Wales Tour 2013: Japan

[dullonien]

I reckon Beck could play 13. Although I only put him there due to lack of options though. Hook isn't an outside centre either. Besides it would be good for Beck's career if he could use this to play 13 as it will help him in breaking into the Wales team properly in the future.

I do agree regarding the lack of 13's, and it'd be nice to have another option there. But I'm not sure about Beck there. Imo he's an out and out 12 and his entire skillset suits the inside centre position. I've always felt that a 13 needs some pace, something that Beck and Henson lack (although Hook's top end speed isn't great, he does glide about a pitch). Looking at all the other options we have, or will have, Jon Davies, Roberts, Scott Williams, Owen Williams and Cory Allen all have some pace about them (they could all do a job on the wing for example).

Granted that the class of Henson and Beck in the centres would probably be enough against Japan, If the back three were used cleverly, then it could be an interesting test, but just as I feel the balance of a back-row is more important than the sum of its parts, I feel the same about the midfield axis (10, 12, 13).

But if there isn't anything on the line, then by that logic all the Autumn/June internationals are "meaningless".

Comparing the Autumn/June internationals with a competition, then yes they are more meaningless (note, not totally meaningless, that was my fault initially). This tour to Japan will be a development tour, the JWC is also a development competition, but with more on the line, and more pressure involved.

In regards to the Raeburn Shield, I actually think Wales should big up it's importance now they have it. They'll never win a RWC, so it will be the only claim to being the world's best they get.

It's awesome to be in possession of it (as well as the TRF shield), but its only a gimmick in reality. It doesn't mean we can claim to be the best at anything.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong but U20's are still a long way from their peak performance both mentally and physically. The full national teams are selected over the best of 15 age groups not just 1. I think the matches you see at full adult level and U20 level are a different type to be honest.

Remember Japan, Canada and Georgia etc really aren't so far behinds the likes of Italy, Samoa, Tonga etc. Japan only lost by 1 point last year to a Samoa team that included the likes of Fotuali'i, Cencus Johnston, Tekori, Paul Williams, Paulo, Mulipola, Lemi etc. And also led Italy at half time away from home in 2011 until the scrum took the game away from them. Some think there is a giant chasm between the top 10 and below, but really is goes down gradually until the likes of Namibia.

I know it's a big statement, and one I can't back-up, but it's the feeling I have. Look at the England team, most play regularly in the Premiership, which is a higher standard than most of the Japanese players. I think the JWC is a pretty high standard, with strong forward packs, powerful runners and arguably a higher skill level than some professional competitions.

 

[psychic duck]

I do agree regarding the lack of 13's, and it'd be nice to have another option there. But I'm not sure about Beck there. Imo he's an out and out 12 and his entire skillset suits the inside centre position. I've always felt that a 13 needs some pace, something that Beck and Henson lack (although Hook's top end speed isn't great, he does glide about a pitch). Looking at all the other options we have, or will have, Jon Davies, Roberts, Scott Williams, Owen Williams and Cory Allen all have some pace about them (they could all do a job on the wing for example).

I have never thought of Jonathan Davies to be quicker than Beck. Look at the size of him, he look like Cian Healy build tbh.

It's awesome to be in possession of it (as well as the TRF shield), but its only a gimmick in reality. It doesn't mean we can claim to be the best at anything.

England beat New Zealand ... Wales thumped England. It's the nearest we can claim.

I know it's a big statement, and one I can't back-up, but it's the feeling I have. Look at the England team, most play regularly in the Premiership, which is a higher standard than most of the Japanese players. I think the JWC is a pretty high standard, with strong forward packs, powerful runners and arguably a higher skill level than some professional competitions.

There you are wrong. This is the team that played Wales, only Nowell and Watson are regular starters in the Premiership (which is unsurprising as wingers normally breakthrough first), but certainly not most of that team has yet reached any more than Academy and LV Cup level and a few Premiership bench appearances rather than regulars. They are all a long way off their peak. Other than the very elite like New Zealand I would question the ability of the majority.

