The SH need its six nations tournament

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> I think a tournament with Australia,New Zealand,South Africa,Argentina,Samoa,Tonga,Fiji would be a great idea.But the SANZAR is more interested in tv ratings than developing Rugby. :angry: I mean Samoa Tonga and Fiji would develop far faster than anyone other second tier nations, because well its there national sport and obsession more or less unlike other nations where its unheard of.

As for Argentina they could bring back bill to south america if they had regular competition year in year out.

I think a seven nations comp is quite pheasable.


[/b]

I agree...it makes so much f___ing sense for the good of rugby...but hey, since when are SANZAR interested in the "good of rugby"?
[/b][/quote]

I'll bet they <strike>can smell some money</strike> really want to embrace the emerging rugby force in the form of Argentina now.
[/b][/quote]
Ha...that gave me a nice chucle, Mite! :lol2tn:

 

[Gavin]

Surely if the Southern Hemisphere had its own version of the Six Nations instead of the Tri-Nations, most of the Pumas, Samoans, Tongans and Fijians players will be controlled by the club sides.

If this is not the case it would definately help the weaker nations participating, and also it means the Aussies use more international games to get their scrum in order.

 

[redunderthebed]

<div class='quotemain'> I think a tournament with Australia,New Zealand,South Africa,Argentina,Samoa,Tonga,Fiji would be a great idea.But the SANZAR is more interested in tv ratings than developing Rugby. :angry: I mean Samoa Tonga and Fiji would develop far faster than anyone other second tier nations, because well its there national sport and obsession more or less unlike other nations where its unheard of.

As for Argentina they could bring back bill to south america if they had regular competition year in year out.

I think a seven nations comp is quite pheasable.


[/b]

I agree...it makes so much f___ing sense for the good of rugby...but hey, since when are SANZAR interested in the "good of rugby"?
[/b][/quote]

Good point there it wont happen i dont think.

@teh mite :lol: That is about the long and the short of it.

 

[melon]

Surely if the Southern Hemisphere had its own version of the Six Nations instead of the Tri-Nations, most of the Pumas, Samoans, Tongans and Fijians players will be controlled by the club sides.

If this is not the case it would definately help the weaker nations participating, and also it means the Aussies use more international games to get their scrum in order.

[/b]

The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.

 

[fcukernaut]

<div class='quotemain'> Surely if the Southern Hemisphere had its own version of the Six Nations instead of the Tri-Nations, most of the Pumas, Samoans, Tongans and Fijians players will be controlled by the club sides.

If this is not the case it would definately help the weaker nations participating, and also it means the Aussies use more international games to get their scrum in order.

[/b]

The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.
[/b][/quote]



With their share of the TV contract and ticket sales they would be able to afford flights and accomodation.

 

[Prestwick]

The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.
[/b]

Rubbish, the Argentinian RFU might be in serious debt, but the game is held in quite high regard in a country so obessed with soccer. If they couldn't afford the plane tickets, a public outcry would probably ensure either a corporate donation or the government flying them into South Africa/Australia/New Zealand/Pacific Islands.

And as the for the Pacific Islands, they'd find a way somehow, either that or they'd get help from the clubs their players are members of and so forth.

Its going to happen. Get used to it. The little insular world to which the big three of the South have been used to for so long is about to end.

 

[Ripper]

The Pacific Islands won't be admitted in with the big boys - it will be Argentina and that is all - the Pacific Islands have beat... who, Wales?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The Pacific Islands won't be admitted in with the big boys - it will be Argentina and that is all - the Pacific Islands have beat... who, Wales? [/b]

True, Fiji beating Wales was the only scalp taken. However I don't think anybody can deny Fiji showed massive improvement in this tournament compared to the last - South Africa were given a fairly big fright. Tonga got close to South Africa too, and were very competitive against another semi finalist, England. Samoa put it up to England and were it not for injuries and disciplinary issues, they would have fared better in the tournament.

I read a newspaper article today where a member of the iRB stated that the South Sea Islands won't get a full test schedule until they compete better in the Pacific 6 Nations (ie Island nations start winning the thing). Thus entry into an expanded Tri Nations is quite a distance away for the individual islands but a Pacific Islands composite side (in the short term) could be a possibility while the individual countries still play in the Pacific 6 Nations.

