Wales V Argentina

[Ozzay]

James Hook
Leigh Halfpenny
Jamie Roberts
Jonathan Davies
Shane Williams
Stephen Jones
Gareth Cooper

Gethin Jenkins
Matthew Rees
Paul James
Alun Wyn Jones
Luke Charteris
Andy Powell
Martyn Williams
Ryan Jones (capt)

Replacements: Huw Bennett, Duncan Jones (both Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Blues), Dan Lydiate (Dragons), Dwayne Peel (Sale), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Tom James (Blues).

 

[dullonien]

Cooper, Powell!!!!!!!????? Why? I thought Cooper had a poor game against NZ, and I thought Peel had a decent game against Samoa despite getting a huge knock in the first 10mins. Coopers passing was a mess at times in the NZ game, with Stephen Jones and Jamie Roberts recieving numerous passes on their shoe laces.

Can't believe Gatland is stil persisting with Powell! He's been Wales worst player in both Autumn tests so far. He offers nothing to this Welsh team, and I don't understand what Gatland sees in him.

Damnit!!

 

[SmokeyMonkey]

****, Powell at 6.... Cooper..... Jon Davies and Jamie Roberts as our centres with a zero passing game, no point in having wingers on the attack. The forwards need to man up. :/

 

[Ozzay]

Andy Powell: Last year AI, he was the man! 6 nations he slowly started to annoy me when running on his own and being only able to do one thing, but so did Jamie Roberts. Then the Lions and he proved to the world how **** he is. Yet Roberts stepped up. But now these AI, Powell has been himself, absolutely worthless. runs on his own, gets insolated, turnover or penalty given away!

Cooper: I thought last week he was poor, didnt get the ball away quick enough and Peel last week was back to see 05 form?

Can't really comment on Jonathon Davies, ain't watched him play. i just hope the centres do more, because its been Lee Byrne coming off Roberts to make us a threat and now hes out, theres no1 2 fill the gap missed.

Gatland has probably knocked the confidence out of Biggar and Warburton now 2.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SmokeyMonkey @ Nov 17 2009, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

****, Powell at 6.... Cooper..... Jon Davies and Jamie Roberts as our centres with a zero passing game, no point in having wingers on the attack. The forwards need to man up. :/[/b]

Don't agree with your comments on Roberts and Davies. Roberts straightens the line, when the rest of the backline (especially Hook) just drift across the pitch giving no room for the wingers. He has a great offloading game if other players actually run some supporting angles. Davies has been the on form centre in Wales this season imo. He also has a good passing game, and is again one of the few Welsh players it seems, who knows how to utilise an overlap by fixing the defender and stopping the drift!

Shanklin's the one that doesn't posses a passing game!

This is the centre partnership I've been waiting for. Very excited to see how they go, could be good......

Edit: don't see why Biggar and Warberton will have lost their confidence. Biggar did alot of good things against Samoa. However he needs to realise that he can't constantly throw long passes at international level, they will be intercepted. He's a confident lad, who'll bounce back just fine. Warberton is another that won't let a couple of dropped balls affect him. He did so many good things against Samoa, including supporting play, nice breaks and some excellent steals. I'd have had him on the bench for this game with JT starting at 6. The more game time Warberton has, the quicker he'll become the great player he's destined to be.

 

[SmokeyMonkey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 17 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Don't agree with your comments on Roberts and Davies.

Shanklin's the one that doesn't posses a passing game![/b]

Yeah but Shanklin plays 13 so it hardly matters, I'd rather have Roberts at 12 with Hook coming off his shoulder at 13 like BOD did for the Lions, or even Hook at 12 and Roberts at 13 would be better than Jon Davies... If only Gatland would've picked Tovey in the squad... <_<

Powell is a ball carrier, not a rucker and should either play 8, bench or nowhere at all. He's wasted at 6 but he's not a terrible player, he just has 1 effect which has to be used properly within the team. Aside from playing Peel there's not much I'd change about the team, considering the injuries.

