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Wales V Argentina

Feicarsinn

No disrespect intended. I have seen the takes enough. I know the ruels very well. I am a coach and have referee experience and plenty of player experience. I know the offside laws and I know the referee's calls cost Argentina significantly and that is not good enough at this level. If you honestly think the ref was good and thsat Wales deserved their tries then good for you. Thats over to you. But, I will not agree with you as I have already provided enough evidence to show why your point of view is problematic.

Seriously, I do not care about the result. I wanted Argentina to win but thought they would lose. It is unfortunate that they lost but more so that the referee was utterly wrong and it cost them and that fans on forums fail, depsite clear video facts, to acknowledge this. 2 false tries awarded. Video is there. No need to continue with this as it as proven 100%. Say waht ever you like about 50/50 calls but that only goes to further my pointy about the scrum and breakdown calls which could have gone either way but all went to Wales.

Thingimubob

Firstly, I repeat, Argentinas should not have won this game. They are too injury depleted to compete with a team like Wales.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I disagree, Charteris did make an effort to get behind the offside line, the question is did he go back enough?[/b]
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As the video shows, no he did not get back far enough. He was offside. It is clear as the video shows.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
If he was offside it was only marginal.[/b]
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Marginally offside = offside. You are not saying he was onside, are you? Again, I repeat, the video shows he was offside.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I'm not sure with the Rees tackle, I don't see it as late because he looked very much commited. Not sure with the shoulder chqarge thing though, it may or may not have been. Just one of those 50 - 50 calls I guess. And anyway, I looked at your video, and if you look at how Lobbe got the ball in the 1st place, you see Roncero taking out Cooper off the ball, or did that escape your notice? There was a lot of that the from the Argie front row, a lot of penalties for taking players out off the ball, hands in the ruck and not rolling away. More than a cause for a sin bin? As Bristol-iain said, Ledesma gave away a string fo 3 penalties in the space fo a few minutes. Can;t see how Paul James was 'cheating'? Brian Moore had a bit of a rant about him 'not binding on the shirt, but on on the arm', which was a bit wtf because when they did a close up shot Paul James was gripping the shirt just under the arm pit area. But then again, it's Brian Moore, he likes the sound of his own voice having a rant.[/b]
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I understand your point but must stress that Argentina were hard done by at scrum time. It is evident with Wales failing to bind correctly and Roncero concessing a penalty which was 50/50. Lobbe talked to the ref who failed to clarify what the penalty was for. Add to this the two tries that were awarded to Wales when they were not tries at all ans ask the obvious quesiotn: is this referee poor? Argentina, in the scrums, were let down by a referee who failed to see Wales binding incorrectly. It enabled Paul James, in particular, to look like a decent player. No disrespect intended.

Interstingly, I have posted the video elsewhere and have got 100% agreement with my post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Ah and of course this was a full strength Wales side? No Adam Jones, Ian Evans, Mike Phillips, Gavin Henson, Tom Shanklin or Lee Byrne? All Grandslam winners and all, bar one, British and Irish Lions? We've been lacking creativity this Autumn because players like Phillips, Henson and Byrne are some of the ones that spark things off for us. Byrnes running lines and Hensons passing skills have been sorely missed. And what has a match played over 3 years ago in Argentina with an out of sorts young Wales side (James Hook was making his full debut - and he was still playing for semi-pro Neath at the time) coached by one of the worst coaches we've had for a long time, got to do with this match? Three years is a long time, and Wales have improved massively under Warren Gatland, so I doubt we'd have lost by 15 - 20 points. It would have been a completely different match, but not a one-sided thrashing to Argentina.[/b]
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Roberts is first choice over Henson actually. I would go for Halfpenny over Byrne too. Adan Jones is first choice but not overly goo. Certainly no match for either Roncero or Ayerza. Phillips, do you rate him, honestly? Peel on his day is better. Shanklin, yes he was missed. The Lions lost the series btw, so your point is not so good. But, look, I see your point but none of these players are the class of Hernandez. None are as good as Contepomi or Leguizamon either. The situation facing Argentina this month should not be ignored or talked down. The teams playing England and Wales did not have full professionals playing 6, 7, 9, 10, 11 or 12. Thes eare all based on injuries not form or selection. Argentina's top 3 wingers are all injured. Argentina's top 3 10's are all injured. Argentina's top 2 12's are both injured. Argentina's backrow is without three of their top 4 players. It is hard to play with so many players injured and when ones team plays so infrequently. Do you honestly think Wales, with Byrne and co back are a better side than Argentina looking like this:

