong. They just have to end playing career in Ireland and have played 5 seasons over their career for tax scheme.

ah fair enough . i only knew the rough edges of it , but still helps player retention

 

[TrueSlawter]

I don't see it happening really.. but one issue with the regions that I see is still their boundaries (this is in terms of why having low attendances). They are only 10 years old now (almost) and there are still lots of fans who support the older clubs over the regions (ponty v cardiff for a big example) it's too soon in a sense for some to jump ship to the old enemy. In a few years time I can see attendances improving a bit. Also the WRU owning the regions outright wouldn't have made that much of a differences personally, the bickering regarding contracts etc would be sorted but other issues would remain.

 

[Thingimubob]

The recent rise of Welsh Football isn't helping us at the moment either, only gonna get worse if Cardiff get promoted to the Premier League too (very likely). As TrueSlawter said, regions aren't even 10 years old yet, a lot of people are struggling to find any reason to support them without the history that the Irish and English have. The football clubs however have a lot of history and fanatical fan bases, which have only grown from their recent success. The 'casual viewer' is being lost too - I know a lot of people from studying in Swansea who'd much rather go see a Premier League match in the Liberty, rather than go see the Ospreys play in the Pro12.
The Ponty - Blues thing is a bit daft, Pontypridd get very similar attendances at Sardis Road to what the Blues get at the Arms Park, and definitely got more than what turned up at the City Stadium! The whole idea of adding Ponty to the Cardiff region was just ridiculous to be fair, loads of historical rivalry there, so of course it wasn't going to work!

With the whole dispute, I can say I'm backing the WRU, as for once they're actually trying to be reasonable and try to find a way out, but the regions are being stubborn as hell. I'm still baffled why they signed that agreement not to field players who recieve any funding from teh WRU - so in other words completely rejecting the central contracts that would be a good start to fixing these problems.

 

[TrueSlawter]

They agreed that central contracts were the answer then sign that agreement made no sense for me either. As I can't remember the name said on scrumV the other night get the top 20-25 players on central contracts on one year rolling deals if possible. As new guys step up the contracts get swapped about a bit where needed.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's nothing to do with age though. It was at the start and poor setting up and planning (ie WRU should of looked at IRFU and SRU) and followed trend and well owned the provinces/regions (even retain 50%) and use it smartly as a base for pooling players from national game. Also it'd have allowed them earn more money from monies gained through regions and spend wisely. Also they'd save alot having to cover all the expenses and fees they pay to french clubs at the moment for release of players and their travel etc

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I don't blame the Welsh clubs for wanting this. From a purely financial perspective, joining up with the Premiership makes sense for them in the short term - bigger TV and sponsorship deals, less travel. The IRB will never allow it though since it will have a hugely negative effect on Scotland, Italy and Ireland.

Hypothesizing, the nuclear scenario is the Welsh regions and Premiership join up. The IRB reject it, the clubs go ahead anyway and their players are banned from international duty. Compromise is reached eventually and we have a British and Irish League and a continental European league (France and Italy). Does rugby benefit from that?

 

[Peat]

They agreed that central contracts were the answer then sign that agreement made no sense for me either. As I can't remember the name said on scrumV the other night get the top 20-25 players on central contracts on one year rolling deals if possible. As new guys step up the contracts get swapped about a bit where needed.

If I were a top Welsh player, I would be considering getting out of Wales the moment that was announced. Why would I accept the insecurity of a contract that could disappear at any moment when I could easily get a 2 or 3 year contract elsewhere?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

If I were a top Welsh player, I would be considering getting out of Wales the moment that was announced. Why would I accept the insecurity of a contract that could disappear at any moment when I could easily get a 2 or 3 year contract elsewhere?

Seems to work for NZ and Ireland ...

 

[Peat]

Seems to work for NZ and Ireland ...

Can't speak for Kiwi central contracts, but Irish central contracts are pretty much all two years or longer - standard job security in other words.