England U20: Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby); Anthony Watson (London Irish), Tom Stephenson (Northampton Saints), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs); Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Callum Braley (Bristol Rugby); Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Nathan Morris (London Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Gloucester Rugby), Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers), David Sisi (London Irish), Jack Clifford (Harlequins).

Recently a Russian side (ie worse than Japan) recently came to Ireland and pretty comfortably beat both the academy level sides of Connacht and Munster both of whom had a few U20 players in them. The vast majority of U20 teams are players who have yet to breakthrough and yet to play regularly at the top level, like the names above, some won't even make it at all at the Premiership ever either.

I disagree about the JWC all that high a standard as well. From what I've seen, apart from last year where a weakened side was played, New Zealand cakewalk it and also some of the point margins between the big teams and others grows rapidly from top to bottom. Even Wales got a extremely massive pounding from the New Zealand in 2011. What professional competition is it better than exactly either? The Dragons are crap and one of the worst teams in Europe, but I don't see them getting much problem against Wales U20. I would back seasoned adults above and entire team of kids, they would need to be boosted by a bit more experience imo.

As I said before. Japan came within 1 point of beating Samoa with Fotuali'i, Cencus Johnston, Tekori etc. And led Italy at half time away in 2011, and were only 4 points behind until Orquera hit a late penalty for Italy to win by 7. I couldn't see Wales, Ireland, Scotland or even England U20 coming that close to a team with Parisse, Zanni, Cittadini, Ghiraldini all in it. http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/137377.html

 

[Draggs]

Jonathan Evans over Aled Davies, Evans has been in great form all season.
Forgot about Peers, bring him as well.

 

[dullonien]

I have never thought of Jonathan Davies to be quicker than Beck. Look at the size of him, he look like Cian Healy build tbh.

Jon Davies is bloody quick. Don't look at his build and assume. He's certainly quicker than Hook, Henson, Beck and Roberts, and one of the reasons he scores so many try's. This try from a couple of years ago demonstrates it pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVfQlreOnd8&t=1m40s.

There you are wrong. This is the team that played Wales, only Nowell and Watson are regular starters in the Premiership (which is unsurprising as wingers normally breakthrough first), but certainly not most of that team has yet reached any more than Academy and LV Cup level and a few Premiership bench appearances rather than regulars. They are all a long way off their peak. Other than the very elite like New Zealand I would question the ability of the majority.

England U20: Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby); Anthony Watson (London Irish), Tom Stephenson (Northampton Saints), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs); Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Callum Braley (Bristol Rugby); Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Nathan Morris (London Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Gloucester Rugby), Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers), David Sisi (London Irish), Jack Clifford (Harlequins).

Recently a Russian side (ie worse than Japan) recently came to Ireland and pretty comfortably beat both the academy level sides of Connacht and Munster both of whom had a few U20 players in them. The vast majority of U20 teams are players who have yet to breakthrough and yet to play regularly at the top level, like the names above, some won't even make it at all at the Premiership ever either.

I disagree about the JWC all that high a standard as well. From what I've seen, apart from last year where a weakened side was played, New Zealand cakewalk it and also some of the point margins between the big teams and others grows rapidly from top to bottom. Even Wales got a extremely massive pounding from the New Zealand in 2011. What professional competition is it better than exactly either? The Dragons are crap and one of the worst teams in Europe, but I don't see them getting much problem against Wales U20. I would back seasoned adults above and entire team of kids, they would need to be boosted by a bit more experience imo.

As I said before. Japan came within 1 point of beating Samoa with Fotuali'i, Cencus Johnston, Tekori etc. And led Italy at half time away in 2011, and were only 4 points behind until Orquera hit a late penalty for Italy to win by 7. I couldn't see Wales, Ireland, Scotland or even England U20 coming that close to a team with Parisse, Zanni, Cittadini, Ghiraldini all in it. http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/137377.html

You make a lot of good points. I will fully admit that it's only a personal opinion about some of the U20 teams being better, and not something I expect many to agree with.