15 Agulla, 14 Amorisino, 13 Tiesi, 12 Contepomi, 11 Camacho, 10 Hernandez, 9 Lalanne, 8 Lobbe, 7 Leguizamon, 6 Fessia, 5 Albacete, 4 Carizza, 3 Scelzo, 2 Ledesma, 1 Roncero

16 Basualdo, 17 Ayerza, 18 Sambucetti, 19 Galindo, 20 Figuerola, 21 Bosch, 22 Carballo

If you do then we have vastly different views of rugby.

Stephen Jones, credit to him, is no Hernandez. The best thing that happened to Clermont was him leaving. Unwanted Australian, Brock James, has been significantly better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
EDIT: Oh yeah forgot to say, Stephen Jones' try was 100% legal, there was no signal and no tee, he's more than entitled to take a tap and go for the corner.[/b]
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As I said, I blame Argentina for this try. However, it is not a 100% case as you suggest. It did look like a penaty had been opted for. Whether it had been or not I am not so concerned. This was an Argentine error that should never happen. The other two tries, however, were down to poor refereeing not legal play from ther Welsh. 14 illegal points. Still enough to win, like I have said, but next time a better referee please. Could the ref speak at least basic Spanish too? Surely a simple request?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 22 2009, 04:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Roberts is first choice over Henson actually. I would go for Halfpenny over Byrne too. Adan Jones is first choice but not overly goo. Certainly no match for either Roncero or Ayerza. Phillips, do you rate him, honestly? Peel on his day is better. Shanklin, yes he was missed.[/b]
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Melhor, I agree with the vast majority of what you've said, but in regards to players missing it makes me think that you don't really know a lot about the Welsh game and our best players. Byrne happens to be one of the best full backs in the world, Phillips happens to be one of the best scrum halves in the world, Adam Jones happens to be one of the best tight heads in the world. All of these would have made a significant difference. I appreciate Argentina had a lot of missing stars as well, I just didn't think much of your downplaying of how good our stars are. (+ Henson fit would play 12, with Roberts moving to 13).
Also, your quibbles about the ref are a bit redundant. Argentina offered absolutely nothing in this game, and in truth we should have put 50 points on them. I was at the game and so didn't notice the wrong interpretations at scrum time, and I grant that would have given the Argies more of a chance/platform if the penalties had gone their way, but it just seems to me that the overall performance was so abject, complaining about a ref is irrelevant.
I'm not going to go back to 197-wharreva when Andy Hayden jumped out of the lineout and say the ref cheated us out of a win against NZ. It just happens and people need to get over it.

And if we don't beat Australia next week now after the sodding Scots did them over, I don't know what I'll do!! :p
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cyRil of Ospreylia @ Nov 22 2009, 09:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Melhor, I agree with the vast majority of what you've said, but in regards to players missing it makes me think that you don't really know a lot about the Welsh game and our best players. Byrne happens to be one of the best full backs in the world, Phillips happens to be one of the best scrum halves in the world, Adam Jones happens to be one of the best tight heads in the world. All of these would have made a significant difference. I appreciate Argentina had a lot of missing stars as well, I just didn't think much of your downplaying of how good our stars are. (+ Henson fit would play 12, with Roberts moving to 13).[/b]
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All good players, no question about that. However I am not convinced that their replacements, aside from James, are actually weaker players.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Also, your quibbles about the ref are a bit redundant. Argentina offered absolutely nothing in this game, and in truth we should have put 50 points on them. I was at the game and so didn't notice the wrong interpretations at scrum time, and I grant that would have given the Argies more of a chance/platform if the penalties had gone their way, but it just seems to me that the overall performance was so abject, complaining about a ref is irrelevant.[/b]
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Well, I was actually wrong. I said Argentina were robbed of 14 points as Wales scored two illegal tries. When after checking the laws and being in contact with 'Smartcooky' I can confirm that without any question whatsoever Argentina were actually robbed of 21 points. Yes, thats right all three Welsh tries were illegal and the referee missed every Welsh cheating moment.

