B
Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QLD @ Oct 11 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Why not Australia?
[/b][/quote]
Further away.
Why not Australia?
[/b][/quote]
Further away.
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USA panics, the EU simply fails and Japan humbled: welcome to meltdown-o-rama!
N
nam97
Guest
This whole thread makes no sense to me. Stocks and shares? Wat r deez thingz?
L
Laetca
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wairarapa_cullen @ Oct 11 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
It might be a good idea to open any random newspaper, or watch the news. It will pop up somewhere in there.
The cartoonists are having a field trip. Not sure if anyone else profits from this.
This whole thread makes no sense to me. Stocks and shares? Wat r deez thingz?[/b]
It might be a good idea to open any random newspaper, or watch the news. It will pop up somewhere in there.
The cartoonists are having a field trip. Not sure if anyone else profits from this.
S
St Helens RLFC
Guest
I think the crash heading our way will make 1987 look inconsequential personally.
C
Charles
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Oct 11 2008, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
This whole failure is precisely due to right-wing economic dogmas, and pure scorn of anything else than money. nothing really socialist here...
You know this crisis comes from the USA, do you ? :huh:Despite the fact this country is run by a bunch of left wing socialists?[/b]
This whole failure is precisely due to right-wing economic dogmas, and pure scorn of anything else than money. nothing really socialist here...
B
Bullitt
Guest
The reason that the UK has no money of its own, and therefore completely buggered instead of being in a position to "weather the storm", is due to the socialist overspending on pointless things while the going was good and now has no bail out plans.
The UK is f***ed, and if the UK goes down, the rest of Europe will follow like dominos.
The UK is f***ed, and if the UK goes down, the rest of Europe will follow like dominos.
C
Charles
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Oct 11 2008, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The reason the UK and Europe has no money on it's own is due to the search of better profits and shares for the stakeholders , that is delocalising all the industry (all of that being started by M Thatcher, remember the mines and all) and production activities to China and such countries (cheap wages, hard working employees, no work legislation etc), and reliying on financial mind-tricks to make the dosh (read economics. How come the estate price rises up to twice in ten years and the salaries stays the same ?
If you bother, ask yourself why the money going to the stakeholders doing nothing more than it is going to the people actually working in the factories and all ?
Why should the country have to bail out for stupid bankers ? Guys loose millions by playing money that isn't really theirs, putting thousands of people on the street, and then we the taxpayers have to bail them out ? :angry:
The reason that the UK has no money of its own, and therefore completely buggered instead of being in a position to "weather the storm", is due to the socialist overspending on pointless things while the going was good and now has no bail out plans.
The UK is f***ed, and if the UK goes down, the rest of Europe will follow like dominos.[/b]
The reason the UK and Europe has no money on it's own is due to the search of better profits and shares for the stakeholders , that is delocalising all the industry (all of that being started by M Thatcher, remember the mines and all) and production activities to China and such countries (cheap wages, hard working employees, no work legislation etc), and reliying on financial mind-tricks to make the dosh (read economics. How come the estate price rises up to twice in ten years and the salaries stays the same ?
If you bother, ask yourself why the money going to the stakeholders doing nothing more than it is going to the people actually working in the factories and all ?
Why should the country have to bail out for stupid bankers ? Guys loose millions by playing money that isn't really theirs, putting thousands of people on the street, and then we the taxpayers have to bail them out ? :angry:
B
Bullitt
Guest
Ah, but over the last 10 years or so the rise in Industry taxes and employment laws have ruined small businesses over the whole country. Look at construction, the field I work in, and the number of medium sized companies who have had to call it a day is ridiculous. I agree that city fatcats have buggered things about, but they have been and always will be (only started originally as a bunch of drunk people however long it was ago trading coffee).
Even bigger companies such as Travis Perkins (a top 80 company in the country) are struggling. Partally because of the city, but also because of the knock on that nobody can currently afford to buy their building materials in the first place.
All because the treasury take off those who have without any thought to when the money will run out. Being as my father had to close down a family business that had been running for over 4 decades a few years ago, I sadly have felt the brunt of what's going on. And that was when things only started getting bad.
Even bigger companies such as Travis Perkins (a top 80 company in the country) are struggling. Partally because of the city, but also because of the knock on that nobody can currently afford to buy their building materials in the first place.
All because the treasury take off those who have without any thought to when the money will run out. Being as my father had to close down a family business that had been running for over 4 decades a few years ago, I sadly have felt the brunt of what's going on. And that was when things only started getting bad.