In regards to the 'better than some professional competitions' commend, I mean just the skillset, and just some of the teams. For example, this Welsh U20 side is much more skilfull than the Dragons, who seem to struggle to pass the ball on some weekends. The skill level the baby blacks show is higher than a lot of professional teams imo. This might be because they play a more natural game, under less pressure, but it's still evident imo.

 

[psychic duck]

Jonathan Evans over Aled Davies, Evans has been in great form all season.
Forgot about Peers, bring him as well.

Too many running scrum halves. I'm tired of players like Lloyd Williams and previously Gareth Cooper who may have good highlight reels of tries, but hamper the backline with poor passing. Also Mike Phillips' service is slow. About time a quicker scrum half gets a chance. Such a pity Peel's career got ruined.

You make a lot of good points. I will fully admit that it's only a personal opinion about some of the U20 teams being better, and not something I expect many to agree with.

In regards to the 'better than some professional competitions' commend, I mean just the skillset, and just some of the teams. For example, this Welsh U20 side is much more skilfull than the Dragons, who seem to struggle to pass the ball on some weekends. The skill level the baby blacks show is higher than a lot of professional teams imo. This might be because they play a more natural game, under less pressure, but it's still evident imo.

Dragons would beat Wales U20. A player like Tuilagi may have limited skills, but he is fully developed and could smash kid backlines. Dragons experience of players would tell. Even a player like Prydie you would still consider ahead of the U20 wingers.

 

[Draggs]

U20 has much less defined defence. Players can play a more 'attractive' game with more time on the ball.

If we go based upon form, Evans would be ahead of Williams for this season.

 

[dullonien]

Dragons would beat Wales U20. A player like Tuilagi may have limited skills, but he is fully developed and could smash kid backlines. Dragons experience of players would tell. Even a player like Prydie you would still consider ahead of the U20 wingers.

Didn't say anything about beating them. I was commenting on skillset, and you've kinda proved my point by highlighting someone like Tuilagi who has very few skills, and rely's solely on his size.

The Welsh team aren't all that small tbh. Cory Allen for one is a physical player who wouldn't be bullied in the centre.

 

[psychic duck]

Didn't say anything about beating them. I was commenting on skillset, and you've kinda proved my point by highlighting someone like Tuilagi who has very few skills, and rely's solely on his size.

The Welsh team aren't all that small tbh. Cory Allen for one is a physical player who wouldn't be bullied in the centre.

The same Cory Allen who has played how many minutes of Pro12 rugby? Again I would back the Dragons 13 (Hughes or whoever they have now) to have the edge on him currently. And seeing as we are talking about Tier 2 teams, I would certainly back DTH van der Merwe and Paul Emerick ahead, and in Japan's case they have a strong Samoan centre Male Sau, all three are far ahead in terms of experience and apart from Emerick who is getting on now, they are in their best years physically. Add to that in the pack I reckon the likes of Manoa and Clever, Cudmore and Kleeberger, Leitch and Tui would be too strong and experienced for Wales U20.

 

[dullonien]

The same Cory Allen who has played how many minutes of Pro12 rugby? Again I would back the Dragons 13 (Hughes or whoever they have now) to have the edge on him currently. And seeing as we are talking about Tier 2 teams, I would certainly back DTH van der Merwe and Paul Emerick ahead, and in Japan's case they have a strong Samoan centre Male Sau, all three are far ahead in terms of experience and apart from Emerick who is getting on now, they are in their best years physically. Add to that in the pack I reckon the likes of Manoa and Clever, Cudmore and Kleeberger, Leitch and Tui would be too strong and experienced for Wales U20.

The Blues are fu**ing idiots though. Cory Allen is a seriously good player, and I cannot fathom why the Blues are just ignoring him. Yes he was with the Sevens (where he excelled), but they released him to do so. I'd have Allen over all the Dragons centres (although the likes of Dixon are promising, but not as promising as Allen). Most of us here automatically thought Allen would be pushing for a starting spot with the Blues this season, slightly ahead of Owen Williams, but Davies has ignored form and kept selecting Gavin Evans.....