I stated that it was a 50/50 call and that I would say Wales can have the benefit of the doubt on it, yet it was actually a 100% wrong call because firstly: Stephen Jones took to tap kick from in front of where the penalty was awarded and secondly there was a Welsh runner on the field who appeared to be carrying the kicking tee. The law is below:

<blockquote><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
(B) No delay. If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to
kick at goal. The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or
when the player makes a mark on the ground. The player must complete the kick within one
minute even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. If the one minute is exceeded,
the kick is disallowed, a scrum is ordered at the place of the mark and the opponents throw
in the ball. For any other type of kick, the kick must be taken without undue delay.[/b]
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At the second try Luke Charteris who charged down the kick and Shane Williams who scorfed the try were both clearly ahead of lat legs at the ruck, or in other words both were offside.

In terms of the final Welsh try. I said:

<blockquote><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The third was after Wales got the ball from a kick on by Lobbe who was tackled late. Again, it should have been a penalty to Argentina. Again, Shane Williams is a fantastic player but this was not a try. It was a penalty to Argentina. See the video at 2:04. No arguments can be made I'm afraid Wales. It was illegal. Did Rees use arms in the late tackle btw?[/b]
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What I forgot to include was that Rees should have been yellow carded. Smartcooky agrees.

So regardless of whether Argentina were poor or not is besdeis they point. They were cheated out of 21 points by a referee who should be questioned just like Stu Dickinson. The ref missed the yellow card, got the scrum calls wrong and messed up the rucks a lot too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I'm not going to go back to 197-wharreva when Andy Hayden jumped out of the lineout and say the ref cheated us out of a win against NZ. It just happens and people need to get over it.

And if we don't beat Australia next week now after the sodding Scots did them over, I don't know what I'll do!! :p[/b]
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Point taken. But the video evidence is all there and in todays age of tv referee's and replays it is simply not good enough. Credit to Argentina for not complaining about this since the game. They will watch the video, probably are right now in fact, and feel like they were treated poorly. Three illegal tries is simply poor refereeing.

Wales should win vs Australia. Best of luck. </blockquote></blockquote>
 
Wales was a better team. Stop looking for excuses Wales deserved to win. You can't go on about how Argentina are missing all their stars tough luck it's rugby there are loads of injuries. And there was only one amateur in the Argentine team, all the rest new players belong to the Pladar and they do get paid so they are professional. Looking forward to Argentina Scotland hopefully we can get a win.
 
Sorry Mehlor, you're making a complete *** of yourself. Some of the stuff your coming out with is complete and utter garbage. Yes there were some tight calls from the ref, but you can probably find something wrong with 50% of all tries scored in rugby, such is the complexity of the game. Charteris probably was offside by a few centimeters, this kinda thing is missed in every single game of f***ing rugby. Get over it.

At scrum time, Paul James' binding was iffy. But at the same time the Argentinian's losshead binding was non-existent = many correct calls from the ref.

As for your opionoins on the quality of Welsh and Argentinian players missed, how biased can you get. Stephen Jones has established himself as one of the very top 10's in world rugby. Carter is the only one that's certainly above him imo. He was superb on the Lions tour and has been the same for Wales for a few seasons now. Hernanzes is good, but no better than Jones! Adam Jones is also up there with the best in the world, as the Lions series again proves. He was sorely missed, but Paul James was heroic. Lee Burne again is one of the top 3 fullbacks in the world, along with Muliaina and Kearney. Phillips (although a twat) is another top quality player, although Peel is an excellent backup. I'm not going to talk about Henson, because he's a long term loss.