 

[dullonien]

I'm still not convinced by Hook at centre. He hasn't been setting the world on fire for the Ospreys in that position, and while I do think it's his best future position, he needs more game time there with the O's. Jon Davies is an all round good player. In some ways, he's similar to O'Driscoll. He enjoys taking defenses on, especially on the outside. He has a good burst of speed, and is very powerful when he does get tackled. He's not atall a basher like Roberts or Shanklin, although he can fullfill that role if needed.

It's tough to know exactly how well players will combine, but I think this partnership has alot of potential. It will certainly be better than the Roberts, Shanklin partership we've had to put up with so far. At the same time, Hook and Roberts could also work very well together. They're very different kinds of players, and that would really keep the defense guessing. Pitty Daniel Evans isn't in the squad you mean? He's has a much better season than Tovey so far, that's for sure. I still think Tovey's best position is outside half.

 

[Bluemoon]

I get the feeling Cooper may be shown up a bit this weekend at the rucks. He is far to slow, yet I prefer him to Martin Roberts.

So many people have said how good this Jonathan Davies is. Now is his chance to step up. I do think its a massive risk though, this partnership should have been tested against Samoa as I think Argentina will reduce the amount of decent ball we have, so chances are important. But then again who knows, sometimes it goes the opposite way.

Backrow is no surprise. Powell makes more of an impact from 8 and recently he's been making some real bad decisions. I think the pack doesn't have enough power to match the argentines up front and we will fall short by a couple of points.

 

[SmokeyMonkey]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 17 2009, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Pitty Daniel Evans isn't in the squad you mean? He's has a much better season than Tovey so far, that's for sure. I still think Tovey's best position is outside half.[/b]

Ah yeah, I forgot about Evans, one of them should've been called up. I don't disagree with you about 10 being Tovey's best position. However he won't get past Biggar there, especially seing as he even can't get past Arlidge at the Drags. It's annoying really how Wales have an amazing 1st team when they're all fit. I mean the team picks itself really. But we shift players around all the time to patch up the holes. Warburton and hopefully Lydiate will make part of a good future back-row, the front row is looking bleak apart from Ken Owens however... :huh:

 

[dullonien]

Still think we should win this match. Argentina were aweful against England. Yes we'll be mullered in the scrums, but that's the only area we'll be second best imo. Argentina's only game plan against England seemed to be to put up a kick and hope England knocked on. This isn't good enough to win games, and that showed on Sat, where an underperforming England side beat them.

I can't see Argentina changing their tactics, because they'll be hopeing to get some knock on's, so they can force as many scrums as possible. It could work, but we should be too good for such simple tactics.

Edit: @ smokey. How about that young tighthead at the Scarlets, Jamie Corsi. He was with the Dragon's, but was injured for over a year. Had a good debut on the weekend by all account. Remember he was in line for a Welsh start a couple of years ago, but got injured.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 18 2009, 05:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Still think we should win this match. Argentina were aweful against England. Yes we'll be mullered in the scrums, but that's the only area we'll be second best imo. Argentina's only game plan against England seemed to be to put up a kick and hope England knocked on. This isn't good enough to win games, and that showed on Sat, where an underperforming England side beat them.[/b]

So you missed all of RWC 07 and everything SA has done since then?

Arg's real weakness against England was a few untested players in important positions. Check out Melhor's posts.

 

[Melhor Time]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 17 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Still think we should win this match. Argentina were aweful against England. Yes we'll be mullered in the scrums, but that's the only area we'll be second best imo. Argentina's only game plan against England seemed to be to put up a kick and hope England knocked on. This isn't good enough to win games, and that showed on Sat, where an underperforming England side beat them.[/b]

Argentina played a game plan that suited them as they were without their top three flyhalves and top two 12´s. They also had three of their top five backrowers out injured and their top three wingers were all injured too. Yet, they almost won the game. Not, what I would call an awful performance at all. It was set up for them to be crushed, but they did very well. They had 4 amateur players in the XV, inc at 10 and 12 yet Wilkinson and Geraghty were unable to do much at all.

