The Reconstruction of Irish Rugby 2016

[munstermuffin]

People are missing main points.
1. Would Lam be a good fit as he implements a southern hemisphere mindset?
2. Is this an approach/route IRFU should go if
Schmidt goes.

People are slamming profitius for his comments but some people do feel like that. Also people say he's achieved x y or z in past and is our most successful coach for Ireland. Some will disagree as he never won a Slam but that's all irrelevant as it's all based on the now. Also this isn't a case of replacing Schmidt more if he goes. And I find the mindset question a good 1. Schmidt is a New Zealander but has developed majority of his rugby coaching at a high level in Europe.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You can't say he is by some distance the best coach Ireland ever had. Declan Kidney took Munster from being whipping boys to top dogs in Europe. He then won a grandslam and beat Australia in the world cup. Thats just Kidney. There were other coaches before my time.

Nobody achieved anything like the success of Joe Schmidt. Six trophies in six seasons with both Leinster and Ireland is a staggering achievement. Schmidt left a legacy at Leinster with the Leinster academy in rude order. Declan Kidney left a wasteland behind him in terms of player development.

Declan Kidney deserves a lot of credit for what he did with Munster and Ireland up to 2010 and I'm sure history will reflect that (his stint at Leinster crippled the province in comparison) but with the international players he and before him Eddie O'Sullivan had at their disposal, they woefully underachieved. Give Schmidt the team from 2002-2013 (the duration of Declan Kidney and Eddie O'Sullivan's reigns) and I'm sure Ireland would have won more championships rather than just meaningless triple crowns.

On selecting the wrong players, I believe you have a point to some extent. I'd have liked to see Tadhg Furlong, Ultan Dillane and Stuart McCloskey get more game time. Against that, he had no problem picking CJ Stander (out of position) and Josh van der Flier and was fully vindicated in doing so.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Would Lam be a good fit as he implements a southern hemisphere mindset?
2. Is this an approach/route IRFU should go if
Schmidt goes.

I fully favour a more expansive, attacking game plan once skill sets allow it. Are we there now? I don't think so. Skills coaching needs an overhaul at underage level so that it can become fully ingrained at senior level.

I think Les Kiss is who the IRFU will look to once Joe Schmidt leaves. Lam's coaching record at club level is far better though.

 

[munstermuffin]

But Snoop I'm not just on about Style as I'm in agreement that I want the expansive games. I do think we have the skillset in our players it's just putting it all together. But more the mindset. Of playing ball in hand but more so the keys in how to approach game. I think Kiss would be a bad choice but do agree it's a coaching structure deeper down needs reform. Our underage structure overall is very poor.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Calling the World Cup a shambles is stupid too. Take Dan Carter (the most creative player, Irish equivalent: Jonny Sexton), Ritchie McCaw (the most influnential player and leader, Irish equivalent(s): Sean O'Brien and POC's leadership), Conrad Smith (Defensive leader, Irish equivalent: Jared Payne) and Brodie Retallick and Sam Whirelock (Set piece specialist, Irish equivalent(s): Paul O'Connell and POM) and all of a sudden NZ don't win a World Cup.

This is was the first World Cup since '95 where we didn't choke we were just horribly unlucky. You also have to think of the criticism that would have come Schmidt's way had he picked an experimental team and had the same results or worse, a new cap per game for the 6 nations championship is a good rate of change. Countering that point with those changes being forced through injury is a bull**** one because we'd have had four wins at worse with a full squad.

 

[munstermuffin]

Alpha again I'm not on either side but the World Cup could be deemed a failure. Yes there was an unfortunate injury isdue. But we failed to beat anyone decent. Thats because French were poor. But equally the world cup can't be blamed as a failure on Schmidt but overall it was a poor tournament. We didn't choke but didn't achieve anything meaningful.
On Schmidt developing new caps the argument a lot have are most new caps were only rewarded through injury and the way he reverted back for example with McCloskey call. Right or wrong that's why some have issue.
On the experiment call you may be right on if he tried things and sacrificed results he'd be criticised. But again I don't think its clear cut either way and very debatable both ways

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha again I'm not on either side but the World Cup could be deemed a failure. Yes there was an unfortunate injury isdue. But we failed to beat anyone decent. Thats because French were poor. But equally the world cup can't be blamed as a failure on Schmidt but overall it was a poor tournament. We didn't choke but didn't achieve anything meaningful.

Well you're right... It's not a rebuttal to anything I said though. A shambles is what happened in '07, losing 5 key players to injury or suspension don't fall under that.

On Schmidt developing new caps the argument a lot have are most new caps were only rewarded through injury and the way he reverted back for example with McCloskey call. Right or wrong that's why some have issue.

He reverted on McCloskey and won two test matches, there should be no issue here.