Finally, stop thinking that you know more about rugby than anyone else on here! I know just about every rule in the game of rugby. And whilst I don't currently play, that doesn't make my knowlage of the game any less than yours. You've really ****** me off in this thread, because of your biased, big headed posts. I was very close to neg repping you, but decided against it.
 
Why don't you just watch it on iPlayer from the BBC Sport website? It was a big improvement from the Samoa match, but still a long way to go. Still didn't really click in attack with both centres having below par displays. Forwards went ok, Martyn Williams was back to his best, really keeping the Argentines guessing around the rucks and linking well with the backs.

Should be able to step up one or two gears for Aus.
 
Wales won, maybe there were a few controversial decisions but blame the ref and linesmen for not spotting them
otherwise fair and square
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 22 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
As for your opionoins on the quality of Welsh and Argentinian players missed, how biased can you get.[/b]
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???? I wrote positive comments of Wales and stated again and again that they should win the game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Stephen Jones has established himself as one of the very top 10's in world rugby. Carter is the only one that's certainly above him imo.[/b]
Click to expand...

And you want to say I am writting with bias?

Hernandez is unversally considered better.
Contepomi is universally considered better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
He was superb on the Lions tour and has been the same for Wales for a few seasons now. Hernanzes is good, but no better than Jones![/b]
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I can't believe anybody would think this. How on earth is Jones better than Hernandez? Seriously, how? His running game is weaker, his kicking game is weaker, his defence is weaker. His passing is top class but so is Hernandez's. He out does Hernandez in no part of flyhalf play.

Again, as I have said and you can re-read my posts to verify, Stephen Jones is a good player. he did play well and was the best 10 on the field but he was against Argentina's 4th choice 10 and the try he scored was not valid. This is all I was saying. If the try was valid show me how. I have provided the actual law to state my case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Adam Jones is also up there with the best in the world, as the Lions series again proves. He was sorely missed, but Paul James was heroic.[/b]
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Adam Jones is a good player, as I have said. But he is not up there with the best in the world. He is up there with the best in the home nations but is not as good as the players from France, Argentina, Italy or New Zealand. Wales with their first choice forwards are not as good as los Pumas in my opinion. If you disagree thats no problem. You are welcome to do so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Lee Burne again is one of the top 3 fullbacks in the world, along with Muliaina and Kearney. Phillips (although a twat) is another top quality player, although Peel is an excellent backup. I'm not going to talk about Henson, because he's a long term loss.[/b]
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Not for me. Kearney, Ashley-Cooper, Medard and Armitage are better. I would have Byrne (not Burne) over Muliaina. Again, if you disagree no problem. Phillips is very good too but I like Peel more. Both are better than Argentina's players in this position.

Wales has plenty of outstanding players. I have always said so. Wales is a world class team because of this. The team is especially talented fom 6-15 with no weaklinks at all. From 1-5 the team is weaker. Hence, the issue of the ref getting it wrong in this area vs Argentina who excell here. Wales have talent in depth in most positions. Byrne missing does not change much as Halfpenny is very good. Tom James is an outstanding wing and can't make the team. Honestly, I think Wales are a great side and never thought they would lose to an Argentina team so depleted. My issue with the refereeing is not against Wales at all. In any event, I consider this case closed because I have shown why what I believe to be bad calls were bad calls. The reason I have posted several times about this is to respond to others. Wales won, Wales were the better team, like I said.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Finally, stop thinking that you know more about rugby than anyone else on here![/b]
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I never said I know more than others and you have entered the debate saying so. I merely stated my case and did so with video evidence and using the laws of the game. I'm not sure why this has you all worked up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I know just about every rule in the game of rugby.[/b]
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Good, I am sure you do. Most people on forums know a hell of a lot. I don't suggest your knowledge is poor at all. Your posting suggests to me that you love ruugby and are a major fan of Wales. Good for you, thats credible and its always great to chat with rugby fans. But being a knowledgable rugby supporter, you will be well aware that all of Wales's tries were not valid tries. 21 points that should not have been scored. I am not whinging. These things happen but as you will see in my posts people have been saying that they were valid tries in response to me. I have merely provided the neccessary evidence to show why they were not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
And whilst I don't currently play, that doesn't make my knowlage of the game any less than yours. You've really ****** me off in this thread, because of your biased, big headed posts. I was very close to neg repping you, but decided against it.[/b]
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This was a discussion about tries that were given that should not have been. You have entered with all this name calling and saying I think I know everything.