Santiago Fernandez was under strict instructions to put the ball high and it worked. How many times did England make mistakes in this department? And, it certainly is good enough to win games like the biggest games of them all. As Shtove has said France vs Argentina, September 07, 2007, ala Rugby World Cup openning match. This is all Hernandez did and Argentina won 17-12.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXlVYgzVeg

An underperforming England should have been far too strong for an Argentine team missing 6 first choice players. The fact that they were unable to do much speaks volumns for Argentina´s defence and the abilities of their players.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I can't see Argentina changing their tactics, because they'll be hopeing to get some knock on's, so they can force as many scrums as possible. It could work, but we should be too good for such simple tactics.[/b]

In an interview, the coach and two senior players have said they won´t be playing the same way. They will be using more backs but will still take it to the oposition with their front five. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2w-1UVl-pQ

 

[Ozzay]

Fair comment about Biggar, Hook did the same and hasn't really been the welsh 10 since.

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 17 2009, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 17 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still think we should win this match. Argentina were aweful against England. Yes we'll be mullered in the scrums, but that's the only area we'll be second best imo. Argentina's only game plan against England seemed to be to put up a kick and hope England knocked on. This isn't good enough to win games, and that showed on Sat, where an underperforming England side beat them.[/b]

Argentina played a game plan that suited them as they were without their top three flyhalves and top two 12´s. They also had three of their top five backrowers out injured and their top three wingers were all injured too. Yet, they almost won the game. Not, what I would call an awful performance at all. It was set up for them to be crushed, but they did very well. They had 4 amateur players in the XV, inc at 10 and 12 yet Wilkinson and Geraghty were unable to do much at all.

Santiago Fernandez was under strict instructions to put the ball high and it worked. How many times did England make mistakes in this department? And, it certainly is good enough to win games like the biggest games of them all. As Shtove has said France vs Argentina, September 07, 2007, ala Rugby World Cup openning match. This is all Hernandez did and Argentina won 17-12.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXlVYgzVeg

An underperforming England should have been far too strong for an Argentine team missing 6 first choice players. The fact that they were unable to do much speaks volumns for Argentina´s defence and the abilities of their players.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I can't see Argentina changing their tactics, because they'll be hopeing to get some knock on's, so they can force as many scrums as possible. It could work, but we should be too good for such simple tactics.[/b]

In an interview, the coach and two senior players have said they won´t be playing the same way. They will be using more backs but will still take it to the oposition with their front five. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2w-1UVl-pQ
[/b][/quote]
I don't know mate. England would have been missing at least the same amount of players. Their entire first choice front row was gone just to begin with.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 17 2009, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 17 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still think we should win this match. Argentina were aweful against England. Yes we'll be mullered in the scrums, but that's the only area we'll be second best imo. Argentina's only game plan against England seemed to be to put up a kick and hope England knocked on. This isn't good enough to win games, and that showed on Sat, where an underperforming England side beat them.[/b]

Argentina played a game plan that suited them as they were without their top three flyhalves and top two 12´s. They also had three of their top five backrowers out injured and their top three wingers were all injured too. Yet, they almost won the game. Not, what I would call an awful performance at all. It was set up for them to be crushed, but they did very well. They had 4 amateur players in the XV, inc at 10 and 12 yet Wilkinson and Geraghty were unable to do much at all.

Santiago Fernandez was under strict instructions to put the ball high and it worked. How many times did England make mistakes in this department? And, it certainly is good enough to win games like the biggest games of them all. As Shtove has said France vs Argentina, September 07, 2007, ala Rugby World Cup openning match. This is all Hernandez did and Argentina won 17-12.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXlVYgzVeg

An underperforming England should have been far too strong for an Argentine team missing 6 first choice players. The fact that they were unable to do much speaks volumns for Argentina´s defence and the abilities of their players.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I can't see Argentina changing their tactics, because they'll be hopeing to get some knock on's, so they can force as many scrums as possible. It could work, but we should be too good for such simple tactics.[/b]

In an interview, the coach and two senior players have said they won´t be playing the same way. They will be using more backs but will still take it to the oposition with their front five. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2w-1UVl-pQ
[/b][/quote]

Fair enough. Sorry for not giving Argentina a fair assesment. I understand that Argentina have a host of very important players missing. Yes Argentina kept the scores close, but that reflects more on England than it does on Argentina. England persited in kicking all their posetion away, even though they were loosing that particular battle. I can't see Wales doing the same thing. We've got a back three which are very capable of countering, and against Argentina I can see that being the tactics. We've gotta run them ragged, moving that big heavy pack around the field, hopefully tiring them out so we can compete up front.