C
Charles
Guest
It's ok to have a capitalist system but you have to get money flowing. Right now the money is only going one way, and that is in the pocket of the capital, NOT the people working. The aim of the capitalist elit is to produce cheap in Asia, and sell it high here whithout raising the salaries. Obviously it won't work.
About the taxes: why is the City one of the biggest market in the world ? Because taxes are low in England
Govt is useless but how bad is the British railway and underground since it has been privatised ?
About the taxes: why is the City one of the biggest market in the world ? Because taxes are low in England
Govt is useless but how bad is the British railway and underground since it has been privatised ?
B
Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 11 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
:lol:
Orly?
Because taxes are low in England[/b]
:lol:
Orly?
C
Charles
Guest
O really and I'm not being sarcastic
There is no way you can create the second biggest market place in the world with high taxes. They are deffo higher in France and Sweden at least. You should check before believing you're being robbed.
There is no way you can create the second biggest market place in the world with high taxes. They are deffo higher in France and Sweden at least. You should check before believing you're being robbed.
B
Bullitt
Guest
I shall leave this side of the debate to my esteemed co-owner who's somewhat an authority on taxes here.
S
St Helens RLFC
Guest
20% or 40% if you earn over £36,000?
That's pretty high in my book. Amongst the highest in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. Our tax system is one of the simplest as well in a lot of European countries its done on personal circumstances.
Here's a list of rates but its a bit convoluted. The fact that the UK has lower tax than some countries doesn't make it any less of a rip off. We have to pay a tax to our local councils too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
That's pretty high in my book. Amongst the highest in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. Our tax system is one of the simplest as well in a lot of European countries its done on personal circumstances.
Here's a list of rates but its a bit convoluted. The fact that the UK has lower tax than some countries doesn't make it any less of a rip off. We have to pay a tax to our local councils too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
P
Prestwick
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wairarapa_cullen @ Oct 11 2008, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well you see right, its like when you guys herd sheep. If you herd too many together and they stampede, it could seriously hurt and cost you your livelihood.
This is how it goes down at the New Zealand Stock Exchange/Farmers Market*
(*Note, share trading only on Saturdays, Mondays for cattle trading with tues, weds, thurs and fri for sheep trading. Rugby on Sunday)
This whole thread makes no sense to me. Stocks and shares? Wat r deez thingz?[/b]
Well you see right, its like when you guys herd sheep. If you herd too many together and they stampede, it could seriously hurt and cost you your livelihood.
This is how it goes down at the New Zealand Stock Exchange/Farmers Market*
(*Note, share trading only on Saturdays, Mondays for cattle trading with tues, weds, thurs and fri for sheep trading. Rugby on Sunday)
S
shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 11 2008, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The banks have an asset division called "level three", which the Basle regulations allow to be booked at whatever valuation the banks deem appropriate. And it's in "level three" that the mortgage backed securities have been filed. They're STILL allowed to pretend that these assets are worth more than the market is willing to pay for them. That's why this crisis will deepen.
There was a real fear this week that European banks would fail, with a crash in the credit system and a run on deposit accounts. We wouldn't even have been able to get to work or buy food.
The various states have intervened in their own ways, which is fair enough. But nobody in government is calling for these bullshit valuations to be wiped out. Therefore the problem is still waiting to pounce, and its fangs are getting sharper.
I heard the Germans last week blaming it all on the US - a few days later they got smacked in the gob because they've allowed their own banks to indulge in the same abuses as the Americans and British. Same for France, although Sarkozy seems to have a grasp of the emergency we're in. I appreciate that Germany and France have been more measured and civilised in their internal regulation of the financial sector, but they still allowed the super banks to go crazy on a global basis.
In the long run, the only way through is to set up an open exchange for these "level three" assets and let the free market value them. That means several big banks will go down - RBS, Barclays, Lloyds, BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank etc.
That's the kind of thing the state should now be doing: set up a means to bring assets out of the shadows and in to the light of the free market, and provide a process for bad businesses to go out of business without destroying the way in which we do business.
The state can make it an orderly process, but please don't pretend the state can use taxpayers' money to fix this when the state colluded to cause the problem in the first place.
I have no opinion on Friedman. Markets are made up of people, and anything that tends to interfere in those markets is surely against the interests of the people.
Charles, I disagree with you strongly. This isn't a problem of the free market - it's a problem of banks and state regulators colluding to distort the free market.I suppose a lot of people are now feeling the market's invisible hand right up in their asses...
Well sorry for them but this is what happens when you deregulate the market too much. For years now people have been mocked and insulted for saying that this ultra capitalism was going too far...
