Warm Up Match 5: Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Rotorua)

[mania]

I said before the game the key player for the maoris was TKB and my biggest worry was Ben May and I think I was 100% right.

mostly agree larksea.
hames was just as guilty as bMay at different scrums.
i too thought bMay would be a weakness with some of the dumb decisions he's prone to do but he didnt in this game. his scrummaging wasnt great, due to poor technique, but he wasnt as exposed as i thought he wouldve been.
eDixon didnt front at all. in fact i was wondering whether he was playing? pryor shouldve started but i doubt this wouldve helped the tight5 at all.
messam and akira had massive games.
dMac was found wanting, but this happens to beauden as well when he's behind a retreating pack.
tight5 were owned.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I don't understand why the Lions fans here, particularly the English guys are so down on their own team during the game.
The Lions played a strong game but you English blokes really love to rip your own team to shreds, during the game, when you're own team is playing well.
I'm sorry I just don't get that.
I watched the game again and the Lions were pretty damn dominant across the park and they monstered the Maori pack.
That laid a great platform for them at all the ensuing set pieces and restarts.
The Maoris were never allowed out of the blocks.
So, when the Lions give that kind of performance, and you go back and look at what particularly the English guys are posting about individual members of the team, you can only think that you blokes must be watching a different game.
How about getting behind your team instead of tearing them apart piece by piece.??
They are trying their best to gel and it takes time.
Two strong Saturday performances against two good Saturday opposition teams, the Lions are also running the midweek games very close on the scoreboard as well.
Try and be positive about your team.
They are doing a pretty good job, especially when comapared to Woodwards lot in 2005.

 

[Five Meters Out]

I've always thought Ben May is a weak link in the Hurricanes forward pack. He's been outscrumed many times, and Saturday's efforts came as no surprise to me.
As for the Lions - They have some quality players in key positions and a set in stone game plan. I reckon there's a fair chance they could suffocate the All Blacks just as they have Crusaders and Maori. NZRU needed to schedule all three tests in Dunedin under the roof to be sure of a series victory.

 

[mania]

I don't understand why the Lions fans here, particularly the English guys are so down on their own team during the game.

agree. i'm enjoying this tour way more than i thought i would. lions are showing fire, brutality and muscle. they could easily beat the ABs this weekend.

I've always thought Ben May is a weak link in the Hurricanes forward pack.

its a real shame because he's got the goods. tall and incredibly strong, but along with his suspect technique at scrum time more worringly is how he also makes some really basic bad decisions a couple times a game. for a tight5 forward he still doesnt understand the basics of the darkArts.

 

[smartcooky]

silly to write players off or even judge them or their potential one performance. dmac has had an amazing two seasons, this game is 1 of maybe 2-3 games in the last 2 years he hasn't been a standout in.

I dont think the positional change was the issue because he plays at 10 a fair bit for the chiefs even though he has 15 on his back. I think it was more to do with being in a team that had a short time frame together with what turned out to be an under powered tight 5, with other issues against what was a very good lions side..

It isn't just this one performance. I was not all that impressed with his debut game against Los Pumas in Buenos Aires last year either. He subbed on with 30 minutes to go and made little impact from the bench. Even when he started at fullback in a game that was made for him, against Italy on the NH tour, where the All Blacks ran riot (68-10) he was not as impressive as he should have been.

 

[Nubiwan]

I don't understand why the Lions fans here, particularly the English guys are so down on their own team during the game.
The Lions played a strong game but you English blokes really love to rip your own team to shreds, during the game, when you're own team is playing well.
I'm sorry I just don't get that.
I watched the game again and the Lions were pretty damn dominant across the park and they monstered the Maori pack.
That laid a great platform for them at all the ensuing set pieces and restarts.
The Maoris were never allowed out of the blocks.
So, when the Lions give that kind of performance, and you go back and look at what particularly the English guys are posting about individual members of the team, you can only think that you blokes must be watching a different game.
How about getting behind your team instead of tearing them apart piece by piece.??
They are trying their best to gel and it takes time.
Two strong Saturday performances against two good Saturday opposition teams, the Lions are also running the midweek games very close on the scoreboard as well.
Try and be positive about your team.
They are doing a pretty good job, especially when comapared to Woodwards lot in 2005.

It's all those years of disappointment mate. If we set ourselves up to fail, then anything approaching a tight contest against the ABs will be seen as a plus. Give us our moments of depression and doubt if you don't mind.