Apart from once in the second half where Wilkinson easily broke through, I can't remember another time where Wilkinson or Geraghty attacked the defensive line. You can be sure that Jon Davies and Roberts will put the amateur players at 10 and 12 to the test defensively. To be honest, I can't see them containing those two either.

It will be close, but only because Argentina will dominate the scrums. If that weren't the case, I think Wales would win comfertoubly. I honestly think that apart from the front 5, Samoa are a better team than this Argentinian one. Just looking at the two backlines proves this. The likes of the Tuilagi brothers put in some big hit's to save tries. I can't see where that's gonna come from in this Argentinian backline. I can see Wales producing numerous clean breaks again this week, and with Shane Williams back to run supporting lines, we should get a couple more tries.

If this was a full strength Argentinian side with Hernandez etc.etc. all playing, I think Argentina would take this game. But as it is, I'd be hugely ****** off if Wales lost.

 

[Ozzay]

Anyone else see the press conference?

Gatland looked really really nervous?

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ozzay @ Nov 17 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

James Hook
Leigh Halfpenny
Jamie Roberts
Jonathan Davies
Shane Williams
Stephen Jones
Gareth Cooper

Gethin Jenkins
Matthew Rees
Paul James
Alun Wyn Jones
Luke Charteris
Andy Powell
Martyn Williams
Ryan Jones (capt)

Replacements: Huw Bennett, Duncan Jones (both Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Blues), Dan Lydiate (Dragons), Dwayne Peel (Sale), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Tom James (Blues).[/b]

Unsure about Cooper, he didn't have the best game against NZ and I thought the only reason he played that game anyway was because Sale wouldn't release Peel, who is far better than Cooper.

Powell at 6 doesn't really worry me as long as we can get players supporting him when he goes on his crazy runs. The Centres seem to be a lot more balenced than against the Samoans with a mix between physicality at 12 and creativity at 13.

 

[dullonien]

Just saw something interesting on 606 (amazing I know!). Take a look at this link, on the middle row, far left picture you'll see Ken Owens there training with the Welsh squad. It's good to see that Gats & co haven't missed him completely. Let him get used to Wales' training techniques, then he'll be ready to take part in the 6 nations.

 

[Melhor Time]

<span style="font-family:Arial">1- Rodrigo Roncero (Stade Francais Paris, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">2- Mario Ledesma (Clermont, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">3- Martín Scelzo (Clermont, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">4- Mariano Sambucetti (Bristol, England)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">5- Patricio Albacete (Toulouse, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">6- Tomás Leonardi (CASI, Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">7- Alejandro Abadie (Rovigo, Italy)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">8- Juan Fernández Lobbe (Toulon, France) (capitán)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">9- Agustín Figuerola (CASI, Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">10- Santiago Fernández (Hindu Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">11- Mauro Comuzzi (Pucura, Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">12- Martín Rodríguez (Rosario, Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">13- Gonzalo Tiesi (Harlequins, England)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">14- Lucas Borges (Albi, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">15- Horacio Agulla (Brive, France)</span>



Suplentes:

<span style="font-family:Arial">16- Alberto Vernet Basualdo (Toulouse, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">17- Marcos Ayerza (Leicester, England)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">18- Manuel Carizza (Biarritz, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">19- Alejandro Campos (Montauban, France)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">20- Alfredo Lalanne (London Irish, England)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">21- Benjamín Urdapilleta (CUBA, Argentina)</span>

<span style="font-family:Arial">22- Horacio San Martín (Cordoba, Argentina)
</span>
Thats the team named to play Wales. The backline is very vivid as it is amateur from 9-12 as are their replacements with all in all 6 out of the 10 backs in the match day 22 being amateur. This highlights the extent of Argentina's injury crisis. They will not complain an nor should they. Many of the players happen to be very good but, they are untested internationally are are not he best players that Argentina has. It is interesting to see Figuerola start. I think he is very, very good. But it means it is the third 9 post Pichot to start. Thats 3 scrumhalves in 9 tests!

