Trouble in Wales?

[bushytop]

Looks like the idea of an east and west team, with a development team up north really is taking a big step towards reality. If the WRU can persuade the Ospreys and Scarlets to merge then I feel it's only a matter of time before Cardiff and the Dragons have to consider it.

It would mean two well funded teams. The development pathway would need looking at.

Still in a bit of shock.

I'm still thinking there will be four... I've read a few articles outlining (& it's their terms not mine) two 'full-fat' teams and two 'semi-skimmed'... which would fit the four points of the compass perfectly.

 

[Bluemoon]

I'm still thinking there will be four... I've read a few articles outlining (& it's their terms not mine) two 'full-fat' teams and two 'semi-skimmed'... which would fit the four points of the compass perfectly.

For the time being, perhaps. Think it opens the door for future changes and that one seems an obvious money saver. Too many issues wither ownership and the arms park issues at Cardiff for that to happen.

 

[Taffelaide]

They never should have created the bloody regions in the first place!
The top Welsh (and Scots) clubs should have joined with the English clubs to create a Super League, with teams like Ponty, Neath, Pontypool and Ebbw Vale able to be promoted through the pyramid.
Newport, Swansea, Cardiff and Llanelli were no brainers for the top division and Neath would have been a strong club pushing up.

Imagine if anyone had the foresight. ACTUAL Llanelli v Leicester or Cardiff v Wasps games, none of this regional crap! If Ponty got promoted imagine them hosting Bath at a baying Valley Commando packed Sardis Road!.....jeez so much history and opportunity lost by these bloody regions.

I'm from Cardiff, but grew up in the Rhondda, even I won't support the Blues!

The Scarletts/Ospreys merger needs to be a simple takeover. The Llanelli brand is by far the strongest.

 

[Bluemoon]

They never should have created the bloody regions in the first place

I'm from Cardiff, but grew up in the Rhondda, even I won't support the Blues!

The Scarletts/Ospreys merger needs to be a simple takeover. The Llanelli brand is by far the strongest.

But there lies the problem. There had to be less teams. We had the debate on here a million times what should have happened in the first place, but the WRU were skint at the time and only benefactors could afford competitive professional rugby, hence we had the five teams that the money men wanted. It's a professional game and we can't keep up financially with Ireland, France and England with four, let alone ten teams.

... will you not support them because they are Kardiff, or because you want a team in the rct valleys? What you have suggested about a straightforward 'takeover' is exactly compounding the problem people have with the other two pro teams. The "I will never be a blue" issue will be a problem at the Scarlets and Ospreys if one retains their identity. It'll be worse for them as well as Newport was always the main rival for Cardiff. It has to become a neutral pro team if they really are going to try to make it work.

 

[higgik]

But there lies the problem. There had to be less teams. We had the debate on here a million times what should have happened in the first place, but the WRU were skint at the time and only benefactors could afford competitive professional rugby, hence we had the five teams that the money men wanted. It's a professional game and we can't keep up financially with Ireland, France and England with four, let alone ten teams.

... will you not support them because they are Kardiff, or because you want a team in the rct valleys? What you have suggested about a straightforward 'takeover' is exactly compounding the problem people have with the other two pro teams. The "I will never be a blue" issue will be a problem at the Scarlets and Ospreys if one retains their identity. It'll be worse for them as well as Newport was always the main rival for Cardiff. It has to become a neutral pro team if they really are going to try to make it work.

True, rather than regions, there should have been franchises, in the biggest urban areas, (Swansea, Cardiff,Newport Wrexham),
I have banged on about the idea of a British and Irish league for years. It would have been a far better competition than the ERC, as it would have provided more matches between natural rivals. The Celts would have also had better financial clout in this position than current.
They missed out when the London Celts did not move to the League. The money from London would have been a great boost.
Mismanagement all around, but that is true across all the NH unions and leagues. To much infighting and not enough foresight.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pretty sure the PRL (or whoever it was at the time) invited 4 Welsh clubs to join the English set up (2 in the premiership 2 in the championship) but it fell through as no one wanted to be in the championship

 

[MikeTheNative]

The regions had to happen, although I don't think they got the areas correct. Too much power to the historical clubs made the original areas not making much sense. Scarlets and ospreys should have been one team from the start. It's a shame that fans put petty 'not my club' attitude at the determent to the game in Wales.

 

[Amiga500]

Move the Dragons out of Newport and up into the Valleys a bit?

 

[MikeTheNative]

Move the Dragons out of Newport and up into the Valleys a bit?

The thing is where too? The valleys did have a team and they couldn't support it. I don't understand why this has been done in the middle of the 6 nations sure;y it would have been better saved for he off season.

 

[Amiga500]

Timing was always gonna be crap. If they talked about it in off-season, it wouldn't be ready for the new season - and it was never going to get turned around in one off-season.

If folks hadn't leaked, it would have been better.

 

[dullonien]

Thinking about this some more, I think we should just accept that we should reduce down to 3 regions. The ideal number may very well be 4 (in terms of player numbers for the national side), but as long as they are underpinned properly 3 regions should work well too, and better suit our population numbers.