 

[psychic duck]

The Blues are fu**ing idiots though. Cory Allen is a seriously good player, and I cannot fathom why the Blues are just ignoring him. Yes he was with the Sevens (where he excelled), but they released him to do so. I'd have Allen over all the Dragons centres (although the likes of Dixon are promising, but not as promising as Allen). Most of us here automatically thought Allen would be pushing for a starting spot with the Blues this season, slightly ahead of Owen Williams, but Davies has ignored form and kept selecting Gavin Evans.....

Being good at Sevens doesn't necessarily mean good at XV's (see Wales RWC winning squad). Jury's out, too early to call him better than all the others when he has hardly played.

 

[Draggs]

The Blues are fu**ing idiots though. Cory Allen is a seriously good player, and I cannot fathom why the Blues are just ignoring him. Yes he was with the Sevens (where he excelled), but they released him to do so. I'd have Allen over all the Dragons centres (although the likes of Dixon are promising, but not as promising as Allen). Most of us here automatically thought Allen would be pushing for a starting spot with the Blues this season, slightly ahead of Owen Williams, but Davies has ignored form and kept selecting Gavin Evans.....

They are, but I feel that they were holding him back to let him develop. He is a huge lad but perhaps not fully physically up to it, yet.
We don't want to rush the players, give them a chance to play at their level and excel.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Corey is centrally contracted to Wales 7s hence why he hasn't featured for the Blues that much. I am pretty sure I've mentioned this before.

Allen is set to play more next year.

 

[dullonien]

Corey is centrally contracted to Wales 7s hence why he hasn't featured for the Blues that much. I am pretty sure I've mentioned this before.

Allen is set to play more next year.

Surely he was only contracted at the start of the season? The Blues didn't have to release him, and considering their options at centre with Laulala gone and Roberts involved with Wales and in his final year of uni, you'd have thought they would have looked ahead and thought he might be needed.

I'm sure playing 7's will help his development. It certainly showed that he's got the pace and skill to flourish, as well as the strength he's shown for the U20's etc. He's got all the physical attributes you look for in the centre, with an added bonus of being able link well with those around him.

I suppose it took Beck a little while to step up to the mark at regional rugby after excelling at the levels beneath, so it wouldn't be certain that Allen would flourish straight away. I still think the Blues are a little slow at giving some youngsters opportunities. None of the young second-rows they have there have been given opportunities, something I said would be unforgivable prior to the season starting...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Surely he was only contracted at the start of the season? The Blues didn't have to release him, and considering their options at centre with Laulala gone and Roberts involved with Wales and in his final year of uni, you'd have thought they would have looked ahead and thought he might be needed.

I'm sure playing 7's will help his development. It certainly showed that he's got the pace and skill to flourish, as well as the strength he's shown for the U20's etc. He's got all the physical attributes you look for in the centre, with an added bonus of being able link well with those around him.

I suppose it took Beck a little while to step up to the mark at regional rugby after excelling at the levels beneath, so it wouldn't be certain that Allen would flourish straight away. I still think the Blues are a little slow at giving some youngsters opportunities. None of the young second-rows they have there have been given opportunities, something I said would be unforgivable prior to the season starting...

7s season hasn't finished yet and they are tied to the Wales setup from the start of the season. The player doesn't have to accept but to be honest outside playing for the Wales XV side then playing for the 7s side is the next best thing.

I don't disagree that that Blues should have used him more. But knowing boys who have been on 7s contracts its a tough thing.

 

[dullonien]

Fair enough then. I'll look forward to seeing him in a Blues shirt next season. If they are prepared to give him a run of games early on, he could easily be their first choice, maybe with Owen Williams outside him at 13.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Wales Training Squad:
Forwards: Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Rhys Gill (Saracens), Sam Hobbs (Blues), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Emyr Phillips (Scarlets), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Scott Andrews (Blues), Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Bradley Davies (Blues), Lou Reed (Blues), Andrew Coombs (Dragons), James King (Ospreys), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Dan Baker (Ospreys), Rob McCusker (Scarlets), Andries Pretorius (Blues), Josh Navidi (Blues).
Backs: Lloyd Williams (Blues), Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets), Aled Davis (Scarlets), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Ashley Beck (Ospreys), Owen Williams (Blues), Jonathan Spratt (Ospreys), Dafydd Howells (Ospreys), Liam Williams (Scarlets), Harry Robinson (Blues), Tom Prydie (Dragons), Steven Shingler (London Irish).

