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Wales Team, Six Nations 2013

Kohn's not unfit, he's just a tank.
Great scrummaging lock, he's one of the main reasons Quins scrum is as good as it is (obviously Johnston helps, but when Kohn isn't there it's nowhere near as good).

He's 3 stone heavier than the majority of other international second rows of his height. I think at that weight he'd struggle with the pace of international rugby. Of course it would make him a mean scrummaging lock, but that's only one small aspect of a second rows job.
 
He's 3 stone heavier than the majority of other international second rows of his height. I think at that weight he'd struggle with the pace of international rugby. Of course it would make him a mean scrummaging lock, but that's only one small aspect of a second rows job.

In fairness, a lot of Quins fans reckon that could be the case, as obviously the idea of him playing for England is floated from time to time - but only could, he keeps up well with Quins in open play and obviously that's a good pace. It would be fascinating to see how he got on, that's for sure.
 
Kohn's not unfit, he's just a tank.
Great scrummaging lock, he's one of the main reasons Quins scrum is as good as it is (obviously Johnston helps, but when Kohn isn't there it's nowhere near as good).

I concur
 
FORWARDS: Scott Andrews (Blues), Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs), Adam Jones (Ospreys) Paul James (Bath), Gethin Jenkins (Toulon), Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Matthew Rees (Scarlets), Ryan Jones (Ospreys) Lou Reed (Blues), Ian Evans (Ospreys), James King (Ospreys), Andrew Coombs (Dragons), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Blues), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Scarlets), Toby Faletau (Dragons), Andries Pretorius (Blues)
BACKS: Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne), Lloyd Williams (Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), James Hook (Perpignan), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets) Alex Cuthbert (Blues), George North (Scarlets), Eli Walker (Ospreys), Leigh Halfpenny (Blues), Liam Williams (Scarlets), Lee Byrne (Clermont).
 
Coombs is a shock. Would be nice to see a good Gwent boy get a cap ;)
Must say Lewis Evans can feel hard done by, especially when Turnbull is in...

Poaching Turks going after Sam now...
 
So I guess Fussell's form will never get rewarded with a call up to the Wales squad regardless of how well he does for the Ospreys. He has never even been called up to a Wales extended squad, never mind get capped, whilst less deserving players have been.

By the way let's see how Fussell and Liam Williams stats compare this season ....

Heineken Cup 2012/2013
[TABLE="width: 600"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Player[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Matches
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tries[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Assists[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Metres
Run
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Clean
Breaks
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Defenders
Beaten
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Offloads[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tackle
success
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Penalties
conceded
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Richard Fussell[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]374[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]66.67%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Liam Williams[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]131[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]66.67%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

RaboDirect Pro12 2012/2013
[TABLE="width: 600"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Player[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Matches
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tries[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Assists[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Metres
Run
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Clean
Breaks
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Defenders
Beaten
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Offloads[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tackle
success
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Penalties
conceded
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Richard Fussell[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]920[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]88.89%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Liam Williams[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]492[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]91.67%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Total 2012/2013 (Heineken Cup+RaboDirect Pro12)
[TABLE="width: 600"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Player[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Matches
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tries[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Assists[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Metres
Run
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Clean
Breaks
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Defenders
Beaten
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Offloads[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Tackle
success
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Penalties
conceded
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Richard Fussell[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1294[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Liam Williams[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]623[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]79.17%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

diapoe17fea0d32f206591d5924841fe059a4.gif


So judging by these stats, Fussell is by far the better attacking player and makes far more breaks and metres. You could have probably been able to tell this just by watching, but the stats certainly confirm this and by quite a margin.

Yet despite this, Scrum V and Western Mail will tell you Liam Williams is the next JPR Williams (see video and link below), and Rhys Priestland claimed him the best under the high ball he'd ever seen.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbyn...kened-to-full-back-legend-jpr-91466-29852331/

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UA2vISuI1wM#t=2165" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
 
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It's because Fussell was, for lack of a better phrase, a ****ing disaster for much of his first two seasons at FB. Players can't change, we all know this.
I'd rather have Fuss with the occasional howler than Liam Williams risking a card every time he gets involved.
West is best.

Fussell is like Morgan Stoddart. I feel a mixture of anxiety and excitement when he is in action.