 

[BokMagic]

Firstly, yes it would absolutely make sense to expand the tri-nations. When the current Newscorp deal expires in 2009, what I`d love to see is the following:

1- A SH 5-nations tournament, fearuring SA, NZ, Aus, Arg and a combined PI team. The reasoning behind the combined PI team? Simple really- the sum of their parts will make for a team that can already realistically challenge for a RWC semi spot. Take the relative strength of the Tongan set-piece, the defensive qualities of the Samoans, and add in some flying Fijian flair, and voila! you have a damn good team right there. The format I`d like to see is each team playing a once-off against the other, with home ground advantage alternating every year.

2- Expansion of the S14 to a S16/18/20, which will include Tonga, Fiji and Samoa as separate entities, as well as 2 professional teams from Argentina, featuring maybe a couple of their current stars, and a host of young homegrown talent. If the Argie RU doesn`t like the idea of professional clubs, well so be it. Then a Super 16.

This could well work, but only if there is a genuine commitment from the IRB. For the international period, the top NH clubs will have to be forced to give up their Argie and PI players, with substantial fines to the relevant clubs and ineligibility for club duty for those who are refused permission to play. As for the franchise part, the club pro`s should be released to the relevant clubs, allowing for homegrown youngster development for the emerging players.

Right, why do I believe that this could work? Well simply, if you look at the Newscorp pie, and that gets divided up, well neither the Argies nor the PI`s will be struggling for business class tickets hey.

But, unlike how the majority on here views SANZAR, actually they control right royal f-all in terms of such an agreement. For the record, SANZAR has zero enforcement or decision-making powers. As in zero, zilch, zip, de nada. SANZAR is nothing but a co-marketing agreement between the ARU,NZRU and SARU.

No, the real decisions are made by Newscorp, unfortunately. The biggest mistake SARU,NZRU and ARU ever made, was selling out their souls to Newscorp through the SANZAR deal. Hopefully, once the current deal expires, the partners can get together and organise this better. Or at least have more say in the running of the thing. And they DO need the IRB to keep a beady eye on what the NH clubs are doing with the star PI players in particular.....

 

[scuubasteve]

Expanding any comp is always going to be driven by the money.

Argentina may now be considered a big enough drawcard to justify their inclusion. However, they will only be competitive if they can either have access to their European club players or if a global calendar is resolved. This also applies to any Pacific Island team.

So this issue sits equally in the laps of the IRB, the European clubs and SANZAR.

It seems that most fans, who justifiably want these teams included, seem to miss that fact that significant changes have to occur to make this happen. Its not as simple as the IRB forcing SANZAR to add them, and forcing the clubs to release them. What does Premier Rugby (ENGLAND) or Ligue Nationale de Rugby (FRANCE) have to gain by losing more players to international matches? How will the SANZAR teams benefit from having less money to balance their books (already in the Red)? But, most importantly, how can the IRB force anyone to do anything it doesn't want to?

The only solution I see working is two fold.

1. Create a global calendar

To separate the clashes between clubs and national unions. Move both the 6 Nations and 3 Nations to the current June test window, creating a 6 week period devoted soley to international rugby, at the pinnacle of the NH season. This removes the current clashes with the Guinness Premiership, Top14, Magners League (NH) and the Currie Cup, AirNZ Cup and ARC (SH).

The June tours have become increasingly farcical. The world has too much meaningless test rugby. Some fans on this forum have even go so far as to call tests between World Cups "friendlies"!! This should not be the case. Less is more for test rugby. Keep the November test window, also at 6 weeks. This window will play host to the Rugby World Cup every 4 years and will play host to test tours in non WC years. Tack on midweek games to these tours and you have a genuine money generator with full strength squads vs full strength squads, but only once a year. That would never get boring.

2. Create a southern 6 Nations.

NZ, Aus, SA, Pacific Islands, Argentina and.... SURPRISE, Japan! The only way Pacific Island rugby can support a pro team is to take from the rich. This means they need a piece of the SANZAR pie. But SANZAR is not going to deliberetely put themselves in a worse financial position, nor are they going to deliberately play weaker sides than themselves.

So, for Pacific rugby to get a piece of the pie, and for SANZAR not to lose any of its pie, the pie has to be bigger. Japan is the only neighbour to offer a significantly larger pie. Japanese rugby has good commercial support and a population which is nearly twice that of the combined SANZAR nations.

People have also been saying that Japan would strongly support hosting a Rugby World Cup (which I don't entirely disagree with), and I have argued they don't get enough high profile rugby, or home support to prove they could definitely do it. So, ease them in by giving them the next best thing to the World Cup. A place in a regular, near global, tournament which would also generate hype and money for the game.