East, West, North.

Remove all previous identities. True regions that everyone can support.

East Wales Colliers - Redeveloped CAP - Black kit.
West Wales Steelers - Parc Y Scarlets/Liberty Stadium - Royal Blue kit.
North Wales Sheppard's - Colwyn Bay - Green kit.

Not totally serious about the names, but I do like the Steelers suggestion.

 

[curtbob7]

WRU doing all they can to create a Welsh Leinster to act as Wales A.

European 'club' Rugby really does p*ss me off.

 

[Thingimubob]

If they're dead set on big changes / mergers, then the "fairest" option would probably be along the lines of what @dullonien has suggested, with Ospreys and Scarlets merging, Blues and Dragons merging and then 1 - 2 "development" sides covering the rest of Wales.

A lot of anger from the Scarlets / Ospreys fans has been directed at the Blues and Dragons already, seeing as they currently seem to be skipping through "Project Reset" unscathed.

Merging the Blues / Dragons as well could help alleviate that to some extent, but at the same time could alienate all 4 fanbases at the same time.

Seeing a lot of people on twitter talking about turning their backs on regional rugby if the Ospreys / Scarlets merger goes through, with many talking about returning to watch their tradition sides in the Welsh Prem.

While that'd be great for the Welsh Prem, probably wouldn't be good for Welsh rugby overall in the long run with a lack of crowds at the professional level causing issues.

 

[Bluemoon]

If they're dead set on big changes / mergers, then the "fairest" option would probably be along the lines of what @dullonien has suggested, with Ospreys and Scarlets merging, Blues and Dragons merging and then 1 - 2 "development" sides covering the rest of Wales.

A lot of anger from the Scarlets / Ospreys fans has been directed at the Blues and Dragons already, seeing as they currently seem to be skipping through "Project Reset" unscathed.

Merging the Blues / Dragons as well could help alleviate that to some extent, but at the same time could alienate all 4 fanbases at the same time.

Seeing a lot of people on twitter talking about turning their backs on regional rugby if the Ospreys / Scarlets merger goes through, with many talking about returning to watch their tradition sides in the Welsh Prem.

While that'd be great for the Welsh Prem, probably wouldn't be good for Welsh rugby overall in the long run with a lack of crowds at the professional level causing issues.

I think initial anger would suggest some fans would turn their back. But, the teams those two would be able to produce would be much better quality teams. Welsh rugby fans support teams doing well in big comps. History tells us that. I think the real important part would be to ask the fans what the neutral teams should look like, how they should be represented etc. Pointless having a scarlets team 'representing' ospreylia if the fans won't go pay to watch them.

I'd 100% support an east wales team if Cardiff Blues were to become part of that. I think there's be a bit of a debate about academy pathways if this all goes ahead e.g does that then make Bridgend part of the blues or the Scarsprays? I think the difficulty with truly neutral regions is the grounds or where they are based. I'd still say the Arms Park is the best pro team ground in Wales for location and infrastructure - but whether the rest of east wales would just see that as a cardiff team would be an issue. Rotation isn't a good answer as it has all sorts of issues such as corporate income from boxes etc.

 

[KerryRed]

If the Ospreys are insolvent, and won't be bailed out, why don't they just go under and restart again. Bit like Glasgow Rangers or Zebre I think the season before last?

Anyone know who they are indebted to?

 

[MikeTheNative]

People are never going to be happy with any solution. There are still a number of people still bitter about the creation of the regions 15 years ago.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I don't think it is financially viable to repeatedly move the home ground for a team during the season, are you not incurring extra costs for stadia lying dormant? I know Munster may be the exception to that rule, but I'd like to see their balance sheet.

I'd move Judgement Day to the start of the season to try and gain some traction when there is still optimism about the club's fortune.

I'd happily see Wales lose a team if it was best for them, but I don't see the timing as being good for a new SA, Scottish or Italian franchise to take its place.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Only if they own the Stadium and the Ospreys don't, they just rent off Swansea Football.

 

[Thingimubob]

Only if they own the Stadium and the Ospreys don't, they just rent off Swansea Football.

Think it's owned by the council still? Though think they now lease it to Swansea City FC - dunno who the Ospreys pay rent to either way.

Also seeing a lot of people on twitter saying "just go back to Welsh clubs instead ffs" with no indication how that is even possible

 

[dullonien]

Whilst it would make sense in terms of population numbers for the new West Wales region to play in Swansea, I think they'll have to utilize the purpose-built Parc Y Scarlets. One of the issues that opens up is that it's very much a stadium designed for Llanelli/Scarlets, with the name, colours, statue of Ray Gravel etc.

If an East Wales region was created, it'd have to play in Cardiff, doesn't matter what Newport/valleys supporters think, you can't ignore the Capital City, by far the largest population base in Wales. There are big issues there regarding the CAP and Cardiff Athletic Club who insist on the side playing there having Cardiff in the name and playing in black and blue. If an East Wales region is formed it'd be a shame for it not to be based at CAP though!