Thought the Maori line up capable of much better, but simply had no time to prepare for a game against a side that's rather struggled to convincingly put away quasi provincial teams. Let's not cloud the issue because of one decent win in 4. Anyway, my issue is not that the lions played well, indeed dominated, but that the Maori game is now the yardstick for the test side. Not sure that is fair to the tougher contests that came before it. I thought the Maori were the weakest side the lions have faced. Not perhaps on paper, but just in preparation and application.

Still, got me fingers crossed for the weekend. We might surprise oursleves even

 

[smartcooky]

The All Black pack is on another planet, in particular the tight 5 and #7. I think the key takeaway for this game from an All Black perspective was how the Lions operated at the rucks, be prepared for that.

They also need to be prepared for the Lions' rush defence to be offside for the whole 80 minutes, and for the referee and ARs to do absolutely nothing about it. Read (if he plays, or whoever the captain is) as well as A. Smith and TJP need to keep in the ear of the referee about offside backs. Learn the French word for offside, "Hors-jeu" (pronounced) or-jer.... repeat it often. It may not be effective straight away, but it will help to keep it top of his mind.

Chips over the top and wipers kicks with chasers will help to keep the Lions' backs honest. If they bring the full back up to cover the kicks, this could leave space and the back; if they drop their wingers back to cover, there will be space out wide; if they keep a midfielder back as a sweeper, there could be gaps.

 

[Skylinerd1]

^^ Agreed the only way the coming weekend test is going to be difficult for the AB's is if the refs make it so. Which is pretty much guaranteed from what we've seen so far especially since the reff for the maoris is reffing the first test.... Not saying he was bad but they do seem to be giving the lions alot of leeway on that offside line which I think is complete BS. The powers that be want to make a game of it obviously.

In saying that we cant really complain as we know what to expect. The AB's should be good enough to overcome that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Historically the ABs pack has never once strayed offside
#Justice7Richie

 

[The Jones Boy]

Know the laws, know the boundaries, then work the angles to see what the referee is going to accept.
England used to have the best sniffer in the world in a bloke called Neil Best.
Funnily enough, they won a RWC when he was playing.
Sam Underhill may see the second coming of that kind of pack all over again as he is a genuine sniffer,
I don't understand why more teams don't play a sniffer at open side.
It gives the team a real advantage at the breakdown to have a loonie with no interest in their own well being to throw themselves into the meat grinder to secure the pill.

 

[smartcooky]

Historically the ABs pack has never once strayed offside
#Justice7Richie

I'd like to see them penalised too because it helps to open the game up, but even the most ardent, one-eyed Lions fan has to admit that their team has greatly benefited from being allowed to be offside at the ruck on this tour. When a referee is slack on policing offside at the ruck, it is of much more benefit to a team that wants to shut the game down and turn it into a defensive armwrestle, than it is to a team that wants an open running game.

 

[Nubiwan]

Know the laws, know the boundaries, then work the angles to see what the referee is going to accept.
England used to have the best sniffer in the world in a bloke called Neil Best.
Funnily enough, they won a RWC when he was playing.
Sam Underhill may see the second coming of that kind of pack all over again as he is a genuine sniffer,
I don't understand why more teams don't play a sniffer at open side.
It gives the team a real advantage at the breakdown to have a loonie with no interest in their own well being to throw themselves into the meat grinder to secure the pill.

Perhaps it is Neil Back you are referring to. I agree, a tormenting digger, with little or no appreciation for his own bodies well being, is something that seems to come along once every 5-10 years, then disappear from the game. I can only think of a handful of players I either played with, or against, who simply made enemies at the bottom of rucks, under the old laws, and rather took a shiit kicking for their troubles in every match. Back was one of those players. Least I think it was Back.

 

[smartcooky]

Perhaps it is Neil Back you are referring to. I agree, a tormenting digger, with little or no appreciation for his own bodies well being, is something that seems to come along once every 5-10 years, then disappear from the game. I can only think of a handful of players I either played with, or against, who simply made enemies at the bottom of rucks, under the old laws, and rather took a shiit kicking for their troubles in every match. Back was one of those players. Least I think it was Back.

Yep. I was almost convinced that Neil Back suffered from congenital analgesia!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't understand why the Lions fans here, particularly the English guys are so down on their own team during the game.
The Lions played a strong game but you English blokes really love to rip your own team to shreds, during the game, when you're own team is playing well.
I'm sorry I just don't get that.
I watched the game again and the Lions were pretty damn dominant across the park and they monstered the Maori pack.
That laid a great platform for them at all the ensuing set pieces and restarts.
The Maoris were never allowed out of the blocks.
So, when the Lions give that kind of performance, and you go back and look at what particularly the English guys are posting about individual members of the team, you can only think that you blokes must be watching a different game.
How about getting behind your team instead of tearing them apart piece by piece.??
They are trying their best to gel and it takes time.
Two strong Saturday performances against two good Saturday opposition teams, the Lions are also running the midweek games very close on the scoreboard as well.
Try and be positive about your team.
They are doing a pretty good job, especially when comapared to Woodwards lot in 2005.