Sure, Japan would take a beating for a while, but so did/does Italy. If rugby wants to expand into Asia it needs more than just one big rugby tournament (hopefully in 2015)! It needs regular, high quality rugby, chock-a-block full of international stars.

 

[melon]

I'd like to see it as a 5 Nations. SA, NZ, Australia, Argentina and a Pacific Islands team.

<div class='quotemain'>
The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.
[/b]

Rubbish, the Argentinian RFU might be in serious debt, but the game is held in quite high regard in a country so obessed with soccer. If they couldn't afford the plane tickets, a public outcry would probably ensure either a corporate donation or the government flying them into South Africa/Australia/New Zealand/Pacific Islands.

And as the for the Pacific Islands, they'd find a way somehow, either that or they'd get help from the clubs their players are members of and so forth.

Its going to happen. Get used to it. The little insular world to which the big three of the South have been used to for so long is about to end.
[/b][/quote]
Whoa f***! someone has a problem and a half! Settle petal.

 

[Mr. Laxative]

The major problem with having a combined PI side is that it could take away some national pride. The truth of the matter is that these teams have great rivalries with one and other and putting a team together every year may not quite work.

Also, should you include Fiji, Samoa, Tonga in Super Rugby, would it be considered a test match when they play each other? What's more, the national coaches would then become little more than provincial coaches. You can say let's go ahead with this, but logistically it could be difficult to manage.


Ideally, the Super 14 should become the Super 20 including 5 teams from the big three, then two teams from Argentina and PROVINCIAL teams from the Pacific Nations. The tournament should be played in two "conferences" and every year the conferences are made up of the top 5 teams from each group from the previous year. This way the finals series could differ each and every year.

 

[Fushitsusha]

Another option could be to start letting foreign players play in the Super 14 and add a few more teams to make room for some Pacific Islands, Argentinian and Japanese players.

This way they don't necessarily need to head north to play for the European clubs and they'll be free to take part in a southern hemisphere international competition with their own nations as their won't be a conflicting schedule.

Of course the problem here is the money factor. Australia are more than happy to fork out for their stars, but I don't think any of the SANZAR teams could match some of the French and English clubs in luring too many players.

Anyways, just an idea.

 

[rugby_roots]

The Pacific Nation cup which includes Fiji,Samoa, Tonga, Australia A, New Zealand Maori and Japan is already in place and helps the development of upcoming young players.
The IRB Super should make the Super 14 as so : 2 club teams from NZ, 2 club teams from AUS, 2 from SA, 2 from Fiji, 2 from Samoa, 2 from Tonga, and 2 from Japan.

Blues
Canterbury
Brumbies :bana:
Waratahs :lol2tn:
Bulls
Western Province
Suva :bravo:
Nadi :cheers:
Tokyo :lol:
okinawa :lol:
2 from samoa
2 from Tonga

 

[Ripper]

All you people saying expand the Super 14 with Argie and Polynesian Franchises are going to get a kick in the nuts.

If the NZRFU, which has a record Adidas Sponsorship deal, to go along with it's other lucrative money making avenues to go on top of the SANZAR monies can't afford to keep players who barely made it at the Super 14 Level, let alone the Carl Hayman and the Luke McAlisters, how the hell is Argentina going to support 2 Franchises with a SANZAR pie slice that is smaller due to it now being divied up in 4 ways. They can't and they couldn't, all it would result in is a bunch of Amatuer Scrubs getting destroyed by 50 points for 15 games a year.

Maybe in 2025, but not today, even with Argentina's game growing, any talent is still plundered by the big Euro Clubs with the big chequebooks which the Richer Unions to the East who currently make up SANZAR can't compete with.

 

[BokMagic]

Ah, but here`s the rub: if the European clubs will have to forfeit their star players for a longer international window, maybe all of a sudden it doesn`t become so lucrative to sign one of the top SANZAR players at the peak of their powers anymore. Seeing as you are going to be losing them for a much longer period of time from your club roster. Which in turn takes a (small) bit of financial pressure off of the SANZAR unions.

 

[fcukernaut]

Ah, but here`s the rub: if the European clubs will have to forfeit their star players for a longer international window, maybe all of a sudden it doesn`t become so lucrative to sign one of the top SANZAR players at the peak of their powers anymore. Seeing as you are going to be losing them for a much longer period of time from your club roster. Which in turn takes a (small) bit of financial pressure off of the SANZAR unions.[/b]

I don't think so, there are still too many benefits to buying a high calibre, big name player. Local sponsorships, season tickets, box seats, ect. Plus the added marketing, jersey sales and more exposure on television in prime time hours. The real benefits come regardless whether or not the player actually plays.

