USA panics, the EU simply fails and Japan humbled: welcome to meltdown-o-rama!

[Bullitt]

I give up.

 

[Charles]

Well maybe then you'll have time to research and check some facts and you would then undrstand that the deep kak we're in has nothing, NOTHING to do with socialism but more with extreme greed, self-convincement (? ), ultra capitalist dogmas and utter disrespect for the people and the planet.

Some facts

The Subprime crisis began because greedy loan makers tried to sell houses to illiterate people earning 1500$ a month.
All the companies closing their factories here and re opening them in SW Asia do it for the benefit of their shareholders and executives, who get indecent bonuses while people loose their job here and workers in SW Asia get paid peanuts.

When you f*** up something in a business, you get fired. When a bank f***s up millions of $, they fire some employees to please the shareholders,the bank is then bailed out and the CEO gets a huge golden parachute.

Browse through the news of the recent months/years, and you'll find a ton of that.

 

[Bullitt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Labour_Party

Political Ideology;
Democratic Socialism,
Social Democracy,
Third way,
Trade Unionism

Or;

Home - The Labour Party
Britain's democratic socialist party led by Gordon Brown. The values Labour stands for today, social justice, a strong community and strong values, ...
www.labour.org.uk/

Re-read my original points.

 

[Charles]

I'm sorry to delude you but the UK is not the centre of the world anymore, and whoever it is in Dwoning street has NO power at all on any US bank or hedge fund, by which the crisis we re in today came.

You don't like the labour, fine. But can you remind me who destroyed the UK productive economy. The mines, the factoriesetc. Who destroyed you public service ? Yes, the conservative party, M Thatcher.
Do you really think privatisation helped the UK railway system ? (probably the most expensive and dangerous of developped Europe)

Who has been fighting for years to ban children's work, getting a health insurance, all the social progress that YOU benefit as well ? Certainly not the Tories.

Or are you blaming the Labour party because they are using a right wing policy ?

So it's all well to put today's crisis on the back of Gordon Brown but if you can see through the smoke and mirrors of your own beliefs you'll realise the reality is a bit different.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 13 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm sorry to delude you but the UK is not the centre of the world anymore, and whoever it is in Dwoning street has NO power at all on any US bank or hedge fund, by which the crisis we re in today came.

You don't like the labour, fine. But can you remind me who destroyed the UK productive economy. The mines, the factoriesetc. Who destroyed you public service ? Yes, the conservative party, M Thatcher.
Do you really think privatisation helped the UK railway system ? (probably the most expensive and dangerous of developped Europe)

Who has been fighting for years to ban children's work, getting a health insurance, all the social progress that YOU benefit as well ? Certainly not the Tories.

Or are you blaming the Labour party because they are using a right wing policy ?

So it's all well to put today's crisis on the back of Gordon Brown but if you can see through the smoke and mirrors of your own beliefs you'll realise the reality is a bit different.[/b]

He's blaming the Labour Party because they are using a right wing policy or set of policies. Essentially he doesn't like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown the same way that many French Socialists would not have liked Ségolène Royal as President of France for much the same reasons (diluting the core values of Socialism, introducing more right wing and capitalistic policies, etc).

Theres a bit of misunderstanding here, Mite was just talking about the UK situation specifically. Every country seems to have a completely different situation and set of problems.

The sad thing is that today you have a generation people coming of age today who are frankly cynical, selfish and brainwashed.
Cynical in that they don't believe that the UK or even England/Scotland/Wales on their own can do anything, make anything, build anything, invent anything or win anything decent ever again. Hence the stupid and incredibly vague statement "I think we should give up pretending that we're a major power!" What does that even mean? Should we just disband as four nations and just invite the UN to run things for us? People say that but when I ask them what they mean they don't actually know what they're saying, yet another pretentious liberal peice of brainwashing.

Selfish in that they do not believe in contributing to the greater good and would rather amass a bigger fortune for themselves and brainwashed in that they have been brought up believing that the UK was never that good at making things, inventing things and creating things and on that basis Thatcher did us a favour by getting rid of all that nasty industry and engineering prowess and that we should be thankfull that we have an extremely flawed financial services industry proping up the UK and feeding a generation of ignorant, pretentious and frankly defeatist gimps who would rather change for changes sake, hate with a irrational hatred (i.e. "I HATE THE QUEEN BECAUSE SHE EXISTS I HOPE SHE BURNS IN HELL!!!" instead of "I appreciate that the existing system has been around for a thousand years but I believe we should have a positive transition to a Presidential Democracy" for example).

TL;DR summary: F**K you sodding townies, you're killing Britain/England/Scotland/Wales and I hope you all get screwed.