[/QUOTE]

Couple of things.
I'm not sure which players are being criticised? I can't actually remember from the match thread. With a few exceptions I would have thought its about the decisions we've taken as a team.
I think we all accept that it was a strong performance. The issue for me is proper preparation has to be targeted at the larger challenge. I feel like in the last 20 minutes against the Maori we got a bad case of tunnel-vision. We lost sight of the need to prepare for the All-Blacks by seeing what other tools we had in the box. Once you've already smashed the Maori pack and won the game, what incremental value is there in winning more scrum penalties? What more do you learn about your team in those circumstances?` Finding a way to somehow achieve a wining tour is all about maximising your opportunities to gather information. If they think the all-black pack will capitulate in the same way as the Maori then they don't know enough about the all-blacks. I take your point that it's all about building and improving, but the roundedness of that performance was certainly not enough to beat the all-blacks.

One other point is that personally I don't find the gap between the mid-week and test sides satisfactory. If you look at the individuals on paper, there isn't a gap in quality except in maybe 3 positions, and they're all international players. There should have been tighter competition for places, but in the end Gatlands job has seemed unexpectedly easy.[

 

[Nubiwan]

One other point is that personally I don't find the gap between the mid-week and test sides satisfactory. If you look at the individuals on paper, there isn't a gap in quality except in maybe 3 positions, and they're all international players. There should have been tighter competition for places, but in the end Gatlands job has seemed unexpectedly easy.[

This sums it up for me. There is not a great void in the supposed test and midweek sides, and the midweek games have arguably been more challenging. Many would argue we were fortunate against the Crusaders, but it was still reasonably solid, as was the Maori effort. Thought the Maori just poor, but as you say, we never were able to turn the screws, and find out what else we have in our locker. Rather, stuck to form and the recipe. At some point, in this tour, we will feel the need to spin it out wide, and it will be a brand new experience for us, and hard to predict how we will react. My guess is we will just be hurried into making errors. Stuff we could have been working on in the build up to tests. All rather one dimensional.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Perhaps it is Neil Back you are referring to. I agree, a tormenting digger, with little or no appreciation for his own bodies well being, is something that seems to come along once every 5-10 years, then disappear from the game. I can only think of a handful of players I either played with, or against, who simply made enemies at the bottom of rucks, under the old laws, and rather took a shiit kicking for their troubles in every match. Back was one of those players. Least I think it was Back.

My apologies, it was Neil Back.
I was having a senior moment.
DoH!
He was awesome for England, tough as nails, always pushing the envelope with the ref, he was a world class sniffer. he made a real difference to the English pack and how much possession they could garner and the likes of him has ne'er been seen since he left the playing side of the game.
Maybe Underhill...

 

[MikeTheNative]

Underhill looks good but he's a more of a bruising 7 than a breakdown specialist, not that's he's bad at it mind.

 

[Groundhog]

Neil Best hahaha. To clarify Neil Best was the biggest psychopath to ever play for Ireland, who it shouldn't surprise you to hear did some time in the Supermax of a rugby team they call Northampton Saints where he got an 18 week ban for crimes against the Hask. Paul O'Connell also nearly killed him with a punch in training if I recall.
Totally irrelevant, but I'd forgotten Neil Best was a thing.

 

[Jakedood]

Neil Best hahaha. To clarify Neil Best was the biggest psychopath to ever play for Ireland, who it shouldn't surprise you to hear did some time in the Supermax of a rugby team they call Northampton Saints where he got an 18 week ban.

He was too much for even them to handle! His nights out ended with seriously broken faces... the stories of his time in ulster are amazing

 

[Nubiwan]

My apologies, it was Neil Back.
I was having a senior moment.
DoH!
He was awesome for England, tough as nails, always pushing the envelope with the ref, he was a world class sniffer. he made a real difference to the English pack and how much possession they could garner and the likes of him has ne'er been seen since he left the playing side of the game.
Maybe Underhill...

Lad I had the pleasure of playing with util about 10 years ago was a Kiwi from Otago. Hardly ever finished a game looking 10 years older and covered in blood from a cut somewhere. The obligatory rake marks covering his back. He was a frigging menace, and always drew the attention of the opponents. Hard as nails. Great to play 9 or 10 behind him.