My take:
FORWARDS: Scott Andrews (Blues): Impressed me in his last few caps, necessity due to tighthead injuries
Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs): Good to see him return, not forgotten!
Adam Jones (Ospreys): Say no more
Paul James (Bath): Must be first choice, right?
Gethin Jenkins (Toulon): How much has he played lately? Drop a few pounds and we will see
Ryan Bevington (Ospreys): Ever-improving, could see a match or two
Richard Hibbard (Ospreys): First choice pending injury, surely
Ken Owens (Scarlets): First choice Scarlets hooker, form has been patchy
Matthew Rees (Scarlets): If we don't care about lineouts...
Ryan Jones (Ospreys): A big loss, will be missed
Lou Reed (Blues): Hardly inspiring
Ian Evans (Ospreys): Our great hope of a somewhat respectable lineout, please be fit. Anybody have a knee they aren't using?
James King (Ospreys): Great prospect, hope he takes his chance
Andrew Coombs (Dragons): 2013s Tom Prydie. Surprising considering the amount of times I say Bloody Andrew Coombs a match
Josh Turnbull (Scarlets): Oh god.
Josh Navidi (Blues): Good season so far, would rather him stay with the Blues and get more time
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets): Needed for a lineout and some carrying
Justin Tipuric (Ospreys): Is he McCaw or Holah?
Sam Warburton (Scarlets): Poaching arsecelts.
Toby Faletau (Dragons): Ever maturing, our only real 8
Andries Pretorius (Blues): Does he merit the callup?

BACKS: Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets): The 'best' Turk scrum half. At least it isn't Webb.
Mike Phillips (Bayonne): Love him or hate him, Mike is still our best SH
Lloyd Williams (Blues): Over, say, Jonathan Evans? Actually, I am glad, saves us from using Wayne...
Dan Biggar (Ospreys): A composed and cool standoff, will he get his chance?
James Hook (Perpignan): Will be lucky to come off the bench more than once
Jonathan Davies (Scarlets): Draw the fullback and pass
Jamie Roberts (Blues): Draw the fullback and pass
Scott Williams (Scarlets): Pass
Alex Cuthbert (Blues): Deemed a flat track bully, he is the one of the few Welsh backs crossing the line with some regularity
George North (Scarlets): Can we use him properly?
Eli Walker (Ospreys): Outstanding prospect, but he could do with more time for the Os
Leigh Halfpenny (Blues): Legendary
Liam Williams (Scarlets): Read the start of this post
Lee Byrne (Clermont): In good form, another few caps for Lee?
 
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It's because Fussell was, for lack of a better phrase, a ****ing disaster for much of his first two seasons at FB. Players can't change, we all know this.
I'd rather have Fuss with the occasional howler than Liam Williams risking a card every time he gets involved.
West is best.

Fussell is like Morgan Stoddart. I feel a mixture of anxiety and excitement when he is in action.

Fussell was put at full back with no experience there and the coaches just decided to play him through his error prone early days at full back and he had to learn full back on the job. He has done now, and was on good form end of last season (see Munster 45-10 match) and has continued it this season. Surely the squad should be selected on form?

Welsh media is obsessed about teenagers/20/21 year old breaking through and starting well and then fast tracking them into the national team and giving them "next JPR", "Welsh fly half factory", "next Shane" tag.

They have no time for the player if they haven't broken through by age 22. So a player who develops later in his mid 20's is just ignored.

Fussell is far better at making breaks and creating tries than Liam Williams. It's obvious, and Wales struggled in attack just scoring 3 tries in 4 games in November (1 of which was an intercept, and another a 13 man maul), so the player who has the ability to break the line of defence is what Wales need right now. Fussell hasn't even made that many howlers of late. How many times has Liam Williams created match winning tries vs European champions Leinster?

How an earth has Liam Williams got people to believe he is "the next JPR" by the way? Other than creating scraps with opposition and his effort, what area of his game stands out?

diapoe17fea0d32f206591d5924841fe059a4.gif


Also Gatland called up and gave caps to Tom James and Morgan Stoddart (both who could be liable to howlers). It didn't stop them being selected, why should it stop Fussell. He also once called up Chris Czekaj in 2010 as a full back to back up Byrne. Will Harries, Harry Robinson and Dan Evans both got caps for Wales as well.

It seems every winger in Wales has had a chance or call up at some point apart from Fussell. Even though Fussell has scored more tries at domestic level in his career than any other active Welsh winger or full back apart from Aled Brew.
 
Well, Daniel Evans played for Wales during the Lions tour, and he was not the most objectionable player called up then.

You know what I like about the Fussell to Walker try v Leinster? Except for when he gives it the beans, he has both hands on the ball (after his acceleration he does this as well). All too often do I see players just tuck the ball up and go.

My only worry is that Fussell doesn't have (yet) the all around game needed for international rugby. Now I am not saying Williams or others do.
 
Those Liam Williams vs. Richard Fussell stats are remarkable but I wonder how much of it is explained by the fact that Fussell plays for Ospreys and Williams for Scarlets. Fussell is still better, sad that he hasn't had an opportunity.
 
Well, Daniel Evans played for Wales during the Lions tour, and he was not the most objectionable player called up then.

Who was the worst call up then? Spratt must be up there in terms of a worst Wales XV, certainly from players of the Gatland era.

