Thoughts on this call?

[smartcooky]

...might be in the wrong thread SC

Oops. That's what you get for having multiple tabs open and not paying attention.

 

[mania]

this is dumb. so a knock whilst validly going for an intercept gets a yellow, but a forward pass is only a scrum.
refs need to look at their interpretations of the rules.
ioane was bonafidely going for the ball.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

on a side note, really rate Ioane this season, hope the highlanders sign him and keep fletcher smith

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

on a side note, really rate Ioane this season, hope the highlanders sign him and keep fletcher smith

Have been impressed with Fletcher Smith, very complete player.

 

[ncurd]

this is dumb. so a knock whilst validly going for an intercept gets a yellow, but a forward pass is only a scrum.

This a clear Apples and Pears situation.

1) A deliberate knock on is only a yellow when it prevents a clear try scoring opportunity otherwise it is a mere penalty. The majority occur in red zone which usually why it leads to full thing and a penalty try.

2) When has a forward pass ever prevented the opposing team from scoring?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

To start with I have accepted and moved on...but, I think where we're getting annoyed is the laws actually seem to say ANY knock forward is a knock on regardless of if he had regathered and so doing it deliberately makes it a professional foul...except it get officiated in a way that if he had regathered no problem...it should be one or the other not one way he if he gets it and another if he doesn't

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I was watching the highlights of Aus vs Arg and came across this gem (1:14:59 from the clip)

 

[smartcooky]

this is dumb. so a knock whilst validly going for an intercept gets a yellow, but a forward pass is only a scrum.
refs need to look at their interpretations of the rules.
ioane was bonafidely going for the ball.

To start with I have accepted and moved on...but, I think where we're getting annoyed is the laws actually seem to say ANY knock forward is a knock on regardless of if he had regathered and so doing it deliberately makes it a professional foul...except it get officiated in a way that if he had regathered no problem...it should be one or the other not one way he if he gets it and another if he doesn't

If you deliberately knock the ball forward with the intention of catching the ball, and then you don't catch it, that doesn't get you out of the fact that you deliberately knocked forward in the first place!

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

I was watching the highlights of Aus vs Arg and came across this gem (1:14:59 from the clip)

And that to me is far worse than the one in the OP. Yet it is interpreted as an intercept attempt. There definitely needs to be some clarity around this, as clearly each ref is interpreting it differently. (Btw I don't have any problem with the knock on decision - if anything I agree with it actually. Folau could well have caught that ball and wasn't just trying to slap it away.)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

SC is right to say that consistency is the big issue. For England against Wales last six nations I think there were two similar instances one for each team except one was carded and the other not even penalised. That sort of thing is the problem. If players know exactly where things stand, they can work with that. Overall right now I think that most players do have the understanding that they are risking being binned if they go for a ball with one hand when it's a try-scoring situation. Therefore they know the reward - risk which is scoring an intercept try if they get it, conceding a penalty and yellow if they don't. The problem is the inconsistency which these examples highlight.

 

[smartcooky]

And that to me is far worse than the one in the OP. Yet it is interpreted as an intercept attempt. There definitely needs to be some clarity around this, as clearly each ref is interpreting it differently. (Btw I don't have any problem with the knock on decision - if anything I agree with it actually. Folau could well have caught that ball and wasn't just trying to slap it away.)

This incident has been discussed over at the referees forum. The consensus is that the referee dropped a bollock. This should have been a penalty try for Argentina and a yellow card for Folau.

 

[mania]

This a clear Apples and Pears situation.

1) A deliberate knock on is only a yellow when it prevents a clear try scoring opportunity otherwise it is a mere penalty. The majority occur in red zone which usually why it leads to full thing and a penalty try.

2) When has a forward pass ever prevented the opposing team from scoring?

isnt a forward pass deliberate?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

If you deliberately knock the ball forward with the intention of catching the ball, and then you don't catch it, that doesn't get you out of the fact that you deliberately knocked forward in the first place!

...that's my point...but if he had regathered they wouldn't have brought it back for the knock on let alone a card even though he has deliberately knocked it forward

 

[Reiser99]

Reading the thread I think part of the problem is that every penalty is slightly different. Where as some players clearly stick a hand out with not intention of intercepting, others think they can intercept and make a mess of it. However if I look at it from an IRB and ref perspective then you have to draw the line somewhere. They can't spend 5 minutes reviewing every decision and discussing if the player was genuinely trying to catch it. They have to make a decision. If the law was changed so that players could try for an intercept and it wasn't punished as they 'tried' to catch it, then you would have some players try to intercept, knowing they are unlikely to gether it, but knowing that it will only be a scrum and stop the attack. There has to be a line somewhere and some players will be unluckier than others.

There needs to be some consistency here. I would like to see players encouraged to make sure that if they intend to go for an intercept, they MUST try to catch the ball (like Nehe Milner-Skudder on Saturday - he got a hand on the ball and never lost contact with it. Soft hands is the key to dong this successfully.

For mine, if the player just sticks his arm out and knocks the ball forwards (hard hands) with an intention to regather, whether he knocks it up or down, then he is taking a risk. If he fails to regather the ball he's getting pinged for a deliberate knock forward, and depending on where and when it happens, that could also mean a yellow card and a penalty try. The only exception I would make is where a player does this and is then tackled before he can regather.

This for me sums it up. Ioane stopped the attack by knocking on and he should have known going at that speed with one arm stretched out that he was unlikely to regather. If he had and went onto score it we would be talking about a wonder try, but he didn't. Sometimes it is a case of execution leads to success or penalty depending on if you get it right. In line outs when players compete and they pull an arm down. Quite often there is no intent to pull the arm and they are genuinely competing, but it is still a penalty.

 

[smartcooky]

...that's my point...but if he had regathered they wouldn't have brought it back for the knock on let alone a card even though he has deliberately knocked it forward

It only becomes a knock forward if he fails to regather the ball.

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.

So, if you hit the ball forward, then regather it, it is not legally a knock forward

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It only becomes a knock forward if he fails to regather the ball.

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.

So, if you hit the ball forward, then regather it, it is not legally a knock forward

That's not what the law book says.

A deliberate knock forward does not have to be a knock on, it just has to be knocked forward.

(f)
Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.

Sanction: Penalty kick. A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/view/2830124/

As explained by Saffas

 

[smartcooky]

isnt a forward pass deliberate?

It can be, but unlike a knock on, you must actually be in possession of the ball, you are not trying to take possession of the ball.

 

[smartcooky]

That's not what the law book says.

A deliberate knock forward does not have to be a knock on, it just has to be knocked forward.

Yes, I know what you are referring to...

12.1 (f) Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not intentionally knock the ball
forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.

but your understanding is wrong, because the Lawbook itself is written incorrectly.(thanks to the illiterate 12 year-olds the IRB use for proofreading)

We had a briefing covering things like this a few years ago, from the then head of NZ referees (Colin Hawke IIRC). and this very example came up. What you must do is refer back to the main clause that this paragraph is part of

12.1 THE OUTCOME OF A KNOCK-ON OR THROW FORWARD

There is actually no such thing as a "knock forward" in the Laws, just as there is no such thing as a "forward pass" (its a forward throw).

 

[Kiwiwomble]

ok, so the training around it matches my understanding even if the words them selves dont.

what is the wording around the professional foul? is it deliberate knock down or something?

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

It only becomes a knock forward if he fails to regather the ball.

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.

So, if you hit the ball forward, then regather it, it is not legally a knock forward

So by that definition wouldn't dropping the ball forward and then kicking it before it hits the ground be considered not a knock-on? I assume that's covered in another law?