 

[Charles]

How can a right wing person (or am I totally misunderstanding Teh Mite) blame a socialist for using right wing policy ?

That's beyond me...

 

[alexrugby]

Are we in a financial S***it?

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 13 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

How can a right wing person (or am I totally misunderstanding Teh Mite) blame a socialist for using right wing policy ?

That's beyond me...[/b]

Its kind of like the Tory saying "HOLY CRAP STOP COPYING MEEEE!" :wah:

 

[shtove]

Right wing, left wing. Socialist, fascist. Doesn't matter.

Governments are getting bigger and bigger. And big capital likes that, because it can pay the governors and get them to skew the system in their favour.

America is the only country that takes democracy seriously, but what their government pushed through congress last month was "socialism for the rich", designed by the former boss of one of the most outrageous investment banks (which has now collapsed itself in to another form so it can go to government for funding).

I can understand the crowing about the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon model: it was rife with corruption, and now it's gone. But what's about to replace it will not make you very happy on pay day. Gordon Brown is the architect, and the euro leaders look like they're going to fall in line.

I think this works well for Europe, and I'm in favour of the euro because it cuts out infighting that we can't afford when Asia is on the rise.

But the UK (and Ireland, Spain) are going to have to take a painful hit, with house prices declining, or those states will default and go bankrupt, along with the banks who created the mess. That's what should be worrying the patriots and nationalists - bankruptcy is the quickest way to fall under the full control of Brussels.

It's a mess.

 

[Bullitt]

1.3 million out of work now. Add that to the 2 million that were already on the dole (which, never counted as unemployed).

So that's 5% of the country currently not working. It begins...

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Oct 15 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

1.3 million out of work now. Add that to the 2 million that were already on the dole (which, never counted as unemployed).

So that's 5% of the country currently not working. It begins...[/b]

I'm betting the percentage is quite a bit higher than that. And your taxes are paying for either their Buy to Let landlords or their mortgage interest (on interest only mortgages!).

Here's another tax hit coming - local authorities buying out former council properties, paying full mortgage redemption for defaulting scroungers who got cheap loans in the first place. Without getting complicated: scrounger gets mortgage and buys place he's been renting from council, withdraws all the equity - repeatedly getting deeper in to debt - during the housing bubble, then defaults and gets bailed out on his accumulated mortgage - offered by council, gladly accepted by lender - while being "placed" in the very same flat by the council at an "affordable" rent. I am seriously not a Daily Mailer, but that is just fraud! The scrounger gets to milk the system, but the real collusion is between the state and the bankers, the first bailing out the second. Taxpayer fcuked.

The US unemployment figures are massaged as well - currently just above 5%: if people are no longer looking for work they don't count.

Don't look down! There's a long way to fall.

 

[Bullitt]

My New Zealand plan is getting better by the second...

 

[Fa'atau82]

I'm going to live in a cave in Samoa.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Oct 16 2008, 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm going to live in a cave in Samoa.[/b]

Any space? So long as it's not American Samoa. But I believe we is all fewked anyway.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

SAVE_US.NEW-ZEALAND

 

[Enguelaz]

I am glad to read this discussion, at least there are people who still care!

About the economic situation, it's once again history repeating itself, same economic mechanism than 1913 and 1929. and the result of those two "meltdowns" were concentration (less competition). Problem is our national money markets are tied together now, so the domino effect is bigger.

Read the news yesterday to see that the US gvt is injecting US$250 Billion into the Stock Market in order to help the banks. $250 billion created out of thin air by the Federal Reserve to "help" those other banks... In market terms it is called an "Aggressive Takeover" which means that the Fed becomes the main shareholder of the 10 or so biggest banks in the US... eliminating competition in the process... The money will end up coming from only one place... and when it's happening you can kiss your "freedom" and your "possessions goodbye...

They're doing the same plan in Europe, Berlusconi was meeting with Bush yesterday, Next week it's Sarkozy's turn...
Wake up people, it's not just another economic meltdown... that's modern enslavement!

Make sure you all d/l a copy of the movie Zeitgeist I and II, It's all explained in there. You can get them here: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dloads.htm

Spread the word!

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 13 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I can understand the crowing about the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon model: it was rife with corruption, and now it's gone. But what's about to replace it will not make you very happy on pay day. Gordon Brown is the architect, and the euro leaders look like they're going to fall in line.

I think this works well for Europe, and I'm in favour of the euro because it cuts out infighting that we can't afford when Asia is on the rise.

But the UK (and Ireland, Spain) are going to have to take a painful hit, with house prices declining, or those states will default and go bankrupt, along with the banks who created the mess. That's what should be worrying the patriots and nationalists - bankruptcy is the quickest way to fall under the full control of Brussels.