On the experiment call you may be right on if he tried things and sacrificed results he'd be criticised. But again I don't think its clear cut either way and very debatable both ways

I can guarunteed you if Schmidt had have picked a load of kids and come out with 5 points the same detestors we have now would be saying **** like "the 6 nations is there to be won" and "did he actually expect to win anything with kids". Unless you deliver silverware in Irish rugby you'll be criticised to an outrageous degree, it's the unfortunate effect of '09.

 

[munstermuffin]

Again I'm not arguing against you as your points are valid. But equally just some on other side can make legit case too.
For example on McCloskey call your correct he won. Others will say though it was at expense of developing against poor teams which is fair comment too. Neither comment wrong.
On last bit I'd disagree as I've been praising Lam saying he's achievements are near Schmidt's. And he's won no silverware.

 

[profitius]

Well you're right... It's not a rebuttal to anything I said though. A shambles is what happened in '07, losing 5 key players to injury or suspension don't fall under that.

He reverted on McCloskey and won two test matches, there should be no issue here.

I can guarunteed you if Schmidt had have picked a load of kids and come out with 5 points the same detestors we have now would be saying **** like "the 6 nations is there to be won" and "did he actually expect to win anything with kids". Unless you deliver silverware in Irish rugby you'll be criticised to an outrageous degree, it's the unfortunate effect of '09.

The world cup was a bit of a shambles alright. It was a complete waste. Part of the reason for all the injuries was because we had two highly attritional matches leading up to the Argentina game. Italy put it up to Ireland and if POM hadn't made that tackle it might have been a different story. France were poor but still in the game near the end also. Argentina blew us away. They exposed all Irelands weaknesses. Tactically Schmidt was badly outsmarted. You also had multiple players out of position, a half crocked Healy starting ahead of McGrath, little rotation which caught up with the team and Jordi Murphy starting the 1/4 final!!


On winning silverware, thats not true. I believe if you get the performances right, results will follow. Nobody is saying to pick kids either. How about picking the best players?

 

[profitius]

Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...n-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...n-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

"Joe Schmidt did hand debuts to Finlay Bealham and Ultan Dillane"

Half the new caps in the championship... Jordi Murphy was also well deserving of his start in the Quarter Final, he was in form, had played a huge role in the 6 nations win earlier that year and TO'D was injured.

Stupid article, McKeon should keep his mouth shut and work to get Connacht conceding less than 2 tries and 19 points on average every game because that right there is why Connacht players aren't making the Irish team.

 

[Peat]

Reckon he has the right of it tbh. Buckley's omission particularly confusing.

 

[profitius]

"Joe Schmidt did hand debuts to Finlay Bealham and Ultan Dillane"

Half the new caps in the championship... Jordi Murphy was also well deserving of his start in the Quarter Final, he was in form, had played a huge role in the 6 nations win earlier that year and TO'D was injured.

Stupid article, McKeon should keep his mouth shut and work to get Connacht conceding less than 2 tries and 19 points on average every game because that right there is why Connacht players aren't making the Irish team.

So Connacht's defensive record should stop their players playing for Ireland. Makes no sense.

As for Jordi, fact is that he is Leinster's 7th or 8th choice this season. John Muldoon would have deserved a spot in the squad. He is a better player and crucially, a leader, which Ireland were badly lacking.

 

[Groundhog]

Would have picked Buckley from Connacht along with the other guys picked and that's about it. He absolutely deserved a spot ahead of Cian Healy. Then again Healy doesn't deserve his spot on Leinster's bench, but he won't be put out to pasture.
Matt Healy is outstanding in attack but he's a total speed bump in defence. His last two games before Grenoble were actually really poor. Get him to international level and watch the Tuilagis of this world not even need to slow down going through him, watch him bombarded with high balls, and watch his great speed and feet completely limited against top sides. Let's bear in mind he made hay against one of the weakest defences in the Top 14, I'm not saying he can't make international level but he has a lot of work to do yet.
Honestly not sure I can think of any other player who could even be argued of deserving a spot. Maybe Marmion could do a job in te last 20 as he's snappy and liable to snipe, but his core game isn't well rounded enough to ever start a game, even if Murray was injured.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So Connacht's defensive record should stop their players playing for Ireland. Makes no sense.

As for Jordi, fact is that he is Leinster's 7th or 8th choice this season. John Muldoon would have deserved a spot in the squad. He is a better player and crucially, a leader, which Ireland were badly lacking.

Well yes... Their back three and back row can't hack challenge cup or Pro 12 defending, throw them into an International game and it'd be horribly ugly, defence wins championships, take a look at the top of the pro 12 table. Their attack wouldn't be anywhere near as fruitful against international sides either, they scored 7 points against the best defence in the Pro 12 this year.