Wales squad: Backs: Dwayne Peel (Sale), Gareth Cooper (Gloucester), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Nicky Robinson (Blues), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), James Hook (Ospreys), Jonathan Spratt (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Mark Jones (Scarlets), Richard Mustoe (Blues), Tom James (Blues), Chris Czekaj (Blues), Gareth Owen (Ospreys), Jason Tovey (Dragons).


Forwards: Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Craig Mitchell (Ospreys), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Gareth Williams (Blues), John Yapp (Blues), Eifion Lewis-Roberts (Sale), Bradley Davies (Blues), Ian Gough (Ospreys), Deiniol Jones (Blues), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Dafydd Jones (Scarlets), Robin Sowden-Taylor (Blues), Ryan Jones (Ospreys, capt), Lewis Evans (Dragons), Rob McCusker (Scarlets), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Sam Warburton (Blues), Dan Lydiate (Dragons).

My only worry is that Fussell doesn't have (yet) the all around game needed for international rugby. Now I am not saying Williams or others do.

I agree. I wouldn't put forward Fussell as a starter ahead of Halfpenny. But as a squad member, or potential call up to lineup if injuries occur then he is better and more deserving of a place than Liam Williams and Lee Byrne on form.

Scott Andrews (Blues): Impressed me in his last few caps, necessity due to tighthead injuries

By impressed do you mean simply bearable compared to his usual self?

Paul James (Bath): Must be first choice, right?

Agreed.

Andries Pretorius (Blues): Does he merit the callup?

The best of a bad bunch of Welsh 8's behind Faletau. Better than McCusker.

Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets): The 'best' Turk scrum half. At least it isn't Webb

This.

Lloyd Williams (Blues): Over, say, Jonathan Evans? Actually, I am glad, saves us from using Wayne...

Jonathan Evans may be in with a shout for Japan tour actually.

Jonathan Davies (Scarlets): Draw the fullback and pass
Jamie Roberts (Blues): Draw the fullback and pass
Scott Williams (Scarlets): Pass

So true.

Lee Byrne (Clermont): In good form, another few caps for Lee?

Still better than Liam Williams, but I would say solid not spectacular. Good defensively with boot and tackling, but offensive game and hitting the line disappeared. Second best full back at Clermont behind Buttin. Thought he was injured anyway? (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ngthy-layoff-after-breaking-back-8423026.html)

Those Liam Williams vs. Richard Fussell stats are remarkable but I wonder how much of it is explained by the fact that Fussell plays for Ospreys and Williams for Scarlets. Fussell is still better, sad that he hasn't had an opportunity.

Full back isn't a position where you look good just because of the team you play in. A winger may look good playing in a side which provides lots of opportunities, a number 8 behind a pack going forward, scrum half behind a pack that gives him time, fly half with a scrum half that gives him time. But full back is more an individual position, numerous full back skills such as catching high balls, counter attack breaks, last line of defence are down to the individual and nothing to do with the players surrounding. There are a few elements which the team playing in makes a player look better such as combining in attacking backs moves (relies on quality of other backs), but it is a lot more individual than others.

Just Fussell is much better at making breaks than Williams. Look at the GIF posted above, none of that Fussell break is down to his teammates.
 
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Spratt, Mustoe, and Owen. Not having a pop at them, but what had they done to merit a call up? I suppose the problem is that we don't have depth like England and France, so struggle during the Lions. Look at Ireland during the same period, a few interesting caps.

During that tour we had one of the most non-functioning midfield I can recall: Bishop/Davies...
 
Full back isn't a position where you look good just because of the team you play in. A winger may look good playing in a side which provides lots of opportunities, a number 8 behind a pack going forward, scrum half behind a pack that gives him time, fly half with a scrum half that gives him time. But full back is more an individual position, numerous full back skills such as catching high balls, counter attack breaks, last line of defence are down to the individual and nothing to do with the players surrounding. There are a few elements which the team would help, but it is a lot more individual than others.
It's just that sometimes stats don't tell you the full picture. The meters run stat doesn't tell you much unless you know how many meters are made per run. Maybe Fussell is likelier to run the ball back than Liam Williams because Liam Williams spends more time kicking for territory? Perhaps the Scarlets tactic is to have players like North run it back, so Liam Williams doesn't have the chance to rack up the meters? The number of assists and tries scored - possibly because Ospreys spend more time in an attacking area of the field, or possibly because the team tactics of the Ospreys put Fussell on the finishing ends of moves, whereas this isn't the case for Scarlets + Liam Williams? Does Fussell make more clean breaks because the speed of ball recycling and service down the line is faster, putting him in more space? (The likes of Tipuric, Fotuali'i, Biggar and Beck help here.) Are Williams penalties being given away because he's going into the contact zone when it should be his forwards doing the work? etc. It's hard to answer these questions without more info. Meters per run, meters per (clearing) kick, tries scored per number of runs in the opposition 22, assists scored per number of passes in the opposition 22 etc. are far more helpful in these kind of comparisons.

