Trouble in Wales?

[Taffelaide]

But there lies the problem. There had to be less teams. We had the debate on here a million times what should have happened in the first place, but the WRU were skint at the time and only benefactors could afford competitive professional rugby, hence we had the five teams that the money men wanted. It's a professional game and we can't keep up financially with Ireland, France and England with four, let alone ten teams.

... will you not support them because they are Kardiff, or because you want a team in the rct valleys? What you have suggested about a straightforward 'takeover' is exactly compounding the problem people have with the other two pro teams. The "I will never be a blue" issue will be a problem at the Scarlets and Ospreys if one retains their identity. It'll be worse for them as well as Newport was always the main rival for Cardiff. It has to become a neutral pro team if they really are going to try to make it work.

We should have had 5 big clubs, not 5 regions is my main issue there. Keep the history and continuity instead of the stupid branding. Too late now of course.

Not liking the Blues as a Ponty fan is very different to having a new franchise such as the Opsreys disbanded in favour of a strong traditional club identity.

 

[Taffelaide]

That's exactly how it appears to me and, making an assumption here, most people outside Wales. I feel for people in the valleys and other places that lost their top teams but in reality, those towns weren't big enough to support pro teams. The talent was too spread out and by concentrating it on 5 and then 4 teams, Wales have prospered internationally to a point where they're genuine World Cup contenders

It's also often trotted out that Ireland were lucky to have the provinces which people identified with. That's overstated. In the 90s, the AIL was king. Games between Shannon and Garryowen, for example, were televised live on Sky in front of 10000 fans. The provinces were lucky to see more than the families of players turn up. The IRFU got their **** together and sold the provinces to the public.

The WRU could have done a better job selling the regions to the public. An 8 year old in 2002 when the regions began is now 25 and won't remember the supposed glory days of club rugby. It's a shame that fans of that age and younger haven't been engaged to greater extent. The potential support base is there as witnessed by Wales consistently selling out the Principality Stadium.

It is all built on sand as the current troubles are proving.

 

[MikeTheNative]

We should have had 5 big clubs, not 5 regions is my main issue there. Keep the history and continuity instead of the stupid branding. Too late now of course.

Not liking the Blues as a Ponty fan is very different to having a new franchise such as the Opsreys disbanded in favour of a strong traditional club identity.

That is what caused all the issues now. The regions were based on 5 big clubs when they were set up, with most of the teams having the old club's name but also kit colours etc. If it didn't work then, why would it work now?
From what I've seen the Ospreys are closet to the chopping block not because of what they have done of the pitch but because they have the most insecure fiances and since the lack of money is the issue in Wales it does make sense sadly.

 

[bushytop]

It is all built on sand as the current troubles are proving.

As much as it will pain a Pontypridd lad to hear... we should've just listened to a David Moffett back in the day! We should probably go back to his outline now actually.

 

[higgik]

How was any of it possible? How did we get to this **** state whilst selling the soul of Welsh rugby?

This reset is the chance to fix the mistakes, not make more.

Going back to club wont happen of course, but mergers need to be done properly creating new entities with identities covering the rugby areas.
To alienate the valleys in the way the WRU has is criminal. The Blues are as soulless as franchises come, though improving now they are at the CAP, though that is its own millstone (as are the Dragons). The only one that has any feeling to it is the Scarlets.

Wales is country of tradition heritage and history, sadly it is not reflected in the rugby clubs. This lies at the feet of those who devised the regions in the first place.

If there are to be 2 regions in the south they'd have to be Cardiff and Llanelli from their traditional grounds. This would at least give the feel of rugby.
If that means properly absorbing the Valleys clubs into the Cardiff region, then do it properly. Llanelli can have the West.

These teams then need to enter the English pyramid system to have a decent competition.

It happened when the WRU were too scared to stand up to the big clubs during the move to professionalism, but told the little clubs to stuff it.
What was created was a mosh mash of clubs and regions, which was not going to work.
I personally think that the clubs were too small to be part of the professional era, and this has been shown by the performance of the national team, since there have been only 4 pro teams, but Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli, needed to be put in their place and told, we are creating 5 (at the time) regional pro teams and they are going to be truly regional, (although I thought Llanelli was supposed to be in the West Wales region with Swansea and Neath, at first).
I would have had
West Wales Dragons (Pembrokeshire etc) instead of Llanelli, playing in Red, Gold and Black
Glamorgan Ospreys (West and Mid Glamorgan) as current but adding in the Valleys teams, playing in White, Black and Sea Blue
Gwent Steelers (all of Gwent) no Newport moniker, Royal Blue and Black
Capital Thunder?? No Cardiff moniker, Electric Blue and Neon Yellow.