You're re-writing history, Murphy played regularly for Heineken cup semi-finalists and 6 nations winners last year, Muldoon was in a team languishing in the bottom half of the pro 12. We weren't low on leaders either, we just lost 4 of them in the group stages...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Four uncapped players in Schmidt's training squad this Sunday, two Connacht and two Leinster in Quinn Roux, Matt Healy, Garry Ringrose and Luke McGrath. Three are well deserved but there are a handful of better second rows that Quinn Roux between all four provinces who didn't make the cut in my opinion.

FULL IRELAND TRAINING SQUAD


Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St Marys/Leinster)
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Tadgh Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
Matt Healy (Lansdowne/Connacht)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Rob Herring (Ulster)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St Marys/Leinster)
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Stuart Olding (Ulster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht)
Rhys Ruddock (St Marys/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys/Leinster)
CJ Stander (Munster)
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

 

[lynam1104]

Given its a 43 man squad doesn't mean a whole lot IMO, good that Healy is being involved given form, nice to Ringrose and McGrath. Both of whom I'd like to see in the full squad Murray, Marmion and McGrath would be my 9's. Disappointed that Cian is involved, absolutely no merit in that. Finally having Olding back in the picture is nice but I fully expect him to step on a land mine given his luck.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Given its a 43 man squad doesn't mean a whole lot IMO, good that Healy is being involved given form, nice to Ringrose and McGrath. Both of whom I'd like to see in the full squad Murray, Marmion and McGrath would be my 9's. Disappointed that Cian is involved, absolutely no merit in that. Finally having Olding back in the picture is nice but I fully expect him to step on a land mine given his luck.

Agree with everything here and live in hope that Olding stops hurting himself!

Regarding Healy, he's the biggest example of flaws in the central contracting system. I imagine the IRFU can't justify paying him ~300,000 a year and not have him on the plane to SA in place of Denis Buckley who'd cost them further match fees. The ridiculous thing is that they didn't let Healy go, McGrath had taken the top spot in Leinster and was quite clearly the better player and it would open up chances for younger guys in Leinster who already have a more than adequate second choice in Michael Bent. Bad call that's put unneeded heat on Schmidt.

 

[lynam1104]

Agree with everything here and live in hope that Olding stops hurting himself!

Regarding Healy, he's the biggest example of flaws in the central contracting system. I imagine the IRFU can't justify paying him ~300,000 a year and not have him on the plane to SA in place of Denis Buckley who'd cost them further match fees. The ridiculous thing is that they didn't let Healy go, McGrath had taken the top spot in Leinster and was quite clearly the better player and it would open up chances for younger guys in Leinster who already have a more than adequate second choice in Michael Bent. Bad call that's put unneeded heat on Schmidt.

I suppose you're right, however the central contract system has enabled the IRFU to keep the best in Ireland. Would suggest distributing that money down to chain to the branches? Personally while it is in this respect flawed I don't think the system should be changed. Ultimately this sort of issue is only relevant in a fraction of cases.

 

[profitius]

Well yes... Their back three and back row can't hack challenge cup or Pro 12 defending, throw them into an International game and it'd be horribly ugly, defence wins championships, take a look at the top of the pro 12 table. Their attack wouldn't be anywhere near as fruitful against international sides either, they scored 7 points against the best defence in the Pro 12 this year.

You're re-writing history, Murphy played regularly for Heineken cup semi-finalists and 6 nations winners last year, Muldoon was in a team languishing in the bottom half of the pro 12. We weren't low on leaders either, we just lost 4 of them in the group stages...

What about this season?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I suppose you're right, however the central contract system has enabled the IRFU to keep the best in Ireland. Would suggest distributing that money down to chain to the branches? Personally while it is in this respect flawed I don't think the system should be changed. Ultimately this sort of issue is only relevant in a fraction of cases.

Not at all, the central contract system works, the flaws come when the IRFU use it stupidly!

What about this season?

In the Pro 12, the only competition both sides play in, Murphy has 9 games for the table toppers having missed 5 due to the world cup and 3 due to a small injury iirc, all those 9 games have been starts and Leinster lost two. Muldoon has 17 starts and a subs appearance with no enforced breaks for the 2nd placed side, Connacht have lost 6 of those including a 13-0 loss in the RDS where a back row containing Murphy played Connacht's back row containing Muldoon off the park.

Also, your first point was based off last season this season would have been pretty difficult to pick a world cup team based on form to be honest, considering your point was that players should be upset that Jordi Murphy got picked for the quarter-final...

As for this squad, John Muldoon is 9 years older than Jordi Murphy and Eoin McKeon is injured, if I'm not mistaking you've been advocating youth. Maybe blue youth doesn't count because Jordi Murphy has a hell of a lot more to bring to Ireland than John Muldoon?!