Just Fussell is much better at making breaks than Williams. Look at the GIF posted above, none of that Fussell break is down to his teammates.
True, I do think he is better, but it would make a fairer comparison if Williams also played for the Ospreys, and we could see who would come out on top there.
 
I agree generally with Fussell > Liam Williams, but to say that a fullback's play isn't dependant on his pack (and 10) is simply not true. The Scarlets have spent all but the first few games of the season camped inside their own half struggling to ease the pressure. This obviously means that Liam Williams' main job most of the time he fields a kick etc. is to relieve the pressure. That's due to a combination of poor pack and a poor kicking 10. Now the Ospreys are the complete opposite. One of the best packs in Europe + probably the best controlling halfback pairing going atm. This means Fussell can have more of a go because they haven't been under pressure for 90% of the game.

Edit We've also got to account for the fact that the Scarlets have no poaching openside in their team, whereas the O's have one of the best in Europe in Tipuric. Turnovers = a chance to run at a disorganised defence. I certainly remember a few of Fussell's runs being from turnovers. This is also the case in regards the relative defence of the two teams. The Ospreys defensive prowess forces turnovers, while the Scarlets passive defence does not. The more I think about it, a fullback is very dependant on the team around him, just as with every other position.

Still, at the present time I would have had Fussell in the squad (and possibly on the bench), and left Williams to develop his game at the Scarlets. However I do think that Liam Williams will develop into a good fullback.

Regarding the rest of the squad, it's mostly sensible, but I cannot work out why Coombs is there ahead of the ever impressive Lloyd Peers. I'm sorry for mentioning his name earlier in the thread, Howley obviously reads these boards and takes note. Unfortunately I was just wondering what Draggs thought of him, but he answered that above.
 
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People tend to have short memories or just can't remember.

When Spratt was capped for Wales he was infact in some fine form for the Ospreys. He therefore earned his caps. If you care to disagree with me then fine, but I remember it pretty well to be honest.

Duck I can name you a dozen players worse off than Spratt ... Jason Jones-Hughes instantly comes to mind.

Fussell for me is not good enough for Wales. I don't care about the stats or the .gif files banded about. He simply lacks the quality. He lacks some of the basic skills required such as passing a ball for instance, the .gif posted will show him passing but there have been times where he hasn't passed and blown opportunites for the Ospreys. But then where are those .gifs? Liam Williams does have something about him but I think he needs to go back to regional rugby and discover some form.

Pretorius is a good call up. Guy leads from the front and if we need to develop another 8 then Pretorius is that guy.

People complain about the squad, at least it's somewhat better than that selected in November.
 
Yeh, Spratt was a good youngster back then, as was Gareth Owen and Daniel Evans. They were all given a chance on a North American tour when the aim was to develop some young players. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest. Mustoe was always underrated imo, unlucky not to have more opportunities at a region, and unlucky to have to retire.

Jason Jones-Hughes, our apparent saviour. What a farce that was.
 
I think Spratt played half a dozen games for the Ospreys in the six months preceeding the tour, and started maybe 2/3rds of them.
Jones-Hughes wasn't bad, just injured and remembered in a different way. Same goes for Cardey.

Every player blows tries. Look at our midfield selections, it is pretty much a prerequisite skill! Fussell creates much more for his backs than Williams does.

Pretorius would have definitely been there 18 months ago, but his recent injuries have set him back. He is finding his form, but I just don't see him as an 8. I preferred Paterson last season, personally.
 
I think Spratt played half a dozen games for the Ospreys in the six months preceeding the tour, and started maybe 2/3rds of them.
Jones-Hughes wasn't bad, just injured and remembered in a different way. Same goes for Cardey.

Every player blows tries. Look at our midfield selections, it is pretty much a prerequisite skill! Fussell creates much more for his backs than Williams does.

Pretorius would have definitely been there 18 months ago, but his recent injuries have set him back. He is finding his form, but I just don't see him as an 8. I preferred Paterson last season, personally.

Paterson wasn't an 8. Secondrow or a blindside flanker to which sadly injuries are getting the best of him currently.

JJH was terrible. I remember his caps ... shocking was not the word.

Spratt got on the tour because he did well in games before selection, he was picked on merit to which people have said on this very forum they wished to see. Players picked on form. After his caps he has not really progressed and has gone quiet. But at the time he earned his place. He was earmarked as Dull said. Sadly he just hasn't kicked on.
 
I wouldn't really class Pretorius as an eight either. He has done decently, better than McCusker, for comparison. We still need to develop a proper eight, somehow. Ieuan Jones is looking decent...
 
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