Congratulations on the win. Hopefully in the future you can tone down your posting.
 
Ha, That was fun.

I like to stay out of conrontations and then have my say when it's finished.

It's kinda like watching a match and then commenting on the comments.

TheRugbyForumForum you could call it.

Watched the videos with the three tries.

The first one was grand and I think (or at keast hope) that melhor has conceded that by now.
The second one was offside but you'll see about 20 offsides in a match that are 10 times more obvious and if it happenned in a Welsh match people would be screaming "THIS IS WHY JONES IS THE BESTEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD".
Last try, I think he was committed but that ones so marginal that I can't blame Melhor calling it for his team and all the Welsh guys calling it for theirs. One of those things that's pointless to argue about.

In the end all the tries were deserved and I don't think anyone credits Melhor for (pretty much) admitting that.

As for the question of Wales' missing players. Well Jones makes a huge difference in the scrum, it's silly tp argue otherwise. Paul james who's replacing him is doing his best but quite franklt their incomparable.
Hook (or halfpenny) is in no way an adequate replacement for Lee Byrne. Sillyness.
I'm not a Henson fan but w/o him they don't have the balance in the centre they need.

Shanklin is playing average and doesn't work with roberts in the centre anyway, don't think you're missing him. I think peel is a bettter player than Phillips if he'd actually be given a full 80 minutes to provve it.

And last but not least. Hernandez is a better outhalf than Jones but quite frankly, I think Jones is on better form and I don't know how that arguement even started.

It's all oppinion and everyones biased no matter what they say.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 22 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 22 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
As for your opionoins on the quality of Welsh and Argentinian players missed, how biased can you get.[/b]
Click to expand...

???? I wrote positive comments of Wales and stated again and again that they should win the game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Stephen Jones has established himself as one of the very top 10's in world rugby. Carter is the only one that's certainly above him imo.[/b]
Click to expand...

And you want to say I am writting with bias?

Hernandez is unversally considered better.
Contepomi is universally considered better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
He was superb on the Lions tour and has been the same for Wales for a few seasons now. Hernanzes is good, but no better than Jones![/b]
Click to expand...

I can't believe anybody would think this. How on earth is Jones better than Hernandez? Seriously, how? His running game is weaker, his kicking game is weaker, his defence is weaker. His passing is top class but so is Hernandez's. He out does Hernandez in no part of flyhalf play.

Again, as I have said and you can re-read my posts to verify, Stephen Jones is a good player. he did play well and was the best 10 on the field but he was against Argentina's 4th choice 10 and the try he scored was not valid. This is all I was saying. If the try was valid show me how. I have provided the actual law to state my case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Adam Jones is also up there with the best in the world, as the Lions series again proves. He was sorely missed, but Paul James was heroic.[/b]
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Adam Jones is a good player, as I have said. But he is not up there with the best in the world. He is up there with the best in the home nations but is not as good as the players from France, Argentina, Italy or New Zealand. Wales with their first choice forwards are not as good as los Pumas in my opinion. If you disagree thats no problem. You are welcome to do so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Lee Burne again is one of the top 3 fullbacks in the world, along with Muliaina and Kearney. Phillips (although a twat) is another top quality player, although Peel is an excellent backup. I'm not going to talk about Henson, because he's a long term loss.[/b]
Click to expand...