It's a good thing for Milton Friedman that he's dead because he'd have had to face a lot of angry people.[/b]
The banks have an asset division called "level three", which the Basle regulations allow to be booked at whatever valuation the banks deem appropriate. And it's in "level three" that the mortgage backed securities have been filed. They're STILL allowed to pretend that these assets are worth more than the market is willing to pay for them. That's why this crisis will deepen.
There was a real fear this week that European banks would fail, with a crash in the credit system and a run on deposit accounts. We wouldn't even have been able to get to work or buy food.
The various states have intervened in their own ways, which is fair enough. But nobody in government is calling for these bullshit valuations to be wiped out. Therefore the problem is still waiting to pounce, and its fangs are getting sharper.
I heard the Germans last week blaming it all on the US - a few days later they got smacked in the gob because they've allowed their own banks to indulge in the same abuses as the Americans and British. Same for France, although Sarkozy seems to have a grasp of the emergency we're in. I appreciate that Germany and France have been more measured and civilised in their internal regulation of the financial sector, but they still allowed the super banks to go crazy on a global basis.
In the long run, the only way through is to set up an open exchange for these "level three" assets and let the free market value them. That means several big banks will go down - RBS, Barclays, Lloyds, BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank etc.
That's the kind of thing the state should now be doing: set up a means to bring assets out of the shadows and in to the light of the free market, and provide a process for bad businesses to go out of business without destroying the way in which we do business.
The state can make it an orderly process, but please don't pretend the state can use taxpayers' money to fix this when the state colluded to cause the problem in the first place.
I have no opinion on Friedman. Markets are made up of people, and anything that tends to interfere in those markets is surely against the interests of the people.
G
gingergenius
Guest
mite, you sound like jeremy clarkson. ie. a lot of rhetoric with no thinking behind it. Come back with an opinion that isn't from the Daily Mail, and stop making assumptions about my life. I work 40 hours per week and probably earn much less than you, and no I don't get **** off 'mummy and daddy'. I pay rent to live at home. No one I work with seems particularly bothered about it either, and they're probably much poorer than you too.
I won't argue about taxation cos I don't understand how it works, just that I lose £50 quid to taxes and insurance each week, out of £300 earnt overall. Which has to be claimed back.
Anyway, I'm off to buy a few £3.50+ pints....
I won't argue about taxation cos I don't understand how it works, just that I lose £50 quid to taxes and insurance each week, out of £300 earnt overall. Which has to be claimed back.
Anyway, I'm off to buy a few £3.50+ pints....
S
shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 12 2008, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You're only poor if you owe more than you own.
This stuff is boring, but it's going to make a huge difference. If you keep your job, you might find things getting better a lot faster than you expect.
No bother if you don't have ridiculous debts!No one I work with seems particularly bothered about it either, and they're probably much poorer than you too.[/b]
You're only poor if you owe more than you own.
This stuff is boring, but it's going to make a huge difference. If you keep your job, you might find things getting better a lot faster than you expect.
C
Charles
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 11 2008, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The banks have an asset division called "level three", which the Basle regulations allow to be booked at whatever valuation the banks deem appropriate. And it's in "level three" that the mortgage backed securities have been filed. They're STILL allowed to pretend that these assets are worth more than the market is willing to pay for them. That's why this crisis will deepen.
There was a real fear this week that European banks would fail, with a crash in the credit system and a run on deposit accounts. We wouldn't even have been able to get to work or buy food.
The various states have intervened in their own ways, which is fair enough. But nobody in government is calling for these bullshit valuations to be wiped out. Therefore the problem is still waiting to pounce, and its fangs are getting sharper.
I heard the Germans last week blaming it all on the US - a few days later they got smacked in the gob because they've allowed their own banks to indulge in the same abuses as the Americans and British. Same for France, although Sarkozy seems to have a grasp of the emergency we're in. I appreciate that Germany and France have been more measured and civilised in their internal regulation of the financial sector, but they still allowed the super banks to go crazy on a global basis.
In the long run, the only way through is to set up an open exchange for these "level three" assets and let the free market value them. That means several big banks will go down - RBS, Barclays, Lloyds, BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank etc.
That's the kind of thing the state should now be doing: set up a means to bring assets out of the shadows and in to the light of the free market, and provide a process for bad businesses to go out of business without destroying the way in which we do business.
The state can make it an orderly process, but please don't pretend the state can use taxpayers' money to fix this when the state colluded to cause the problem in the first place.
I have no opinion on Friedman. Markets are made up of people, and anything that tends to interfere in those markets is surely against the interests of the people.