 

[scuubasteve]

Ah, but here`s the rub: if the European clubs will have to forfeit their star players for a longer international window, maybe all of a sudden it doesn`t become so lucrative to sign one of the top SANZAR players at the peak of their powers anymore. Seeing as you are going to be losing them for a much longer period of time from your club roster. Which in turn takes a (small) bit of financial pressure off of the SANZAR unions.
[/b]

Mate, I think you lost me here??

No players of SANZAR origin (SA NZ AUS) play for their nation if they sign for a foreign club?

So more international rugby only means that players who won't be leaving for test rugby become more valuable to the Euro clubs? So they'd start paying more for foreign talent and less on locals? So you'd see more SANZAR players in Europe, and less Argies and PI's (who are the ones really benefitting from the current environment).

Or maybe I miss understood, apologies if I have.

Also, neither Samoa nor Tonga can support even one Super Team guys. It's simple maths. Teams need more than just TV revenue. They also need money from attendance and from local sposorship. These two tiny Island nations are AMAZING at creating talented players, but they lack the population and economy to support a team that would cost close to $5million a year, for only 15weeks.

Salaries for a current Australian Super Team currently sit around the AUS$4.5million p.a, not counting the massive 3rd party incentives for major players. Add to that value other costs like travel, training facilities, adminstration, coaching and accomadation for away games and you start to realise that while these tiny pacific nations can easily compete on the field, they can't compete off it at this level.

Samoa

Population: 214,265
GDP Per Capita: $6,314


Tonga

Population: 102,000
GDP Per Capita: $7,984


Compare this to New Zealand, who are struggling to maintain 5 teams.

New Zealand

Population: 4,228,0000
GDP Per Capita: $26,470

Even Fiji might struggle to keep one team up and running.

TV revenue increases when the guys paying the bills (NewCorp) get more return for their investment. Samoa and Tonga are not exactly massive consumer markets driven by advertising and pay tv. So why would NewsCorp offer more money for nothing in return?

Like I've said (alot) before, I don't think Pacific Islands rugby can become professional unless the Japanese market is exploited. In the world of Pro Rugby, if you want the playing talents of the financially poor Pacific Island nations, then you have to also include the (currently) poor playing talents of the financially rich nation of Japan.


Finally, and most importantly, the IRB can't do much at all to influence the Super14. It has nothing to do with them at all. Not to sound negative, but News Corp has more say than the IRB and it is them that yoo'd need to please in order to force any changes.


That's why, as unlikely as it may seem, Japan is the key to unlocking the door.

After all, we're talking about a thing called Professional Rugby. People seems so hell bent on the Rugby that they neglect the Professional part.

 

[Rikeka]

<div class='quotemain'> Surely if the Southern Hemisphere had its own version of the Six Nations instead of the Tri-Nations, most of the Pumas, Samoans, Tongans and Fijians players will be controlled by the club sides.

If this is not the case it would definately help the weaker nations participating, and also it means the Aussies use more international games to get their scrum in order.

[/b]

The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.
[/b][/quote]

:ranting: :rahh: :ranting:
Bullshit.

Still, eventually, the Tri-Nations rugby fans wil get bored of always the same competition. Till that day, then.
In a way, though, I completely understand the SANZAR reluctance. It`s just like the FIFA behaves in the world of football (the "soccer" term does not exist for me), whereas teams like Aus, NZ and Sa does not exist and are always asking for a better share of the FIFA pie.

It will take time, but eventually it could happen. Just a matter of patience.

 

[melon]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'> Surely if the Southern Hemisphere had its own version of the Six Nations instead of the Tri-Nations, most of the Pumas, Samoans, Tongans and Fijians players will be controlled by the club sides.

If this is not the case it would definately help the weaker nations participating, and also it means the Aussies use more international games to get their scrum in order.

[/b]

The problem is Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and Argentina couldn't afford to travel all the time. Let alone a few times.
[/b][/quote]

:ranting: :rahh: :ranting:
Bullshit.

Still, eventually, the Tri-Nations rugby fans wil get bored of always the same competition. Till that day, then.
In a way, though, I completely understand the SANZAR reluctance. It`s just like the FIFA behaves in the world of football (the "soccer" term does not exist for me), whereas teams like Aus, NZ and Sa does not exist and are always asking for a better share of the FIFA pie.

It will take time, but eventually it could happen. Just a matter of patience. [/b][/quote]
You seem to have a major problem with my slightly incorrect observation as well. GO AND GET f***ED!