Not for me. Kearney, Ashley-Cooper, Medard and Armitage are better. I would have Byrne (not Burne) over Muliaina. Again, if you disagree no problem. Phillips is very good too but I like Peel more. Both are better than Argentina's players in this position.

Wales has plenty of outstanding players. I have always said so. Wales is a world class team because of this. The team is especially talented fom 6-15 with no weaklinks at all. From 1-5 the team is weaker. Hence, the issue of the ref getting it wrong in this area vs Argentina who excell here. Wales have talent in depth in most positions. Byrne missing does not change much as Halfpenny is very good. Tom James is an outstanding wing and can't make the team. Honestly, I think Wales are a great side and never thought they would lose to an Argentina team so depleted. My issue with the refereeing is not against Wales at all. In any event, I consider this case closed because I have shown why what I believe to be bad calls were bad calls. The reason I have posted several times about this is to respond to others. Wales won, Wales were the better team, like I said.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Finally, stop thinking that you know more about rugby than anyone else on here![/b]
Click to expand...

I never said I know more than others and you have entered the debate saying so. I merely stated my case and did so with video evidence and using the laws of the game. I'm not sure why this has you all worked up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I know just about every rule in the game of rugby.[/b]
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Good, I am sure you do. Most people on forums know a hell of a lot. I don't suggest your knowledge is poor at all. Your posting suggests to me that you love ruugby and are a major fan of Wales. Good for you, thats credible and its always great to chat with rugby fans. But being a knowledgable rugby supporter, you will be well aware that all of Wales's tries were not valid tries. 21 points that should not have been scored. I am not whinging. These things happen but as you will see in my posts people have been saying that they were valid tries in response to me. I have merely provided the neccessary evidence to show why they were not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
And whilst I don't currently play, that doesn't make my knowlage of the game any less than yours. You've really ****** me off in this thread, because of your biased, big headed posts. I was very close to neg repping you, but decided against it.[/b]
Click to expand...

This was a discussion about tries that were given that should not have been. You have entered with all this name calling and saying I think I know everything.

Congratulations on the win. Hopefully in the future you can tone down your posting.
[/b][/quote]

That was a very good post. I fully appologise for the name calling, it wasn't called for. Not really sure why I got so riled. Won''t happen again.

However I certainly do disagree with you about the first and third tries. Imo they were both perfectl legal. The second one, appears offside (only one of his feet was behind the backfoot), but that's the way it goes (as many Welsh posters have been told in the past).

As for the players. Hernandez and Contepomi are excellent players, but Hernandez isn't in his 07 form and Contepomi's injred and also wasn't in his best form before that for Leinster. Stephen Jones (whilst a limited player) is playing exceptionally well and was simply superb yesterday, especially in defense. I also think Wales' front 5 have improved hugely. If Jones were fit, then that's the Lions forst choice front row, no mean feat. I also think second row is our strongest position in the team, with 6-7 players vuying for places.

But again that's all opinion, as is yours.

Edit: I'll + rep you tomorrow if I remember, because I think that post deserved it.
 
@ LydiatesGirl
have people really said Lydiate wasn't good? He played really well I thought, he carried and tackled well, and we saw a lot of him, which shows his work rate is very good. He could well be on the bench next week.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sebas @ Nov 22 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Wales was a better team. Stop looking for excuses Wales deserved to win. You can't go on about how Argentina are missing all their stars tough luck it's rugby there are loads of injuries. And there was only one amateur in the Argentine team, all the rest new players belong to the Pladar and they do get paid so they are professional. Looking forward to Argentina Scotland hopefully we can get a win.[/b]
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Hola, senor!

I believe Wales did deserve to win. They wanted to go out there and show what they could do after a very nervous time against Samoa and they did that. Argentina competed well but they're not the complete package they were in 2007. However the signs are all there and the team are very positive and tightly knit so things will gradually improve like they did in the run up to 2007 :)
 

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