 

[KerryRed]

These teams then need to enter the English pyramid system to have a decent competition.

Why? See this a bit in Welsh Rugby. Never understood it. Could be wrong but the English club game doesn't want Welsh clubs, Swansea & Cardiff would of joined years ago if they did. And they surely don't want Welsh sides now as they struggle to keep there own sides happy in the midst of ring-fencing. Is it because there's Welsh clubs in the English Football league they presume it would work in rugby? Welsh fans seem to blame the PRO14 or the Celtic league for there problems. Like Ireland, where I'm from, our game would be uncompetitive without it. Or an unequal partner in some other formation with the England. The state of the Welsh game is solely on Welsh rugby. There's no greener field in the distance.

 

[higgik]

That is what caused all the issues now. The regions were based on 5 big clubs when they were set up, with most of the teams having the old club's name but also kit colours etc. If it didn't work then, why would it work now?
From what I've seen the Ospreys are closet to the chopping block not because of what they have done of the pitch but because they have the most insecure fiances and since the lack of money is the issue in Wales it does make sense sadly.

Sorry just agreed with you in later post, as was probably writing at same time, but so true, WRU was too scared to the big clubs moving to the English Premiership.

 

[bushytop]

Capital Thunder?? No Cardiff moniker, Electric Blue and Neon Yellow.

... coz we're so full of hot air I take it .

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Why? See this a bit in Welsh Rugby. Never understood it.

You can drive or get the train from Cardiff to most clubs in the Premiership in under 3 hours. Instead they're in a competition where they have to fly to most away games. Newport to Bristol is around 40 minutes. Instead of playing the Bears, the Dragons are driving to Cardiff or one of the London airports and getting connecting flights to Bloemfontein. It's understandable why they'd prefer to be in with the English clubs.

Could be wrong but the English club game doesn't want Welsh clubs

This is also true. The population of Wales is just 3 million compared to about 55 million in England. They just don't bring enough commercially to the table on their own. Ireland (north and south), Scotland and Wales has a population of around 15 million. The three nations combined brings a bit more clout.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Could be wrong but the English club game doesn't want Welsh clubs

It's weird to see it bandied about so much.
To join would require a vote from every club (it has to be a unanimous vote) - why would 2+ clubs vote to be kicked out of the prem to bring in 2+ Welsh sides

 

[bushytop]

It's weird to see it bandied about so much.
To join would require a vote from every club (it has to be a unanimous vote) - why would 2+ clubs vote to be kicked out of the prem to bring in 2+ Welsh sides

You're right of course... no club would endanger their own status to benefit anyone else. I think it's more to do with the fabled British & Irish league tbh... I don't know what the avaerage tv audiences are for the Gallagher Premiership but I'd imagine the viewership would increase (as would the outside investment) should a B&I league ever actually happen... though in what format it would take place I don't know.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You're right of course... no club would endanger their own status to benefit anyone else. I think it's more to do with the fabled British & Irish league tbh... I don't know what the avaerage tv audiences are for the Gallagher Premiership but I'd imagine the viewership would increase (as would the outside investment) should a B&I league ever actually happen... though in what format it would take place I don't know.

Aye,
A new comp is entirely possible (unlikely, yet possible) but there's been a lot of chat on social media of joining the Gallagher and Championship as they stands. Just a bit strange.

 

[bushytop]

Aye,
A new comp is entirely possible (unlikely, yet possible) but there's been a lot of chat on social media of joining the Gallagher and Championship as they stands. Just a bit strange.

If it ever did happen, the things I've heard is that Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs would be evenly split across a two division structure (so 5 in the Prem and 5 in Div 1 if you will) with 7 English sides in each of the two divisions too. They've been talking about it for 20 years though... and probably will 20 more.

 

[KerryRed]

You can drive or get the train from Cardiff to most clubs in the Premiership in under 3 hours. Instead they're in a competition where they have to fly to most away games. Newport to Bristol is around 40 minutes. Instead of playing the Bears, the Dragons are driving to Cardiff or one of the London airports and getting connecting flights to Bloemfontein. It's understandable why they'd prefer to be in with the English clubs

True about away games, but just on the Bloemfontein away trip. Really you'll only have 3 away trips in a season outside Britain & Ireland, due to the conferences. Most away trips will be to Ireland, Scotland and other Welsh sides from a Welsh perspective. Also having said that, going from Wales to London or Exeter isn't small distances either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Welsh regions would have to convince every single English club individually as well as the IRFU and SRU, who are both perfectly happy and reaping rewards of the Pro 14, to start a new competition.