 

[psychic duck]

Wales Training Squad:
Forwards: Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Rhys Gill (Saracens), Sam Hobbs (Blues), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Emyr Phillips (Scarlets), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Scott Andrews (Blues), Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Bradley Davies (Blues), Lou Reed (Blues), Andrew Coombs (Dragons), James King (Ospreys), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Dan Baker (Ospreys), Rob McCusker (Scarlets), Andries Pretorius (Blues), Josh Navidi (Blues).
Backs: Lloyd Williams (Blues), Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets), Aled Davis (Scarlets), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Ashley Beck (Ospreys), Owen Williams (Blues), Jonathan Spratt (Ospreys), Dafydd Howells (Ospreys), Liam Williams (Scarlets), Harry Robinson (Blues), Tom Prydie (Dragons), Steven Shingler (London Irish).

Names in bold either not good enough, haven't yet done anything, or should hop off back to the U20's and play there instead.

Is there any greater insult to poor Fussell that they have selected an 18 year old with 4 Principality Premiership appearances. And if he's so good then he why didn't the Ospreys play him even when they had an injury crisis on wing and had a series of jokes play there? What has he done?

Talking of youngsters fast tracked despite achieving nothing ... Prydie? Even Dan Evans has been better this season. Don't mind Harry Robinson given Eli is injured but I prefer him in the U20's.

Hobbs is crap, not sure why he is there also. It surely can't be thanks to getting destroyed week in week out for his region. Rhodri Jones as a tighthead even though he never plays there ahead of Samson Lee?

And Spratt? Seriously? He has little potential and Bishop is better and I would even rate young Dixon as a better option tbh.

Dan Baker is fourth choice 8 at the Ospreys. Why pick Principality Premiership players? Ieuan Jones and Morgan Allen both better and also better than McCusker as well.

This squad baffles, there are a load 1 or 2 cap wonders all over it.

 

[dullonien]

Agree with all of that Duck, there are some weird decisions here. I have no problem in them resting Ryan Jones, Paul James and James Hook if they think that's for the best. I've never been convinced with Hobbs, and I would have preferred to see Rhodri Jones go as a looshead (where he actually plays), and Samson Lee go as tighthead. I think Samson has shown that he's a capable scrummager already, even if he needs another year to be able to handle the best.

Dan Baker is an odd choice. I'd have taken Morgan Allen and Kieran Murphy ahead of him. McCusker was inevitable.

It's a pity that the U20's will loose out on Harry Robinson. And I agree Duck, where the f**k is Fussell? It's obvious that the management have something against him, because he's been one of the best back three players in Wales this season. Yes he has a few faults, but so do Liam Williams, Robinson and Prydie. I don't think I've seen Dafydd Howells play to comment.

Where's Henson? Surprised with that.

 

[Draggs]

...Spratt??
I heard a few months back that Howells was going, just didn't really believe it.
Knoyle over Evans... ugh.

 

[psychic duck]

...Spratt??
I heard a few months back that Howells was going, just didn't really believe it.
Knoyle over Evans... ugh.

Jonathan Spratt is one of the oddest ones. At 27 he's hardly an investment in a prospect for the future like he was in 2009 whilst he has hardly forced his way into the side thanks to his performances for the Ospreys. Either way I don't see the logic.

He's only a few months younger than Andrew Bishop who is a much better, consistent player and has been for a few years now, so if they were going for simply the best option then Bishop is better there. Whilst if they wanted a prospect then Dixon is probably better (or at least as good) as well, so confusing that one.

The other really baffling one is Rhodri Jones ahead of Samson Lee as a tighthead? Not sure what they are thinking, Jones never plays tighthead, and isn't even getting above Phil John at loosehead at the Scarlets so why select him as tighthead?

I actually think this squad could really backfire without the best players such as James and Ryan Jones in it. Japan have a great chance.