There are also some surprises in the forwards. Sambucetti returns for the first time since 2005 to play for Argentina. Another is Campos staying on the bench with Abadie starting. I cannot understand why.

Wales should look to attack the left as Comuzzi could be exposed. I don't know if it is wise though. Agulla and Tiesi are both very, very good defenders. Wales would need to ensure their forwards are faster to get to the breakdown if they want to play this way. Otherwise, they could be in a similar position as they were vs Samoa.

Argentina will not be concerned with the Wales XV so much. The biggest problem will be at 10-12 with Stephen Jones and Roberts both playing very well.

Wales should win the game. Argentina are very depleted but this has not stopped them before.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Nov 17 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't know mate. England would have been missing at least the same amount of players. Their entire first choice front row was gone just to begin with.[/b]

Sure, if you count in terms of quantity, England were hit just as badly. Possibly even more than Argentina. But, if you look in terms of quality there is no comparison. The players injured for Argentina are significantly better than those injured for England.

Now then, England were without: Armitage, Flutey, Shaw, Rees, Easter, Sheridan, Vickery, Flood and Ellis.

- For starters Ellis would probably not be picked ahead of Hodgson or Care.
- Geraghty is the form 10 or 12 in England and would start with or without Flutey. Flood would not feature at all if fit.
- Armitage is badly missed. But Cueto at 15 should have happenend from the get go.
- Rees would be unlikely to make the team.
- Easter would probably start but the backrow vs Argentina were all better players.
- Shaw is back now and has been missed too. But Kennedy should be in the team ahead of Shaw.
- Sheridan and Vickery are clearly missing and it is hurting the team.

So, by my count there are three missing who would un questionably be in the England XV. They are Armitage, Sheridan and Vickery.

Argentina, in contrast are without: Leguizamon, Fessia, Figallo, Galindo, Hernandez, Bosch, Contepomi, Carballo, Camacho and Amorisino.

- Leguizamon would be 7 if fit and is notable better than the missing English players (Easter and Rees). He is irreplaceable.
- Fessia would be 6 if fit. He is a good player but Leonardi did play well vs England. Galindo has been prefered to both but has been overtaken in 2009. He would certainly be picked ahead of Abadie who played 7 vs England.
- Hernandez is the best or second best 10 in rugby. Argentina repalced him with an amateur player as the other two (Contepomi and Bosch) are also injured.
- Bosch was playing superb for Biarritz at fullback and was a sure thing to play 15 for Argentina, or play 10 / 12 in place of the injured stars. He is being very badly missed right now.
- Contepomi is one of the best players in the world like Hernandez and Leguizamon. He is much better than Flutey.
- Carballo did well for Argentina in 2008 but has been injured since early 2009. He would be picked ahead of both Arg wingers who played vs England.
- Camacho debuted in June vs England and did well. He was guaranteed to start at 11 but got injured in October playing Heineken Cup rugby for Harlequins.
- Amorisino is the man of the moment for Leicester. He is scoring a try every match. He has suspect defence but has a great step and was guaranteed to start vs England on the wing.
- Figallo is a young prop doing well for Montpellier in France. He is back up to Scelzo but is injured.

My conclusion is that England had a depleted front row and missed their star fullback but Argentina were left with a depleted backrow and third choice backs at 10, 12, 11 and 14. Argentina were without much better players than those missing for England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eJmQcBxZiY

 

[Olyy]

If Flutey were fit he'd be starting every match, instead of Geraghty
We're missing Shaw badly as well (though that could've been rectified by playing Lawes, but for some reason they only had him on for 10minutes before shipping him back to northampton)