Talk of new competitions and criticising the Pro 14 is completely indicative of how Welsh rugby never truly bought into the competition despite having the 2nd and 4th most successful teams in the competition. (You only have to look at all the Irish conspiracies in the season after the Scarlets won) It also ignores the Welsh Regions having absolutely no bargaining power, if they brought the idea of a B&I league the response would be "get your own house in order and then we'll talk" and the rest of the Pro 14 shareholders would continue to try to court the South Africans while looking for opportunities in Spain, Germany and beyond.

 

[Thingimubob]

Slightly obvious observation here, but I assume the Blues are pretty much certain to skip through this ok as a Navidi and Jarrod Evans have signed new contracts this week / last week. Plus there's pretty concrete links to them signing both Josh Adams and Hallam Amos ready for 2019/20.

Could well be the beginnings of shaping the squads to fit the 2 + 2 model the WRU seems keen on?

If the Ospreys/Scarlets merger goes ahead then I imagine we'll see more of this - all 4 centres in the Welsh squad (Parkes, JD2, Scott Williams and Owen Watkins) would be at the Scarspreys, so at least 1 if not 2 would need to go elsewhere?

 

[bushytop]

The Welsh regions would have to convince every single English club individually as well as the IRFU and SRU, who are both perfectly happy and reaping rewards of the Pro 14, to start a new competition.

Talk of new competitions and criticising the Pro 14 is completely indicative of how Welsh rugby never truly bought into the competition despite having the 2nd and 4th most successful teams in the competition. (You only have to look at all the Irish conspiracies in the season after the Scarlets won) It also ignores the Welsh Regions having absolutely no bargaining power, if they brought the idea of a B&I league the response would be "get your own house in order and then we'll talk" and the rest of the Pro 14 shareholders would continue to try to court the South Africans while looking for opportunities in Spain, Germany and beyond.

A little strong there Bro... haven't heard anyone actually criticising the Pro 14... I've actually enjoyed being able to watch every game this season (for the first time ever) and there is no doubt of the quality sides within it. There has simply 'always' (since professionalism at least) been talk of a B&I League... it's like some holy grail that is always out of touch.

If the WRU can redraw the boundaries effectively, including North Wales as a development region (as the Dragons will also be) with the South and the West being 'competitively' funded, I'm more than happy with the Welsh Teams plying their trade in the Pro 14/16.

Out of interest, what were the conspiracy theories when the Scarlest won the league?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A little strong there Bro... haven't heard anyone actually criticising the Pro 14... I've actually enjoyed being able to watch every game this season (for the first time ever) and there is no doubt of the quality sides within it. There has simply 'always' (since professionalism at least) been talk of a B&I League... it's like some holy grail that is always out of touch.

If the WRU can redraw the boundaries effectively, including North Wales as a development region (as the Dragons will also be) with the South and the West being 'competitively' funded, I'm more than happy with the Welsh Teams plying their trade in the Pro 14/16.

Out of interest, what were the conspiracy theories when the Scarlest won the league?

It's not here but Twitter is a haven for Welsh fans criticising all things pro 14. I should have specified that this site is very reasonable though, the B&I/joining the English league talk just triggered me because it's very fantastical as you say.

The conspiracies are that Irish teams throw and fix matches against each other to collectively finish higher up the table, now it's fairly obvious they just look at results and not the matches. My personal favourite was that the Leinster Connacht match was fixed this year because Connacht got two lbps, it conveniently ignored that Leinster won that game deep into when the clock turned red after an extrodinary amount of phases. I'm sure it'll resurface in the coming weeks when Leinster lose to Ulster in Round 21 ignoring that they won their conference with 4 games to spare and it'd be silly to play strong teams in nothing matches while still competing on two fronts!

 

[bushytop]

It's not here but Twitter is a haven for Welsh fans criticising all things pro 14. I should have specified that this site is very reasonable though, the B&I/joining the English league talk just triggered me because it's very fantastical as you say.

The conspiracies are that Irish teams throw and fix matches against each other to collectively finish higher up the table, now it's fairly obvious they just look at results and not the matches. My personal favourite was that the Leinster Connacht match was fixed this year because Connacht got two lbps, it conveniently ignored that Leinster won that game deep into when the clock turned red after an extrodinary amount of phases. I'm sure it'll resurface in the coming weeks when Leinster lose to Ulster in Round 21 ignoring that they won their conference with 4 games to spare and it'd be silly to play strong teams in nothing matches while still competing on two fronts!

Ahh okay... I wouldn't pay much attention to twitter though if I were you, in my experience it's where the unknowledgeable of every subject goes to dwell.

 

[MikeTheNative]

As it's a 'rugby nation' lots of people, who rugby knowledge goes as far as watching Wales in the 6 nations while drunk, think that they have a valid opinion on the matters when most of the time it's absolute crap. The pro14 and regions have been good for Wales, you just have to look at the improvement of results over the years.