It's a mess.[/b]

The European crowing was short lived, especially when the more risk-based Anglo-Saxon economies started to drag down the more socially minded European economies with it. Also, don't forget that the definition of "Anglo-Saxon economy" is very loose. Go back thirty years and the definition would have been very much different. China in my opinion has an economy best resembling a classic Anglo-Saxon economy: strong foreign currency reserves, insulation from outside competition with tarrifs and state funding and a strong mix between manufacturing and services. They're starting to feel the pinch but its one of those "creeping death" scenarios.

This crisis has revealed one major flaw of the Euro and on the contary, the crisis has revealed several facts. Firstly, without the power to control individual states power to outlay money through their central banks or finance ministries in forms of state loans, the European Central Bank is frankly useless in a situation as of this. It has been reduced to mainly symbolic rate cuts along with the Fed, the BoE and the BoJ. Where has our fabled head of the ECB been? Nobody knows, probably hiding a mile underground in a special EU bunker with the Mr Baroso...

Secondly, its shown that when things get tough, its every man for themselves. We've seen infighting in the past few weeks like nothing in the last few years. The UK has been blazing at Ireland, France at Germany, Germany at the Benelux nations over savings gaurantees, who should bail out which banks and essentially on what to do. European Unity in a crisis? Do me a favour, all this crisis has done is reveal the obvious ruptures caused by several decades of petty disagreements made worse by general feeble inaction and general disagrement between European nations over Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and most recently any unified action over even a response to Russia.

In a crisis like this, the role of the European Union and the European Commission is to foster unified and consistent response to the challenge at hand. At this it has emphatically failed. First it (no, sorry, France and Germany) conveined meetings between the biggest Eurozone economies, then it attempted a hurried set of meetings between first finance ministers and then heads of state which settled nothing, then the next Eurozone meeting had the sense of mind to invite *all* the Eurozone economies and the UK as well. Unified response? Yeah right.

This doesn't work well for Europe, its moved governments outside of the Eurozone away from the Euro because they were more or less ignored and shunned in the early days of the crisis and it has exposed the rifts between the various national cliques within the European Union. This only gives more ammunition to the likes of Poland, the Baltic States and the Czechs to rebel against older European States. Its only going to give the Euro Sceptics more evidence that Brussels fiddled whilst the world burned (or bickered, if you live on the continent) and its only going to give China and Russia yet more evidence that the EU is nothing more than a laughing stock.

 

[shtove]

Yeah, they're all good points.

I agree completely on the feebleness of european response to yugoslavia break up, etc and ultimately to Russia.

Your other points I think give ammo to the euro federalists! If it's that bad, then we NEED one system - trade, financial and fiscal. It's not a view I support. Perfectly fine for the governments to take independent stances and prop up their banks in various ways, so long as the end product is the same: transparency on balance sheets and greedy shareholders getting wiped out.

Sadly, what Broon is proposing doesn't achieve these goals - he wants mark-to-market accounting to be suspended ie. let the fantasy continue and the mountain of debt grow higher. It's the only thing he knows. We haven't seen the detail yet from europe, but I suspect his plan is going to come crashing down and europe will go for something like the Swedes did in the early '90s - rescue the system by nationalisation while flushing out the abusers and producing honest accounts.

The cross-border stuff makes it complicated, but euro governments have been operating swaps to prop up each others banking industries for centuries.

In fact, Switzerland has just done a swap with the US to bail out UBS. Didn't I tell ya? Another failing state as candidate for the EU - along with Iceland, whose prime minister admitted on Tuesday that membership is now practically "inevitable" (never mind all that crap about talks with Russia). Woohoo! Britain can finally cast its net over those fishing grounds.

p.s. Enguelez, I've never watched that zeitgeist film. It's linked in many blogs, but there's plenty of up to date analysis on american sites from people - economists, traders - who are appalled at the system and its abuses. I'm amazed at how much sense is spoken on the internet. The only reason I read newspaper commentary now is to find out what currently passes for thought amongst idiots.

 

[Enguelaz]

Yeah, i also do that a lot on French and American news websites, it's quite amazing some the cr@p you can read, how people can't see they're lied to and think the problem can be resolved by puting faith in the politics... but there are also more and more people who have open their eyes... but still not enough of them to create the critical mass we need to push the change...

I also read the articles and once you know how to connect the dots, what you read in the newspaper is quite scary cause you can see all the systems unfold, you can nearly predict what's coming after it. It's all in our history books, read more about the 1929's meltown, the causes and effects, and then, look in your daily newspaper and you'll pick up the same mechanism if you can read between the lines.

Try to watch those movies, there are a few "out there" things in there, but if you put just 5 min of thoughts in it you'll realise the guy's got a point, especially about our banking system.