[/b][/quote]
Same thing really...people are not honest and will always search for self-interest. Therefore you HAVE to regulate and punish, or else free market becomes the free wolf amongst the free sheeps. Communism is a nice idea but it failed miserably, and capitalism is the same. It is not sustainable in the long term anyway. Competition is not the only way, and cooperation might be the way to go.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 11 2008, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Charles, I disagree with you strongly. This isn't a problem of the free market - it's a problem of banks and state regulators colluding to distort the free market.I suppose a lot of people are now feeling the market's invisible hand right up in their asses...
Well sorry for them but this is what happens when you deregulate the market too much. For years now people have been mocked and insulted for saying that this ultra capitalism was going too far...
It's a good thing for Milton Friedman that he's dead because he'd have had to face a lot of angry people.[/b]
The banks have an asset division called "level three", which the Basle regulations allow to be booked at whatever valuation the banks deem appropriate. And it's in "level three" that the mortgage backed securities have been filed. They're STILL allowed to pretend that these assets are worth more than the market is willing to pay for them. That's why this crisis will deepen.
There was a real fear this week that European banks would fail, with a crash in the credit system and a run on deposit accounts. We wouldn't even have been able to get to work or buy food.
The various states have intervened in their own ways, which is fair enough. But nobody in government is calling for these bullshit valuations to be wiped out. Therefore the problem is still waiting to pounce, and its fangs are getting sharper.
I heard the Germans last week blaming it all on the US - a few days later they got smacked in the gob because they've allowed their own banks to indulge in the same abuses as the Americans and British. Same for France, although Sarkozy seems to have a grasp of the emergency we're in. I appreciate that Germany and France have been more measured and civilised in their internal regulation of the financial sector, but they still allowed the super banks to go crazy on a global basis.
In the long run, the only way through is to set up an open exchange for these "level three" assets and let the free market value them. That means several big banks will go down - RBS, Barclays, Lloyds, BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank etc.
That's the kind of thing the state should now be doing: set up a means to bring assets out of the shadows and in to the light of the free market, and provide a process for bad businesses to go out of business without destroying the way in which we do business.
The state can make it an orderly process, but please don't pretend the state can use taxpayers' money to fix this when the state colluded to cause the problem in the first place.
I have no opinion on Friedman. Markets are made up of people, and anything that tends to interfere in those markets is surely against the interests of the people.
[/b][/quote]
Same thing really...people are not honest and will always search for self-interest. Therefore you HAVE to regulate and punish, or else free market becomes the free wolf amongst the free sheeps. Communism is a nice idea but it failed miserably, and capitalism is the same. It is not sustainable in the long term anyway. Competition is not the only way, and cooperation might be the way to go.
B
Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 11 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
However you don't pay;
A Mortgage,
Interest on said mortgage,
Taxes on the above
Council Tax
Fuel Bills (gas, electric, water)
Tax on those bills,
If those of us who were affected by this only paid £300 per month for the cost of living, nobody would give a toss either. In the real world, you'll be paying over 3 times that much per month to live. And more then likely to afford to do so, you'll be working a lot more then just 40 hours per week.
Last week alone I worked 60 hours.
pay rent to live at home.[/b]
However you don't pay;
A Mortgage,
Interest on said mortgage,
Taxes on the above
Council Tax
Fuel Bills (gas, electric, water)
Tax on those bills,
If those of us who were affected by this only paid £300 per month for the cost of living, nobody would give a toss either. In the real world, you'll be paying over 3 times that much per month to live. And more then likely to afford to do so, you'll be working a lot more then just 40 hours per week.
Last week alone I worked 60 hours.
G
gingergenius
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 11 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You're only poor if you owe more than you own.
This stuff is boring, but it's going to make a huge difference. If you keep your job, you might find things getting better a lot faster than you expect.
[/b][/quote]
To a T.
People can grind through hard times if they still have job security because it will most likely get better in the future. If you're under threat of losing your job then you're ******. I'm alright, I work for the nhs... being government funded there's no need for layoffs.
and Mite, does it not help if you get a girlfriend/ flatmate to help with paying housekeeping? Obviously if you own a house and live alone then you're in problems...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 12 2008, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No bother if you don't have ridiculous debts!No one I work with seems particularly bothered about it either, and they're probably much poorer than you too.[/b]
You're only poor if you owe more than you own.
This stuff is boring, but it's going to make a huge difference. If you keep your job, you might find things getting better a lot faster than you expect.
[/b][/quote]
To a T.
People can grind through hard times if they still have job security because it will most likely get better in the future. If you're under threat of losing your job then you're ******. I'm alright, I work for the nhs... being government funded there's no need for layoffs.
and Mite, does it not help if you get a girlfriend/ flatmate to help with paying housekeeping? Obviously if you own a house and live alone then you're in problems...
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